"Narrator" Interview, November 20, 2020

Today is November 20 2020. And my name is Sophia Nimlo. I am in Washington DC. And I will be interviewing REDACTED. Is that your last name? And where-- you're in upstate New York?

Yes, Auburn, New York.

Okay, cool. And is-- Do I have your permission to record this?

(Narrator Nods)

Okay, great. Um, all right. So I think to start with, it would probably be best to just get some background about like you personally. So I was wondering if you could tell me sort of about your, like, childhood experiences with education? Um, yeah, just like some of your background in schools.

Sure. So I grew up in the Finger Lakes about an hour from where I'm living now. Central New York. I went to public school, from pre-K through twelfth grade. My father was a teacher, so that was a huge influence in my life. He taught US-- AP US History at a local public school, small, rural. So yeah, I went to a fairly-- Let's see, I don't know mid-- medium sized, twelve hundred students, public high school. Graduated in 1999.

Cool. And then, like, what were your relationships with your teachers? Was it like, did you have a positive experience in schools for the most part?

For the most part, I loved going to school I had, yeah, very-- caring teachers with very few exceptions, I had a positive attitude towards school. Probably had some changes with my-- my relationship to school when I was in eleventh, and twelfth grade, just like teenage rebellion. Didn't want to be (laughs) didn't want to be in high school anymore, wanted to move on. So I just kind of, you know, detached and stopped caring about certain things, but in general, my educational experience-- Yeah, I loved-- I loved school, and I loved my teachers.

Cool. And then like demographically, like what what was the racial makeup of your classes most of the time? Would you say?

Predominantly white, a mix of middle class, and low socio-economic students in my school.

Were your teachers like the same? Would you say demographically?

Yes.

Yeah. Okay. And then, in terms of like, you deciding to become a teacher, like, what is sort of your journey or deciding-- how did you come to become a teacher?

Sure. I-- I always--I think, because I-- um-- my dad being a teacher, I was kind of immersed in that way of life. So I always kind of wanted to be a teacher, I would play like school growing up at home. I loved going to school with my dad, when I could, like, Take Your Daughter to Work Day, I'd love going with him. He loved-- he's kind of a lifelong learner, so I always was just around someone who loved to learn, and read, and write, and talk about history so-- My mom was at home mostly with us growing up, so I think just because Dad was going to work every day, and he was my model for-- what a career looks like I just kind of-- I didn't even like question, I kind of always thought I would be a teacher.

Cool and did you study education or undergrad, or did you do like a Master's?

I didn't study education, because I just didn't want to, I don't know. I-- so I was an English and History Black Studies major, double major in undergrad at Wooster, in Ohio. And I guess they had an education department, but for whatever reason, I didn't even want to entertain-- entertain it cause I kind of thought I would get my master's in education after undergrad. Which I did. Yeah.

Cool. Okay, and then, so the school where you work now-- what-- Is it a high school, like, what grade do you teach and what subjects?

So it's a bit-- (laughs) So I've been in my district for four years, I moved back from Jacksonville, Florida. And I was a school counselor then so my career started, I was teaching middle and high school English and social studies. And then when I lived in Florida, I got a second master's in school counseling and so shifted tracks kind of, so I've been a school counselor when the pandemic started, because I have some health issues and my district needed a remote teacher. They asked if I would teach remotely ELA so English seventh through twelfth. So that's how I ended up back in the teaching role just for this year.

Okay, so you're teaching English this year, but you were a counselor last spring?

Yes, I was a counselor for the four years prior in my district, both middle school and then I was most recently at the elementary school for the past three years.

Okay. So and then what is like the demographic of the school that you're at now?

Um, small, rural, eight-hundred students in the whole entire district. Low-- Well, 45%, free and reduced lunch, probably fifty, but there's always some forms, we never get returned kinda thing (laughs). But yeah, so-- working class people, many families are employ-- the parents work, either at the state prison in town, the hospital or like, retail or agriculture, farming.

Okay, that's interesting. Okay, so-- knowing sort of the background there. Can you-- I mean, this is-- obviously you were at a different school in the spring. So can you tell me a little bit about like, the difference between the school you're at now and the school you were at, then?

It's such a small district, we're literally like, right down the street, so all the families I know very well.

Oh Okay.

'Cause it's the same, you know, siblings, and so the community is really this--it's the same.

Okay. Well, can you-- When did you first hear about COVID-19? Can you just tell me about like, when you first became aware of it?

Yes. Before it--I mean, I love to read the news, so one of my good friends is-- lives in Sydney, Australia. And we were like obsessed with the following (laughs) COVID stories before-- (laughs) before anyone-- Well no I mean, plenty of people were paying attention, but where I live, it wasn't on anybody's radar. And so I remember one morning, I was walking my dog and my friend Bhisma sends me a text and she's like, COVID's in Sea-- you know, it hit-- it's in the States now. And I started getting wor--. I'm like, This is not gonna-- This isn't good. Um, so when was that? (laughs) When, um, what month was that?

I feel like it's all starting to (laughs) blend together at this point.

Yeah. Sorry.

Were your students aware of it at all? Like, were they talking about it before the closure?

For two to three weeks before the closure? Yes.

And what was sort of their like reaction to it? Would you say

It-- They were anxious, definitely anxious. So I was counseling, going into classrooms, so kids would always bring it up. Um-- just, you know, just questions for me. "Is school going to close?" Um-- (sighs) Yeah, they were worried, they were anxious. And then the week that school did close, I started meeting with kids, one on one who were highly anxious about, What's going to happen. Yeah.

What were some of your, like, initial responses to them? Like, I know for me I was like, I don't really know what to tell you guys. But, did you have any way that you were responding?

We were showing them some like little cartoon-- like educational, you know, a Brainpop here, some cartoons from-- that were giving kids factual information about how to keep yourself-- Because it's litt--it-- pre-K through fifth grade. Um, so trying to keep it age appropriate, and just trying to remind them like, "Adults in your life are going to always keep you safe, and that's the number one-- number one concern of ours. And so your par-- your family and the school, we always are working together to make sure we do the right thing. And--"

Yeah, probably about the best you can do. So can you sort of tell your story of like, the initial closure, and sort of how that played out in the spring for you? Like when things started, I guess?

Right, so-- I mean, I remember when was it the World Health Organization declared a global pandemic? And still a lot of teachers at school were oblivious. Like, I would bring up that and they would, you know, say, "Well I hope I can still go to Bermuda for spring break." I'm like (laughs), "Maybe, maybe not. I don't know. But--" (laughs) But so the initial closure, it was like a frenzy, my superintendent came to give a public, like address to all the staff. And he's a very smart guy, and so was kind of trying to educate staff like, This is serious, you need to take all of your belongings because we may not return for the rest of the school year, and you need to be prepared for that. Um-- And so he was just trying to--Yeah. I guess he wanted, (laughs) he wanted us to have a plan. But it was like pushing crazy stuff out to parents, you know, Oh my gosh, we're in a pandemic. Everyone's gonna be home, so give parents every sort of resource they could ever use. So I feel really bad looking back because we just sent home you know, overload everything, every link on Coronavirus for (laughs) parents. Yeah, and a huge packet, and if I were in-- yeah, if I were a parent, it would have been overwhelming to receive such a thing from the school. And they're receiving it from multiple different place--, right, like the classroom teacher, the principal, the school district, the counselor. So it was kind of a mess. And yeah, it was stressful.

You initially closed? Was it just for like, a couple of weeks, as the first call? And then was it extended later?

Yes. And I was highly anxious about that, because everyone else seemed to be closing. And our superintendent wrote something, you know, Well, we haven't committed to that yet, so we're gonna still-- be coming to school. And then it was--it must have been a Sunday night--when we got an email from him, yeah.

Yeah. And then for I mean, if you were counseling, like, I don't know how much you were focused on the academic part of it. But-- were you-- do you know, if they sent work home? Or did it go virtual immediately? Like, what was the shift, as far as you know?

The shift was initially we had paper packets sent home. And then-- and then yes, several weeks into that, then devices were delivered to students

At work, like giving devices to students, what was sort of the system for doing that?

They had bus drivers deliver devices to students. Well there may have been a pickup-- assigned pickup day. And then if parents couldn't come, then at that point, bus drivers were delivering devices home.

And was there like an identification system put in place to figure out what students needed those devices? Or like, did they sign up, or-- how did you figure out who needed it?

Oh-- I think everyone-- I think-- so all of our students have a one-to-one device. And so I think they were all given a device from school.

So just like a blanket thing? And is that just because your district is small enough to do that, do you think?

Exactly because they already had a device in school-- that they were using, it wasn't-- It wasn't--we didn't have to purchase additional-- we maybe had to purchase additional chargers, and some hot spots for families who didn't have internet, but they all had a device that was already assigned to them.

And that's obviously really helpful. What-- I mean, that's really helpful in terms of academic equity, but what kinds of like, other equity issues, sort of did you see? I mean, tell me all-- like any of it is fine. (laughs)

Oh, boy. Okay-- So I saw a lot of equity issues in the spring. So we have many families that are-- parents were literally in survival mode. So they didn't, in many cases, they didn't graduate from high school. And let's say, like, one of my families I was working with has seven kids-- not a lot of resources, and not um-- Navigating the remote learning experience without a high school education, I mean, it's asking so much and let alone with seven children. So this particular family, the teachers would say to me, They're not doing anything, they're not--" Well, I would go to the house-- to drop off things and just try to have like a connection to the mom like, "I know, you're getting fifty-seven texts a day from teach-- because she was overwhelmed. And she's like, "REDACTED I don't know how to do this, I really can't do this, not as an excuse just seriously, this is too much." And three children with special needs and not even enough food on the table. So she needs her basic need-- like she needs assistance with getting her basic needs met. And so I guess that's-- that was one. And how many families were going through that? A lot of our families were. Or a lot of kids just the childcare issue. So parents are working and kids are home unattended without any assistance. So it's not-- they can't get on Zoom at the correct time. They don't, you know, they need adult supervision and help in order to do those things, and then older siblings in some cases could help other times couldn't. And then all the-- just the rumors swirling in the political climate, also affect-- you know, I would call some parents or grandparents, and they-- they'd go off about, "Nancy Pelosi's not going to release this money, and she's the devil." and I'm like, "Okay." Um (laughs) so parents being so-- consumed, like we all were with-- everything changing so quickly and rapidly and yeah, um--

And were parents, like-- supportive of teachers, or were they really resistant to what was happening? Like, what was sort of the family responses?

The family-- the community response was very good. We did a bunch of teacher parades through the community, so a lot of like, positive interactions. In general, the community looks pretty favorably upon the district and has-- I mean, I would say the relationship is overall, really good. So I think during that period, yeah, parents were pretty much like, Teachers are amazing. You're-- You really do care for our kids. And seeing that demonstrated, and like the food drive, the drop off, teachers would go to houses a lot to just, you know, say hello to kids from a distance and drop off necessary materials. So--

It's like a-- I mean, it just seems like a really close community, in that way. Would you say the support was sort of like, maintained through to the fall? Or was there like a drop off knowing that things. I mean, I'm assuming you're still virtual at this point.

I am, but my districts not.

Oh, you're not? Okay. Well, then let's talk about that. So like-- What was the plan as-- like over the summer for returning and like, how is that being enacted now?

So I feel like the state had-- the state required that every district submit a plan to the state by a certain deadline in the summer, you know, Governor Cuomo said, We need your plans submitted to state Ed. So I think the district admin like-- they were so caught up in making that plan. And it I mean, it was-- it was a monster project, which just kind of was all consuming for them, and took most of the summer. Because they were. I mean, they were thinking through everything. So then we get to-- then we get to the opening of school, and we're not ready in any other way. Because it's been crisis mode planning. So, for example, um-- the school was under construction when we started in the fall, it was a hot mess-- like physically the space was really unbelievable. (laughs) And then, they had, at the very last minute, a team of counselors and administrators choose the curriculum for remote learners. And they chose the curriculum that um-- has a lot of issues, and they decided they would train us two days before school opened. And they gave us a two hour training, so we were very ill-equipped. And I mean, totally unprepared-- at the start of school, so it was extremely stressful. And I feel that there's not-- the remote program, it's kind of like out of sight out of mind. They forget about us. And I don't see through their actions like a strong commitment to remote learners. It's just kind of this like, Well they chose it. I mean, they DIDN'T choose it-- for a whole host of reasons. The kids who are remote learning might be living with grandparents who are older, they have younger siblings who are at risk for health conditions. So there's no, there's no structural like, support for this program. It's just--

So was it like, you could opt into doing it remote or you could go back? And then what are like the safety precautions for those who are going back in person?

They-- at the beginning of the year, it was you had to wear a mask, unless you were distanced, and then you could take off your mask. But that created an issue with-- so over time, neighboring districts started getting more and more cases and the health department in Syracuse said, "We don't know where this you can wear a mask or not thing's coming from, but we don't advise that as a health department, we strongly recommend that children keep on their mask during the day. Of course, you can take them outside for a mask break or there's exception, but as a general rule, they should be wearing masks to the extent that they can." So some teacher friends at the high school said it's very confusing because one teacher-- it's based on classroom--so one teacher will allow it-- allow kids to take off a mask another classroom, it's not allowed. Our district did a really good job, they spent a ton of money giving everyone the PPE they wanted, they offered everybody an N95, which I would have taken had I gone back to work for sure. But they offered N95s, gowns, shields, masks sanitizer for everybody unlimited supply. They changed a lot of events, the air filtration system in the schools over the summer. So--

Are the class sizes reduced, like intentionally? Or is it just because there're more remote learners?

Intentionally so that the kids who are going to school it's hybrid every other day. So they're-- Yeah, so they can spread out and maintain distance?

So it's like a small group goes-- every other day? And-- (Narrator Nods) Okay, that makes sense. So they're not going every day.

They're not going every day, yeah. And they're in a pod, so they-- they stay in that pod unless-- although, that being said, (laughs) the-- in the beginning, it was pretty loose with the pods, you know, because we would get emails, "Well, when the health department needs to contact trace. Remember, if they're leaving their pod to go here, there and everywhere, it's really impossible to contact trace appropriately. So let's remember to stay--" so I think now they're really tightening things up with--

Have there been any infections or cases at the school since you've gone back?

Yes. A lot. Well, not a lot. A lot for a small community. We just had a middle school teacher-- most of the middle school is quarantined right now-- so there's several families that-- yeah, tested positive. And then a whole bunch of kids who are under quarantine because they were around a confirmed case.

And then the teachers who are remote Did you also like opt into being remote too? Or was-- Did you have a choice for that?

I-- my both of my doctors because of my health issues said We don't think you should interact with the general public. And I think I honestly just got lucky because my district-- I had those letters, and I was very worried, but because my district needed a remote ELA teacher, it was also an economic decision. It helped them because otherwise they would have had to-- have classroom teachers also teach remote-- and it's just unmanageable. Yeah.

So I mean, it wasn't-- like, a huge amount of concern for teacher safety it was more just practicality?

I--I think so. I think so.

And then, in terms of like a union, like do you have a teachers union that you're a part of?

We do. We have a very strong union in my district. Although they haven't-- with COVID they haven't been able to do much. And they're even upset about their own limitations. Like, for example, we-- we have parent conferences Monday from twelve-thirty to eight and we have--you know, we've had recent-- a lot of cases and so teachers were hoping they could-- they could conduct their conferences from home. Because they're exhausted and--and scared, honestly right now, so but the district said, No, you have to come in for, yeah.

(inaudible) anything about it?

Right.

Has the union done anything, otherwise? Like in terms of supporting for equity, or any of that, or they just kind of stuck?

Yeah.

Yeah?

They've not been able to do much. They-- their letters to us, they say, We're not happy, but this is what it is right now.

But before that, like you'd say, they were really like, active and strong, in their ability to be supportive?

Pre COVID, you mean? Um, in general? Yes. Mm hmm.

Okay. And then just in terms of your own personal experience teaching now, like-- can you sort of walk me through your day of teaching? Like, if you have a full day, what you're sort of doing virtually with your students?

Sure. So I have this online curriculum Edgenuity. And I have classes I have seventh, eighth, ninth, tenth, eleventh and twelfth graders. So I have I guess, what's that six classes. So three-- three, on A days, three on B days, forty minutes a class. So we zoom together during those forty minute sessions-- And then, they're doing work on their off days and on there-- So really, (laughs) I tried in the beginning-- to have lessons like skill based lessons based on everything. And I still do, I mean, I try. But the issue is, it's a self-paced program. So today, for example, kids are in all different places, like one is reading The Scarlet Letter. One is writing an informational essay. (laughs) And one is, you know, doing a verb and yeah. So, to do a lesson is almost-- it's more for me to like, Oh, yeah, I feel good that I taught a lesson today. But on the student end, if REDACTED is teaching a lesson on how to write a thesis statement, and I'm reading Animal Farm, I don't really care. Or it doesn't, that's not how learning happens. So I try to balance it out, like I try to-- to keep some integrity of like, When we're Zooming, we're gonna do something that's meaningful in some way. But I also try to get them to just interact with each other through like games and social time. And I try to get them to share what-- you know, like how things are going.

A sense of community then, like a-- so then academically, would you say you're more of just kind of like a coach that's there to help them while they do their online work?

Yes, and that's what the school said they hired me to do. It's just as a teacher, as a counselor, I'm like, Oof, this is a hard pill for me to swallow that I'm an Edgenuity. Manager I'm not a teacher, like I just-- It just kind of breaks my heart 'cause the curriculum--my kids will email me, "I need a retake." "I need you to bypass this assignment." "I need you to--" So most of my day, when I'm not teaching, I'm responding to emails like that. Or I will Zoom one on one with a kid who doesn't have any support at home, just to be an adult, like, I'm here to support you, let's work on some stuff together. And then I try to use that as just, How are you doing? And-- But yeah, I-- I'm emailing course reports to parents, which takes a long time and I'll write them emails, Here's your kid's progress, here's what's going well. I'll post things to Google Classroom to help them with assignments. I'll try to differentiate things. And then I have a whole bunch of credit recovery students. So I'm trying to check-- just check on them on a weekly basis too, and-- So my day is mostly emailing. (laughs) Yep, a little bit of teaching, sometimes phone calls, and then attending meetings that the school has set up, but the meetings are-- not for remote learners. It's just like the seventh grade team meeting, so I attend it but it's not relev-- like it's not-- it's not about remote students, so it's a little--

--like a community of the remote teachers who you can like, sort of stay in touch with, so you don't feel as isolated from everybody?

My my friend, Sarah is teaching remotely grades three through six. So we are in constant contact, and we'll meet with our Edgenuity Rep all the time to get support and help with the program itself. But the-- Yeah, outside of that, we have a Google classroom where people can communicate back and forth, but there's, there's like twenty remote teachers, but only Sarah and myself are teaching remotely exclusively, everyone else is school based, and then they have, you know, ten remote students, so they don't have the time to engage with us-- I mean, we would love to connect with them more, but they just don't have the time.

Yeah, that makes sense. And then academic-- (inaudible) what would you say (laughs) is the students' sort of status academically? Like, do you feel like what they're learning has any value or, like--

It's really bad. It's really, really bad. Oh, suddenly, I can't hear you.

Can you hear me now?

Yes!

Okay. So like (inaudible) you go back, they go back to like, eventually being in person one day, what do you think will happen to them academically when they're going back in?

I can't even think about that. (laughs) Okay, so the program that they're using, they've hacked it, right? They're smart. So they don't read like their short stories, passages? They don't do-- they don't read it? In part, I have sympathy because do you really want to read nine pages of Animal Farm on a computer screen, it's really hard-- to focus your brain and read on a screen. And if it's a, if it's an article you don't understand? I mean, who's gonna read an article they don't understand for ten pages? You might read one page. So they figured out how to do the assignments and the quizzes without reading anything. And then they figured out that a lot of the short answer things are just graded by artificial intelligence. So if you just put a couple of wor-- key words the computer program will pick up on. So these grades that they have, I'm not sure what they mean. When we have writing assignments, I'm excited because I'm like, at least I can see where they're really-- But when you have seventy students to write feedback on their writing online, when it wasn't scaffolded appropriately, the assignment. You know, I try my best-- But I'm not able to-- Yeah, I'm not able to give them-- It's-- it's rough. And then their quiz, they have so many quizzes and tests that I think they just kind of-- there's a quiz every single day for every single-- You know, if you were in a real class, you'd have a quiz a week or something. Um-- so when they return to school-- and they all say, We love remote learning, we love it! (laughs) How's the transition to remote learning going? It's great! Really? Okay. So-- I worry that-- Yeah, I worry that they're just going to be the-- I'm not the type of person who is like, Oh, they're doomed forever the gap-- they're never gonna-- I believe they can catch up, like, more quickly than we think. Um, but

Like in that same vein do you think if we just didn't have standardized tests, like telling them that they're behind, that that could be a solution going forward? Like what do you think that-- just in your mind as a society, what do you think should be done for across the country, all of these students that are probably going to be really far behind academically, like behind for the standards?

I mean, to me, it's, you just have to come back to the basics of like, What is the purpose of education? Like, you want to be able to express your ideas, provide evidence, you know, think through things logically, solve problems, interact with other human beings, write a cohesive paper, read things for enjoyment, think critically. Yeah, the test itself-- Having anything high stakes or testing this, that's it-- it's not gonna help us, like help kids get to where they need to be.

That makes sense. Okay, and then switching gears sort of-- sort of away from COVID. Not entirely, obviously. But in terms of like anti racism--Do you-- like what sort of anti racism work would you say you were doing personally, before all the protests this summer? Or even just in your building that you saw? Like, can you talk about that a little bit?

Well, as a school counselor-- I mean, I think it's really important, we're always kind of like looking at the school as a whole system, through a lens of equity. And my school, I personally was always, like, very frustrated, because it's-- it's a community that's very just set in its ways, and isn't invested in evolving or changing. And so I had some allies at school, and we would communicate and support each other and try things out. Um, but in terms of changing systems, or like implementing systems, it was tough.

Individuals just doing things if they cared kind of situation?

Right.

Did-- Is that true for the whole district or just within your school?

The whole district.

Okay. And then, when the protests started happening, like, were you still in school when that happened? (Narrator shakes head no) Or you were out for the summer? Did you-- Did anything change?

I'm sorry, we were-- Yeah, we were still-- we were still teaching remotely, and yeah.

Oh, okay. Did you have any of your students like talking about it? Did it affect the students at all?

I was having lunch groups at the time, so yes, my students would bring up the protests. And they were elementary aged kids, so it would be like the fifth or fourth graders who would bring things up. And we would talk informally, but have discussions over Zoom. Um-- my school district didn't-- So most school districts when the protest started, would-- had at the very least a public, like letter to the community addressing the protests and taking some sort of stance. And I kept waiting, we kept waiting-- like, so my friends are texting me, "REDACTED as a school counselor, can we do something more at our school because we have a lot of issues here?" And-- we were waiting for the district to-- Yeah, say something. And nothing-- nothing, nothing, nothing. And so then I would start trying to plant seeds in meetings. Because we were talking about planning for the summer, and planning for the return to school, and how can teachers take care of themselves? And I was like, Okay, well in thinking about taking care of ourselves, and mental health, and we've got to address (laughs) we got to address like, what's happening in our reality right now. And everyone on the team that I was on in that meeting, they were like, "REDACTED no, that's-- I don't think we're ready for all that." My principal-- said the same thing. She's like, "Well, we don't have very many Black students here. It's totally different in Auburn, where they have a more diverse population." First of all, we do have a number of Black students and biracial students in our district. Secondly, outside of that, we have a lot of racism in our community, on every level, and I'm not just talking about the school itself, but the community that's blatant and below the surface that-- (laughs) That the school because the school is the center of the community, we can't-- we can't pretend like we're in some sort of bubble here. Um-- so we have one black teacher on staff, he wrote a letter to the whole school. And that was met with a lot of people saying, "Oh, you know, Jason didn't need to do that." Yes, he did. And thank God he did. And then right before the summer started, my superintendent did write a very like PC, very short little paragraph that was put on-- the website. So I had emailed my superintendent, and I guess he told my principal-- I said, you know, We need to do something for our students, we need to start this conversation. I'm a counselor, the counseling team would be more than happy to-- And he was like, It's too volatile. It's too political. I'm not willing to go there. I don't know what you want me to do with this. Students are learning remotely, if you bring up charged topics when they're home. It's not going to go well.

Do you think that that was-- more for protecting himself from the families or from like the staff in the school?

The families.

So would-- you would say that mostly, your families would respond really negatively to that kind of conversation?

I think it would be like fifty-fifty split.

That's interesting. And then-- after the summer, so these all-- this all happened, like initially, and then after the summer, that's, I'm assuming there was no shift at all going back? Have you done anything, personally? I mean, obviously, it's hard if you're doing remote but--

Yeah, I do-- Well, I do I use some of those-- With my students, I try to like-- we do thinking routines or little critical thinking things with New York Times has a bunch of like pictures that you can show kids, and that spark discussion on topics. So we use those, sometimes I have questions for them, but sometimes my high school students will just like-- they have things they want to talk about. So they've had really great political discussions on Zoom. What's interesting, though, is, um-- kids who don't agree, like-- so my most outspoken students are very in supp-- they're in support of Black Lives Matter and protesting and they want to talk about it, they're so excited. And so then kids who don't agree, are just staying quiet and listening. Um-- which is-- that's a change from pre-- like four years ago, when I was at the middle school, that was not the tone. It was like, when Trump was elected kids in school, who, you know, whose parents voted for Trump were very vocal, and everyone else was quiet. So this is interesting to see that shift happening.

Why do you think that that shift has happened? Like--

Well, my students say, I don't-- yeah, they say that-- they were telling me that because of social media and their ability to look things up, and talk to each other, and watch so many videos, they're like, That's what's educating us, so many of our parents are Trump supporters, and we're not because our way of thinking is being influenced very heavily by our peer-- peer interactions. And just because our parents voted for Trump, like, we don't feel that we have to, and we feel like he's a bad choice.

--anything about, like, what their interactions with their parents are over that, or do they just not engage with their families?

Some of them said that their parents always voted Republican because their families did, and they never thought about it. And it wasn't until they were a lot older, and then they realized, wait a minute, am I a republic-- like what does this really mean? Is this really (laughs) how I want to identify? Um-- yeah, and in the farming community, some students say their parents are voting-- voting for Trump because it's better for their family financially, or that's the perception at least

--prison, there's people working at the prison too, does that affect-- How does that affect the students' perception politically or the family's perception even?

The students never talk about it, I'd be interested to talk to them about it. But in general, the-- I mean, in general, people who work at the prison like the the reputation of people who work at the is that they're very conservative and traditional.

Um, what would you say just like in general, in your opinion is like a teacher's responsibility to be anti-racist in their practice?

I mean, I think you have a huge responsibility as a public school educator, because clearly it-- you can't depend on the system to (laughs) to do that work for you, you have to take a very-- I mean, to be anti-racist is to take a very active role in your own learning and your own participation. So I think, yeah, through-- I mean, that's been a nice thing about so many Zoom opportunities with everything, like there's no shortage of-- conversations you can have, there's no short-- we had a book club with staff this summer, How to Be an Anti-Racist, but we-- that was one of the suggestions to my superintendent that we have like a district-wide staff reading, and he's like, No what about-- he recommended another book that was not relevant to anti-racism. (laughs) So then we just decided, Well, let's just have our own book club, and yeah, that's fine, we can have a ten person group and-- and read a book together and, we got together once to talk. Um, but yeah, I--

Do think that doing that was productive for the people that did it? Like, was it helpful?

I think it-- I think it is helpful. I think it's also-- um-- it's also, it needs to be sustained. And with the-- with the beginning of the school year, and so many changes, then everyone was like frazzled about getting things up and running. So did it lead to any lasting change? No, not yet. But it-- it's like a start that we need to continue. Yeah.

I feel like everybody was so enthusiastic this summer, but it's hard, with everything going on. What would you say--

--there

--Yeah, you go ahead.

Everyone. Everyone is, yeah, on a day to day basis, you're--Yeah.

And then what would you say? Just like-- I think it's a common perception for if there's a mostly white school, you don't have to be anti-racist. What is sort of, like, what would you say to people that have that argument? That white students don't need anti-racism in their curriculum?

Um, if they were adults? Or--

it was like, if you-- if we have an all white class, let's say you actually have a class that is all white students, like, do you need to be anti racist in your practice? And what would that--

That actually happens. Like, that's what my principal said to me. And I was like, What? So I would say that-- I mean, if we're being anti-racist, and we're talking about the system, like our kids, it doesn't matter. Actually, it matters more to me almost, if we go to a predominantly white school, which is not representative of our nation's demographic, and we're educating our kids to go out into the world and be successful wherever they live, and whatever they want to do. So-- to teach kids how to be anti-racist, I would cite, I would probably cite examples of racism that my students have personally told me about in counseling, like, seeing the Confederate flag, you know, at the house on the corner, right around from school makes them feel, or incidents that have happened in school that nothing really ever became of it, because-- there's a certain tolerance, or-- I guess I would just point out examples of-- of times when our, like, the status quo is not working, and it's not equitable. And it's actually if we care about respect and safety and responsibility, like we say we do-- it has to start, it kind of has to start with us looking in the mirror and making sure that we're really creating that environment for our kids and like, what better time to start, you know, when they're young, they'll soak it all up. And some kids, I would also say, some kids have-- parents who are gonna help them navigate this world and then other kids don't have-- they don't have-- I don't know they don't have-- parents who are necessarily going to be able to have open discussions with them, and they want to do that. Our kids want to do that. They want to ask questions they want to learn--

What would you say to people that say like, it's not-- It's-- you shouldn't have political conversations in the classroom?

I would say that's racist. No. (Laughs) Um-- yeah, that happens in my school all the time. And a lot of my teacher friends at school say the same thing like you have no right-- Um-- well, it's very weird to-- I mean, everything to me is political, I look at it through that lens. But I know that in and of itself is not like, if you don't think that then that's not a compelling argument. If I tell you, Well, everything's political. You're just gonna write me off. Um--that's tough.

I feel like, that's a-- one of those unanswerable questions that always comes up in teaching. Like--

It's tough I mean, I think school counselors always try to present data like, Okay, you say-- you know, if you want to say our school is not-- we don't have inequity, let's look at-- let's look at some numbers and see who's getting what, and who's-- who needs more like, let's look at some equity gaps with just data.

In terms of just like procedures in your school, like for discipline, do you have a punitive system? Or do you do any kind of restorative practices at all?

They've hired a behavior specialists who is--like more on a three to five year plan--is gonna try I think, to implement some restorative practices. In general, though, it's pretty much a traditional--we do have PBIS like, encouraging, you know-- so that's helping to recognize, yeah kids for doing the right thing and for showing positive behaviors, but--

--the staff response to the idea of restorative practice, I feel like it's sort of like mixed in my--

I think it's mixed in my school, I think we'd have yeah, fifty percent of teachers would buy in and the other half would say, We don't have time for that, kids need to learn about the real world. Yeah.

And then do you have any sort of like SROs or security guards in your school?

(laughs) Yes. We have one SRO. We hired him because we realized we were the only district in the region that didn't have an SRO. So my superintendent said, God forbid anything ever happened here and we don't have somebody, so they hired hi-- they hired an SRO. Yeah, so he goes between all buildings in the district, which is two buildings. (laughs)

Relationship with like, the students, is it positive or--?

It's-- it's kind of like, pos-- a little positive a little just indifference.

That makes sense. And then I guess, like, in your own opinion, do you think that having SROs is necessary or good? Or like any kind of security? I mean, I think that it's-- it's a complicated issue, but what is your opinion on SROs?

I've worked at-- I mean, the school I worked at in Jacksonville was an enormous middle school with an SRO. And I do not think his presence made our school safer at all. Um, but I think if you had the right SRO in the building, someone who was invested in like, getting to know kids, I think, potentially it could be a good--Yeah.

So what about that SRO's presence specifically made it seem like he wasn't making it--

He just wanted to take the path of least resistance. So like, whatever I can do that I have to do the least amount of work possible and I can sit in my office. So I was-- I would always be upset because I'm like, if you were to be a presence in the hallway, you could talk to kids connect with kids, they would know who you are. But if you're gonna, if you're gonna sit in your office all day, and they only come down to your office if they are in huge amounts of trouble. It's not a preventative model. It's not it's just reactive.

That makes sense. Okay, I feel like-- just one last like really big question. Like if you had all the power (laughs) over teaching and education, like what big systemic changes do you think could be made to make schools more anti-racist and equitable? Like any general big ideas.

Okay. Um-- I mean, I think one is-- the curriculum. And designing a curriculum that engages students more and is more relevant to their lives. Um, or asks-- engage-- like, requires them to be a more active participant because it really upsets me when my students feel that schools just something thrown at them. Um-- Yeah, and they just have to regurgitate information and pass a test, and something's seriously missing with that. So and then-- yeah, like, I think kids need to have, they need to learn more about how to talk, have discussions, and really truly engage, and demonstrate their learning, whether it's project based assessment, or whatever it is, it could be a test, but demonstrate their learning in more authentic ways. Um--yeah, I think that's something that's really missing. (laughs)

I would definitely agree (laughs) from my experience, too. Okay and then, just to end on a positive note. What-- like, obviously, teaching is a mess right now. It's stressful, and everything is up in the air. So like, knowing that, what keeps you in the job and like, keeps you motivated to continue to do this work? Like, what is your favorite part about teaching? And what makes it worth going through all--

Well, I don't think I could sustain--I know, we're trying to keep it positive--but I don't think I could sustain this remote learning experience for more than a year, honestly, I can't-- because I love my students, so what sustains me is that I love and care about my students. Um, and I have tremendous empathy for them, you know, I-- on a human level, like they're experiencing a pandemic as children. And so for me as an adult, this has been insanely difficult and challenging, and to realize like they're kids experiencing the same anxiety, scares about their family staying healthy, economic strain from the lens of a child and then having all their-- all their protective factors are like stripped away from them, and they can't get in the car and go for a drive, they can't--you know, living in a rural area, they can't even necessarily leave their property. So remembering that even when the lesson stinks, and they don't sign in, like any chance to connect and communicate to them, like, I'm here for you. And also telling them like, Having connection with you is also helping me as an adult. Um, I think that's what makes it--doable.

--totally agree. And then we're all supposed to ask, Is there any question that I should have asked you that I didn't or anything that you want to put on the record before we're done?

(shakes head)

Okay. Um, yeah. So thank you so much for doing this. I feel like obviously, everything is really wild right now, and there's so many opinions, but nobody is really taking the time to actually ask teachers their opinions (laughs) is my-- it's like, everybody's writing articles about going back to school, or it's keeping it closed. But nobody is talking to teachers about what they want or what they need, so that's really why I wanted to do this.

Well, thank you Sophia, yeah. (laughs)

Yeah, this was awesome. Okay, so I will send you like a release form and a copy of the audio. And then if there's anything you're like, I don't want that on the record. Just let me know. Yeah, I'm going to stop recording. Do you have any--