Victor Rodriguez Interview, November 11, 2021

Alright, today is November 11th 2021. My name is Maddie Tinsley. And today I will be interviewing Victor Rodriguez, and we are doing this interview over their story. Do I have your permission to record this interview?

Yes, Maddie you do.

All right. Excellent. Okay, so, to get us started, can you tell me a little bit about yourself and where you're from?

Yeah. So, - oh, this is like interview season all over again. So, first-generation Mexican-American, gay male. I'm from Austin, Texas. I'm the second of five children. Both of my parents are from Mexico and immigrated to the States. So, I have a first-generation view of, I guess, my life experiences.

All right. Nice. Hold on. I lost my question sheet.

Okay. I can babble about myself all the time soon. So, for me right now I'm a resident physician at Tulane. I guess Tulane Medical Center University, I never really remember what its called. I'm studying Medicine-Psychiatry, so a double residency because I'm the kind of person that likes to learn about everything. Went to undergrad at Trinity University. Did a triple Major in Biochemistry, Spanish, and German, which really got me interested in health and human experiences. So, I did public health- a Masters in Public Health. So, I went down to the Border. It's McAllen, Texas. It's like Texas-Mexico border area. And then, that kind of inspired a lot of the stuff that I do within Healthcare, and why I came down to New Orleans, to study Medicine-Psychiatry.

Oh, wow. That is so cool. And we are definitely going to dive into all of that later because that sounds so interesting. Circling back a little bit, I would really love to hear more about your family and your parents. I mean, you mentioned that both of your parents immigrated from Mexico and that you're, you know, I think you said the second youngest of five, correct?

Second Oldest.

Second oldest of five, okay. If you could tell me just a little bit more about like your parents and your family

Yeah, so my parents make me- or at least their story kind of makes me laugh because I grew up thinking my grandparents are in the same town. Because every time I went like to visit my grandparents, it's like a 5-10 minute walking distance and I thought my parents met in Mexico, but apparently they meet in the states. So, I was like how did that happen? But yeah, they are great. My mom, I feel like I got inspired a lot about her life, mostly, because she had to deal with a lot of sexism in Mexico. She- my- I don't know how vulgar I can be in this interview, but I sometimes say that my grandpa is like a man-whore in a sense. He ended up staying with my grandma, pretty much last person with, but he has a lot of- my mom has a lot of half-siblings. And so, in her story, it's pretty much like she always wanted to go to school. She wanted to get an education but my grandpa always spared any earnings to the boys. It was never for the women. So my mom always had to, you know, do extra little jobs on the side to kind of help pay for school. She ended up getting, I think it's like an associate's level equivalent here in the States in a stem field. So, it was like something physics/math field, I think almost engineering. I don't know, but she said that she had a very hard time finding a job mostly because she was a woman. Everybody would tell her, you know, this isn't a woman's field even though she was equally as smart and knew how to do things. I think she said she's competed in a state level math competition and got like fifth or third. It was like her first year doing this competition and everybody else was like, you know, many years going through it. And so she really inspires me in a lot of the stuff that I do mostly because she did have to go through that. Then she came to the state's mostly because she had a friend that told her, "hey, like I'm making this much money cleaning homes." And she's over like, "You're cleaning homes, making a lot more and I'm over here struggling with a degree." So, that's kind of what pushed her to move over here. So, I way she could continue helping my grandma and grandpa. My dad was more- he is also very inspiring and that he has like a very rags to riches story. Not like- I think it's all perspective, right? Because poverty here is a lot different than poverty in Mexico. And he has actually done so well. He has third grade education, grew up in a sick home, and when he came here, he's like a very good saver, I guess in a sense. So, he happens- like now he literally owns his house in Austin, which is expensive now. That's because when they moved to California, which is where I was born, I think they invested in buying a house. Obviously they didn't pay it off all the way, but when they moved, because California is so expensive, paid off the house in Austin at the time when it was cheap. Now, it's triple the value. So I'm like, wow, dad like you somehow did it, like you invested real well. And now he has his house in Mexico to because he would always send money back home so he can get a home built there. But yeah, like to him- just like talking to him he always feels astound as to how far we've gotten in life. Mostly because to him, he never actually dreamed of having a child become a doctor. He actually discourage me, not in a bad way, to go to college. But in Mexico you have to pay upfront for University, while here you are able to get loans and he didn't understand that concept. And so he always felt bad. He didn't want me to get hopeful that I would get an education when he couldn't pay for it. So in his mind he would always be like, "yeah, you know after high school, it's free, you're going to go get a job and that kind of thing and, you know, start living life." But I would always tell him it's like, no, like I want to go to college, I want to, you know, be a doctor. I was inspired kind of by a commercial as a kid. And my mom always kind of pushed for it as well because of her background. After I finished my degree- my other siblings are 5, 10, 12 years younger than me. Once I finished my degree, my dad was like, "wow, we can actually do it. It's a thing." And so I kind of changed his perspective on going to college here. Yeah, thats kind of like their story and my perspective.

No, that's really cool. And that's something that's really interesting to hear. I guess, so you mentioned that you were born in California, but you also said that you're from Austin. So I guess which place do you kind of identify as being from more.

I'm from Austin. Mostly because my education, like I went to Austin I think since third grade. Like literally, all my upbringing is Austin. I don't remember- I know when I go back, it's like all small vague memories of like, oh, we used to go to get ice cream there or something. But as a kid you don't remember anything and my living experiences are more from Austin because that's where I was starting in 2000. That's when we moved. So, that's where most of my memories are from.

Gotcha. So, can you tell me a little bit more about kind of what the community you lived in growing up in Austin?

Yeah, so I ended up writing about this as an- after I graduated undergrad. Just because you learn so much and especially now with like the world culture you start re-evaluating your life and stuff like that. So, growing up in California, it was a very Latino community. All my friends spoke Spanish and my teachers spoke Spanish too, even though instruction was in English. When I moved to Texas, we were surprised that I was put into ESL and my mom was like, "wait, they already know English, what was the whole purpose of ESL?" It kind of backtracked my sister in education a lot just because of the teacher she had. I was already ahead in math. My teacher was like, "I don't know why you're in my class." Everybody was learning how to multiply when I was already doing division. And so she was like, "I don't understand the difference here." So that's one thing that I hate about the ESL system is they backtrack you a lot. But yeah, so that was one snippet, where I was- as an older person I was like, was that some kind of integrated racism that you just don't think about? Then I remember, like I said, I grew up in a very Spanish-speaking environment where I would get excited when- there was another girl, who I'm still kind of friends with, that also move from California around the same time. I think she moved a year earlier and she also spoke Spanish, and we started talking. We became friends and I remember one teacher got mad at me for speaking Spanish in the hallway, and it kind of brought me to tears. It really affected my identity as a kid because when we started going to Mexico, when I was in elementary, my mom always reminds me that I used to reject my Mexican heritage. I would always say, "I'm not Mexican. I'm not Mexican." As I got older, it's that narrative, that change where then everybody starts learning Spanish and they're like, "oh like can you teach me, you know Spanish." And then as a kid, it's very confusing because you're like, "wait, I'm supposed to reject my Mexican heritage, but also celebrate that I'm bilingual." It's not special to me that I'm bilingual. It's special to you that you're bilingual. I saw meme and recently where it's like, oh the what is it? The daughter of the what's it called- British king or queen speaks three languages and we celebrate that but us immigrants that already do that, you know, it's frowned upon. So, it's those things that as an adult you're like wow, these things do impact you, you just don't think about it until you start talking about it and thinking about it. So yeah, as a kid, I did reject being Mexican just because of all that. I think it wasn't until about middle school/high school when I started talking to my friends that were Hispanic but didn't speak Spanish, because I also thought that was a weird thing. They would tell me about why their parents didn't teach us Spanish. And then in college, that's why I ended up doing the Spanish major. I had a lot of Chicano- which is like Mexican, I guess another word of like Mexican-American, I guess. I don't know. I don't know how to describe it right now. But I had a lot of Chicano professors that would, you know, tell me more about the history. I got more interested in it and it's just the history of being beaten as a kid because he spoke Spanish. I was like, wow. When I moved to Texas, it was still kind of- I didn't get beaten- but it was still kind of remnants of it because even I rejected my own Heritage at that time, right? So it just kind of put a lot of things things into perspective for me where I was like, wow, I used to judge as a kid, these kids that didn't speak Spanish. But I was like, well, it's not their fault. It's just the way the environment was set up for them and and such. But yeah, it was- that's my upbringing and I feel like I got off tangent, but it was still a good topic and conversation.

No, no, absolutely. Okay that-

What happened?

Oh, I think I think there's a- there's a playback. Do you have headphones?

I do have headphones. Let me get them.

All right excellent.

Yeah, that always happened during interview season, so I got used to it.

Yeah, awesome. Thank you. And that was not a tangent at all. My next question was actually going to be what was school like for you, but you answered that. So, that's awesome. I guess another kind of- I guess leading into that, you mentioned a little bit about kind of professors that you had in like college and undergrad who really kind of impacted the way that you perceived of growing up and just interacting with people that people when you were younger. Did you have any teachers or mentors when you I guess where in elementary, middle school, high school that had a particular influence on you and you were younger?

Yeah. Actually feel like I should just give you my narrative, because I literally wrote of all about this. And that's why I have I feel like a more concise way of how I talk about it, just because I've already written about it. So, in elementary- it's actually a teacher that I still talk to. She was very motivating. It was the third grade teacher. She was very motivating and she was very interested in I guess Latino culture. That was her thing. I think when it was more impactful was when I was in middle school, I had a math teacher in sixth grade that her last name was Gonzales. She was my advocate in that she was like, "why are you in these regular classes? Like you are too smart for this." I remember when I was in elementary trying to pick my sixth grade classes, they were scaring us about like, "oh, you know, like when you go into pre-AP, it's going to be harder." But I was like, well, I'm good at math I'm going to do that, but they never signed me up for a the pre-AP class. Right? But my teacher was like, "that's stupid, you should have at least have this class, because you are too smart for this class." So, I know when I went to 7th grade, she advocated because kind of the same thing happened again when I was trying to like register for it. She was just like, "no, you need to get into all like pre-AP classes." So, she was a big advocate for me I remember then. And that was the only Latina teacher I had all throughout middle school and even elementary. In high school, I've always had- so this is the thing, I've always had teachers that advocate for me, but it hits different when you have cultural ties to somebody just because it's like a shared living experience somehow. So, one of the things that I also kind of have talked about, is that in high school, I had a lot of teachers that assumed I was going to go to college. And so they're like, "oh, yeah, you're smart. That's like your next path, but it was never like, how do I get to college?" Right? They like vaguely, you know, said oh you apply here. In 11th grade, I had an English teacher, Mr. Rodriguez, who- I suck at English and I always told him it's like I don't know why you are interested in me because I feel like I suck at your class. I was getting a straight B and I was like I cannot. It's like I'm not a writer. I'm not a, you know, I suck at reading passages. Even when I was taking the GRE, SAT, and MCAT, those are my weakest sections. Learned later was through practice, but he told me kind of his story where he was the first one to go to college in his family, and how it was really hard to leave home. We kind of had a little talk, I think before school started, but he was like, "when you apply to college, I want you to pick places that are outside of your hometown." Because I initially thought about staying and going to UT Austin, because I was like, well, I have automatic admission because I'm in the top tenth percentile. I don't have to worry about anything and he was like, "no, you can do better. You can do better." You can go out and it's going to be really hard. Your family's gonna judge you in that, you know, why are you not staying home? You're saving money. Like, just because he understood that growing- I don't know if it's just like Mexican culture or Latino culture- you're supposed to stay with your family. It's a thing. You're not supposed to venture off, you're in your safe bubble. But in the American realm, even my mom would comment about how once you're 18 people leave. She was like, "well no, you guys are going to be close." Then right now- I think everybody still- Well used to be, my sister is still in Austin, my brother just got a job and he's farther away. We're actually like eight hours apart from Austin on both ends. I'm on this side, my brothers on the other side. It was a real struggle for my mom because she's not used to that, right? And so, so that's what he told me, "it's going to be really hard. You're going to have days where you cry or your parents are going to make you feel guilty in a sense." But not in it like- it's hard. I feel like I've worded that wrong. It's like there's like a guilt to being away, but it's not necessarily in a bad way. Just like just you miss somebody so much and you're not used to being apart. But he's like, "it's part of your growth and it'll help you develop as a leader." Little did I know that yeah, it was a thing. He told me to apply to Trinity University and then when it came to financial aid time, I was like, well I can't go there. It's a private school. It's 55 thousand dollars a year. There's no way I can afford it. UT is giving me a full ride. He was like, "no, no, no, you email them back and you tell them 'Can you have more?' 'Can you give me more money?' They are private institutions, they have money." So I was like, okay, I guess. So I literally did all he said and I pretty much got a full ride to go to Trinity. What is it, I had to take three thousand dollars in loan a year, but in comparison to 55,00? I was like, I got a triple major, double degree at a private university. To me that was- my parents were like, "wow, you somehow did it?" And I even surprise myself, right? Then it was that thing where it took somebody that shared that cultural experience, that understood my journey, and showed me how. He gave me advice on how to do it rather than, "this is expected of you." You know? So to me, that was a lot. And I know I've reached out to him, because I kind of lost contact with him, but I know he teaches at the local community college. I sent him emails. I don't know if he remembers me, but I remember him a lot just because of that.

That's so cool. That's just so cool that you had someone to advocate for you in that way. Also side note, I almost went to Trinity.

I love Trinity.

It was really cool. It was really cool. LSU won but it was hard to say no to Trinity. But anyway, kind of off of that point, as we transition to talking more about your interest and experiences in medicine, did you have any particular experiences with doctors or other health providers when you were younger that made an impression on you?

Also, part of my story. So, there is this- and a lot of med students that are Latino know about him because it was a very inspirational. I think it was a commercial that came out at the same time that we all just like, "wow, that's who I want to be." So, every Hispanic Heritage Month, Univision, which is the major Spanish network, will do snippets of this is am awesome Latino doing great things. And so he's a neurosurgeon, I think now MAYO. Probably chair or something. I wouldn't doubt it, but he grew up in Mexico. Then he was a migrant farm worker and he was really curious about the world and ended up going to Berkeley. I think- Berkeley and then got accepted to Harvard Med and then did his residency at Johns Hopkins. So those famous institutions are saved in your head forever. Like, wow, these are amazing institutions and you did it as a migrant farm worker. So, in my personal story, I always joke that my parents would always tell me that I was going to be a popsicle man. A paletero, which is like, you know, the street popsicle people. Because they're like, well, yeah, because you really like them. And, you know, as a kid, I guess you imagine eating them. But I know around age five to seven when I saw that commercial, I was like, wow! Somebody like me was able to do that, right? I didn't have a personal role model that, you know, had any like big career like that because all my parents are- my parents and the rest of my family are immigrants. So, it was kind of like, wow, if he could do it, you know, I think I can do it too. So, that kind of set the stepping stone of "I need to go to college." The "I know how to get to college" was the hard part, which I already explained. But yeah, so he was a big key figure. When I was an undergrad that was the very hard thing, because I didn't have connections. That's where I learned, kind of how to network. I have a very, I guess talkative personality. I don't know. I just enjoy meeting new people and I remember in Trinity they would push a lot to network. To me, I was kind of like, well, I guess I kind of do it in that I like to meet people. But they're like, "yes, but also know that somebody always has something to offer." And then later on in life I learned that everybody wants to help but a lot of people are afraid to ask for help and that's what inhibits a lot of this stuff. So I was like, you know what, worse thing somebody can tell me is no. So, as an undergrad, I had a hard time. I sent out emails to have shadowing opportunities and nobody reached out and what not. I even physically went to a place and left a resume and then they never called. It was like walking distance from Trinity. And then, my junior year is kind of when- it kind of hopefully- or at least I think it went up hill. I meant one of my best friend's who was also inspirational in helping me lose weight, but also his dad is a neurosurgeon down in the border. He's Latino, so it was really cool for me to see that. So, I helped him out a lot. I was his RA and I helped him out in chemistry, biology and he was like, "well, you helped me so much. I don't even know how to repay." I was like, "you know, dude you're my friend, that's what I do. I'm not asking you for anything." And then he just threw out like, "well, my dad's a neurosurgeon, if you ever need anything." And I was like, "...well, maybe." So yeah, his dad was nice enough to let me shadow. So I had my first shadowing gig and then slowly I started meeting more people. Just going down to the border kind of inspired me to do my Public Health Masters down there. So, I didn't do well on my MCAT. As I stated earlier was literally just the verbal reasoning section. All my sciences were in the 90th, 85th percentile where I was like, "wow, because I cannot do well on this verbal section, I cannot go to med school." So I did my Public Health Masters because I was planning on doing the MD/MPH anyways. So, I went down to the border and the border is kind of a third world country. At least down there. It's like a third world country within the the Border, because I mean every time I go to Mexico it's like some of these conditions are very similar, right? There's little patches down in the Border where they're literally not connected- They're called Colonias and they're not connected to any city infrastructure. No sewage, no running water, no electricity. So, people literally kind of make their way- they will connect from the nearest electrical pole or their nearest neighbor, they will have a cable down to their house. So, that way at least have they have some kind of power. Some of the houses are trailers and some are super run down. There's like a whole history on Colonias to, just the way they started up, that I learned when I was down there. But yeah, it really inspired me to go down there and learn a lot more about how I can do public health in underserved communities. Especially in Latino communities. That was also an obstacle in trying to figure out where I wanted to go to school because I was like, "Columbia?" I was very excited I got accepted into an Ivy League but was like, "Columbia or go to the border?" I was like, Columbia is too expensive and they won't give me scholarship. But to me it told me a lot because you don't need a name school to do great things, right? And the other thing was that if I wanted to work in the Latino Community, specifically in a Mexican Community, why am I going up North? Why not go where the people are. So, yep.

No, that's- again, everything that you are saying is really fascinating. The the work that you did with your Master's in public health and some of the things that that brought up with wanting to work in Latino communities, definitely going to come to back to that later. I have a couple of questions that go along with that. Kind of circling back a little bit to this decision to pursue medicine and go to medical school, you touched on earlier your family's and your dad's response to you pursuing college and higher education. What was your family's response specifically to your decision to go into medical school and pursue being a doctor?

So, because they don't understand the pathway here that's what really trip them up. So, in Mexico and I guess the rest of the world, you legit go from high school to med school and here we have the extra step of going to undergrad. So they were always like, "why are going to college? Why aren't you going to medical school?" Right? And then when I did my MPH it was like, "why are you doing that? Weren't you going to go to medical school?" And I was like, "yes, but here's there's just like so many obstacles into getting into medical school that just makes it harder." And they didn't really understand that. Even when I was matching, too. In Texas, we do like the Texas match to get into med school. They were like- I think a D.O. [Osteopathic] school accepted me first and they were like, "but I thought you wanted to be an MD" and I was like, "but they're both doctors." I don't know. It was very funny, but it's just they- When I was going through college, they I guess we're excited for me to go that pathway, but they were so confused along the way as to like, you know, why are you doing this instead of that? Why are you studying that? I thought you wanted to do this? So it was a very hard thing to maneuver with them. So, when it came to education, it was more of like I sought my advice from my- I had a mentor in undergrad, Doctor Blystone who is from El Paso, and he kind of told me a lot about the path. He was my advocate. He was like, I know you're great for med school and he understood my whole verbal reasoning. Oh God, I still remember my first class with him where he literally told me, "I'm giving you a C on this paper because I know you tried really hard on it." That hurt so much but he knew that like, "you will do great in medicine, you just need somebody to like help you and move you along the way." I always find mentors along the way and it kind of helps balance the, you know, your family kind of questioning why you do certain things. And I've run into other friends that happen the same way where they get discouraged from medicine and it's because of their parents. Because here, like I said, we have that extra obstacle of going into undergrad and when they struggle within the first two years of biology they're like, "well, if you're interested in medicine and biology, why are you sucking at it?" You know? I'm like, that's not what you tell your kids kind of thing. So I've had a lot of friends that kind of get discouraged from it and they stopped. But yeah, that's like another side note, maybe, I guess. I don't know.

Nothing is a side note. Really. In the context of an oral history that would be very hard because we want to learn about you. So, you mentioned right there this idea of friends that you had being discouraged in like going in pursuing medicine and the question I have is kind of on that. So, according to the American Association of Medical Colleges only five-point-eight percent of doctors currently operating in the US identify as Hispanic or Latino. So, thinking back to this period of being in undergrad, deciding that you really wanted to pursue medicine, did you kind of perceive your identity as as a Mexican-American potentially affecting your opportunities in the medical field?

At the time it was scary but motivating. Now having gone through a lot of it, it definitely was reinvigorating that I want to do more. So, I was part of the Latino Medical Student Association, both the regional leader and national- I was a national vice-president, and the thing about that statistics that always gets me is we have to remember the context that we have I think four Puerto Rican medical schools. So, you can imagine how much lower that number is in the 50 United States because those medical schools count as part of the US. So you can only imagine the actual number of actual Latinos in the United States, the 50 United States are actually Hispanic identifying. The other thing that gets frustrating as a medical student and why I really like my organization, the Latino Medical Student Association, is that when you go to these conferences, you meet up with people that kind of had the same- And it's hard, like I said to judge somebody based on their identity because you don't know their experience, you don't know their struggle, but there's a lot of us that feel that when people go to med school or apply they just do like check boxing. I'm Latino, but they have no cultural reference to it. So that can get very frustrating in that. how are you saying that you're Latino when you do nothing in context. I feel like the reason why medical schools want Latino medical students is that- It's like a weird thing, because I actually got to serve in the admissions committee and sometimes I feel like they're trying to either reach your quota or they want people to be able to work in underserved communities. And the other thing that really got me was when they were judging this one applicant based on like, "oh, does even work in diverse settings" and I was like, wait, have I even worked in diverse settings? Because I work in Latino communities, that's not diverse to me. That's my community. But to you, that's diverse. You know, the context of how we think about things. I think you're just wanting somebody that wants to work in these communities that we've created very terrible situations for that you don't want to address and you don't want to work at, but you want these applicants that go work out there. So there's I know literature out on there too that says why medical schools want diversity is because they're more willing to work in these underserved communities. And like, yes this where I want to work, but it's frustrating that, you know, other people created this problem and you want me to address this, right? You were the one that created the problem. Why aren't you addressing this? And your scapegoat is getting these applicants. And so it's like there's this mixed drama amongst applicants where they tell you "oh, you know, you got accepted because you're a minority, right?" And that's very frustrating because I'm also like, but my dad wasn't a doctor. You had the best preparation for this. You don't have to worry about you know paying for school. You don't have to worry about these things that I had to do. Like my friend, the one that has the doctor dad, one thing that really struck me was, he told me, like," why do you have those three jobs? Why don't you go out to party as much as I do?" Because I have to hold on to a scholarship. Your dad's paying literally for everything and I have to hold onto my scholarship plus have that extra spending money to do whatever it is that I want to do with my friends because my parents are not paying for anything. And so it's like that- It's like a weird realm of just being a Latino medical student of you're excited to work with your community but then you question was I accepted because you're trying to fill a quota and work in these diverse settings, but to me, it's not diverse because it's my community, its diverse you because it's different to you. But yeah, I feel like I lost my train of thought in the question, but that's like a lot of what I experienced as a medical student when it came to diversity. The more that I learned with being with the Latino Medical Students Association, there's no recorded history for Latino physicians. So this year we're starting, or hopefully going to get it published soon, our own book on organization. I wrote the Southwest chapter. Our region when it comes to leadership is the youngest. I think we've had- by the time I graduated we were on the ninth or the tenth annual conference that we've had as a region. While up north, I think they were more established and they're going on- like this year we're celebrating our 50th Anniversary as an organization. So, imagine this organization is fifty years old, but our region down here we're just like on our ninth. Even though we're a national, it all started up north and here is just kind of lagging behind. Even here in New Orleans, I've met so many Latino Physicians, but a lot of them are like, "I haven't met anybody else." It's just because we were so split up. Right now, that's my work here, at least. That's what I'm enjoying here is kind of pulling everybody together. I've already had a social here in my apartment, kind of trying to get people networking and meeting each other, because that's what it is. You find your little niche and stick to it, but it helps to provide kind of like a support of "you went through the same experience and you understand my struggle." Kind of like how it was when applying to a college right? Like, you understand my path and my journey that nobody else would. So it kind of helped create that unity, because it still reminds me of- just going back to like the cost of things. I have a classmate that went to med school with me and now he is here in residency. He told me about my apartment complex, which is great. It's a little expensive, but I'm like "we'll see, we'll see how I survived." But he lives in the one next door, and he got a two bedroom apartment and it's a lot more expensive. I'm like, "how are you affording this with the resident salary?" And he's like, "oh, my parents are helping me pay for it." I was like, oh my God, I'm over here literally freaking out if I'm gonna have enough for my next paycheck, but you're literally using all your paycheck to yourself. So, it jus one of those kinds of things thats frustrating about medicine because there's not only the diversity gap, but there's also socio-economic gaps and that ends up being tied together a lot. I was very frustrated on our first meeting with our med school because me and my co intern, she's a black woman and kind of has the same immigrant background and understood some of the same issues so we love each other already. But my first question to everybody, and I had to put myself as an anonymous because it's like I don't want to make enemies yet, but I was the first one to be like, "so, I'm here for two months without a paycheck, how am I supposed to survive? How am I supposed to pay rent?" And literally their response was, oh, "I didn't know that was an issue." I'm like, how? How is- how? How did you not know that was an issue? And it kind of tells you- to me it told me a lot of what kind of students are you bringing to this place. Either they're not advocating for themselves or they have mommy and daddy to be paying for their life while they're here, you know. So those are some of the things that I've experienced in medicine that are fun.

Oh, wow. That last point. Wow. Thank you for talking about all that. That was really cool to hear your story and your perspective on that because there's some things that I didn't think about. So that's really interesting and I definitely have made a note because we're going to circle back to a few of those points later. Transitioning a little bit again, just to kind of talk specifically about your experience in medical school. Just real quick, can you stay where you went to medical school again and why did you choose that school?

Yeah, so I went to A&M University College of Medicine. The way our program works is we start off in College Station, which is right in the middle between Austin and Houston in a very rural location, but we were only there for a year and a half and then we split off into different campuses. I ended up doing the rest of my medical school training in Houston a Houston Methodist. So it's like we still get our didactics from A&M but the clinical setting is all in Houston for me. There was another question there?

Why did you choose that school?

Gotcha. So for me, I think I was trying to pick a place that- I guess for me, I really enjoyed the small learning environment. So I really enjoyed that from Trinity. My classes were literally small, like my German class. My professors were nice enough, to be like, "we can make a class of one because you need to graduate." Like legit. So I enjoy that very close-knit learning because I feel I have the attention that I need. When I did my master's program, it was kind of the same thing. Yes, A&M has a main campus but the Border program was a cohort of twelve or fifth-teen. I got to know my faculty really well, and I got to learn stuff one-on-one with them, if that makes sense. I got to learn all the- I guess ancillary staff, like the people that do your scheduling and stuff like that, I become friends with them. That's the other thing that I noticed in med school that I will probably bring up a bit, but that's what I also enjoyed about med school is that when we split off into campuses you have that smaller group of people that you're working with. So you get to know your cohort a little bit better and you get to know the staff and faculty a lot better. The reason why I mention that is because we also attract a certain kind of people to med school, I guess because all the ancillary staff enjoyed talking to me. They're like, "wow, you treat me like a person, everybody just comes to me because they need something fixed and you're over here talking to me about my life." So, I literally became friends with some of them that when I did need something, I was like, hey can you squeeze me into this rotation because I kind of you know, want to do that." They're like, "oh, yeah, let me check" and they would literally do things for me. I think for them it was also exciting because they were Latinas and they're like, "wow, yes, another Latino doctor, that's great" kind of thing. So it's just kind of helping out your community and having another cheerleader behind your back. It always reminds you that, like, it doesn't matter where you're from, what your background, or where you're going. You have to treat people. Because to me that told me a lot when they told me that "you know, I'm just somebody for them, like a servant in a sense. I'm just their scheduler." And I'm like, "no, they're people, get to know them."

No, that's really cool. That's really important statement. Just a couple of like quick little things. When did you graduate from medical?

I just graduated this past spring 2021. May 2021.

Gotcha. And can you state again what field you specialized in or what you are of currently doing your residency in?

Yeah, so my residency is Internal Medicine and Psychiatry. So I'm doing two residencies in one

Wow, okay.

Let me get my treasure because it's going to die. But yes, as you can tell: a triple Major, two degrees, Masters in medicine. I enjoy learning. I like learning

Oh, that's awesome. Can you tell me a some more about what your experience was like in medical school and particularly what the community was like at the medical school that you were in.

Yeah, the community that I had in med school, I really enjoyed. It was very supportive. I'm actually going to throw my friend under the bus here, but I love this quote that I will never forget. So in my, in med school, my community ended up being pretty much my anatomy group. I remember that he told me, "Wow, this is the most diverse friends I've ever had." And I was like bro. Or he thought our med school was very diverse, that's what he said. And I was like, "wait, wait, what?" I'm over here thinking that I'm here surrounded in a sea of the same people. Literally, there were three girls that I thought were the same person. Because they're like these blonde girls that I was like- I felt so bad because I saw them all the time and I thought they were the same person until they were all three in the same room and it's like, oh my God. But he's like, "oh my God, this is the most diverse group" and I was like, "no, we're not, I think it's just the people that you're hanging out with." And I don't know if it was like, that's what happened. Because we all kind of clustered with each other, if that makes sense. It was like, Sebastian, he's Peruvian. Taylor, she's black. Michael was black. Melin was Filipina and I think we just hung out with each other a lot that to him, that was diverse. which is great, but I'm also like in the larger context we are not a diverse school. So I thought it was really funny and I had to put that in perspective for him. But no, I had a really good supportive group of friends. I ended up becoming the voice of the Latinos, which I hated and light at the same time, because of all my border experience. I feel like I learned a lot in my Master's, but I also there were three other people here in this class that are actually from the border. I only worked there for two years. I learned a lot, but I'm not from there. So I was like, "I don't know why y'all are like having me as an advocate for their community." That's not how this works. Even then like, I don't think I should be responsible or they should be responsible to speak on behalf of everybody, you know. It was those things, but just being there inspired me to do more with the Latino Medical Student Association because I had heard about it. I think I heard about it during my interview cycle, just like some schools had it and I thought I A&M had it. It was there, but it was pretty much dead so I had to revive it. Then the year that I became president, which is within my first year because that's how we transition, I guess. It was a year of the National Conference. So, then I got to meet people at National and it literally skyrocketed me and the stuff that I was doing. I was kind of a shock to me because within my third year of med school I was already the national vice-president. So I was like, "wow, this is a lot," but it gave me a lot. It gave me a community to hang out with both within my med school and outside. When I moved to Houston, when I became a regional leader, it helped me create like my best friend who was walking distance from my apartment. He's also a Latino. So, it was kind of like a mix. I enjoyed hanging out with people in my med school. A lot of them were supportive of things, but it definitely- I guess it was a growth for my school as well, because my school had to go through the re-accreditation process because we were on probation last year. One of the things was diversity and inclusion. I still feel bad about, I guess, Black History Month, in a sense. My second year of med school I was like, "I don't know why nobody celebrates Hispanic Heritage Month." So I did a lot of different events. I set it up. I made sure that it cost nothing because I'm not going to spend money if the schools not going to give me money. And literally I had one of my friends now, Megan, she went up to the Diversity and Inclusion Office like, "what are y'all doing for black history month?" And they were like, "I don't know what you're talking about." And she was like, "y'all did this big whole thing for Hispanic Heritage Month, why are we not celebrating black lives?" I was like, "oh my God, that was my fault." Because I was the one that did that, you know. The school didn't do any of it. So, they were honest with her, like, "yeah, there was no funding for that, it was student-led." Then it kind of motivated us afterwards because they ended up hiring somebody else for Diversity and Inclusion and he said that, "oh, yeah, that's a student driven processing." I was like, "whoa, wait. No. Our job is to learn." You're literally getting paid for this and you're getting paid big bucks as a director, this should be your job, not mine. So, that's when we kind of changed the flow of things. Then that's why I say I feel bad because my self-motivation inspired people but then they were like there's actually no funding for this. I was like, "I know, I just find ways to make things free." But yeah, so that was kind of my experience in med school. I don't think I've really- Oh, okay, I guess two other things that I guess also speak a lot about maybe experiences you can have in med school. One, it was a surgeon who was attacking me. In quotations. They were not actually physically attacking me. They judged me on music taste. In the OR obviously you have music playing, and somebody had the audacity to tell me like, "how do you not know this? Are you not cultured?" They went on a rant and I was like, hold on. Hold on. Why would you expect me to know this? They were like, "well obviously it's a classic" and I was like, "it's a classic to you." You have to understand that all of my growth, all my childhood was in Spanish. So, if you ask me about Rancheras or something before the 90s that were classics in Mexico, I can name those for you. American classics, I do not have that history because I didn't grow up with that culture. That's not- my parents didn't grow up with that music. But if you want to quiz me on Mexican heritage stuff, sure, go for it and then they like, we're quiet. I think that's one of the only kind of racist moments I've had where I kind of had to speak up to a surgeon. Which is kind of scary, But I know they kind of got the hint. The other is more on education. I feel like depending on where you train, it really gives you a different perspective on how you're going to work. So, when you already have a mindset- Kind of like me doing my public health work down in the board, I already knew what can my community afford and what can my community not afford? Houston Methodist is a private hospital and usually only accepts patients with insurance. So, when we were going through medical school, I had a lot of my classmates that in their plan and diagnosis and all that stuff would want to order all these things. And I'm like, yes, but how much is that diagnosis going to change? Or how much is that one test going to change your diagnosis? Is it going to move the needle a little bit or a lot? Because if it's a little bit that's an extra cost to the patient and an extra cost of the Healthcare System. There is no need. When I did my acting internship I got to do it back in College Station with the family program and I really enjoy their concept of rural health because I also had a doctor that was really great. He was like, "why are we going to start this patient on this one medicine that the hospital can pay for but this patient cannot afford it outside of the hospital, right?" Why are we going to start them and shift them on to something else? Start him on something that's going to help them and they're gonna be able to use afterward. Then something that you know is not going to happen. It also kind of gave me the perspective of how I usually treat patients with diabetes. Its like you can only do so much as your patient can, both economically and what they're willing to do. So like for diabetes, I'm going to try to give you all the options that there are. I may think that insulin is your best shot, but if you can't afford it or you don't like needles there's oral medications. Probably not going to work as well, but at least it's something, you know, at least it's something. I can push more like diet and exercise to hopefully get you the other way, but you know it all depends on how much your patients willing to work on it. But yeah, so it's like those things here it's your perspective that you come in with definitely create conversations. Other funny things is like when my classmates would bring up like, "oh my God, I didn't know this about X, Y, and Z" and I'm over here like, wow, that's already my experience. This is what it is being poor, you know. So it's those things that some classmates are like, "oh my God, like this is a thing" and I'm like, "yes, it's a thing." To you, you're not astound but they're like, wow! Oh, this is where it came from! So, when I was working in admissions, I had a classmate, he was actually a non-traditional, he was older. He was an older white dude, and he was like, "yeah, I was very impressed by this one applicant because he was saying that his grandpa was like suffering with this back pain and they couldn't afford the doctor so they went to a curandero."A curandero is a healer, like a shaman, and he was talking about all these crazy things that they did before they even went to the doctor. He's like, "I just thought his story was so interesting" and I'm like yeah, that's what most people do because going to the doctor's is a lot more expensive than going to a shaman that's going to charge you like five, ten bucks for some herbal remedy, you know? Yeah, it's just sometimes the perspective that you bring to the to medical school is is very helpful. It's very useful. But to me, again pushes the idea of we need to re-evaluate the kind of people and diversity that we bring to medicine. It's not necessarily color, but it's just like age, experience, disability, you know, veteran status. Everybody has a different perspective and if we're all able to learn from it, then you get a better idea of what your actual community is. That's all diversity, equity, and inclusion is like, does your population match your workforce? Because if it does then you at least have some perspective of how you can help that local community.

No, absolutely. And man, I can just say you're doing a great job of jumping ahead of all of my questions because when my next question was about the equity and diversity curriculum at your medical school. So, that thank you for that awesome answer. One thing that you just brought up actually kind of ties into my next point. You brought up the fact that how other people that you were around or other medical students were so shocked about different experiences that you just kind of knew. For example that individual seeking out a shaman or an herbal remedy because like couldn't you afford to pursue a doctor. So, kind of on that note, what was I guess your medical school's stance on talking about disparities within the medical field and medical practice, particularly the health disparities experienced by different minority communities?

This is something that I brought up to our curriculum faculty was that we talked about it, but we don't experience it. So, we do have a lot of humanities in medicine lectures, which are great and I enjoy them. I will legit read through the articles, but I have a lot of classmates that- I don't know if it's because they don't have the experience behind it or they're too busy. Our medical education is literally like yes, we have to learn a lot, but we focus on a number. Like, oh, I need to do so well on stuff to get into the best residency ever. To me, those things don't mean anything because it's like to me, it's the type of doctor, the type of leader that you're going to be that speaks more for you. I think helped me out when I was applying to residency because actually I thought I was a very bad applicant. I was in the fourth quartile, my STEP 2 was very low that even my faculty was like, "you have a major red flag, I don't even think you're going to get interviews." He was kind of talking me down. He was like, "we'll see." What I mean by that is that we had all these courses and I really enjoy talking about my experiences in working with these like health disparities, but when you actually went to work as a med student and in your actual clinical curriculum, at least in the Houston campus, I told them there is no practice to this, you know. Unless you're in College Station doing that family rotation where you have doctors that actually discuss thinking about their patients. It's great, but if you don't practice it then it's not going to be helpful. I specifically asked for my family rotation to be in this one FQHC, which is a Federally Qualified Health Center. Those are the government-owned healthcare facilities that make things a lot cheaper for patients and kind of the work setting I want to do in the future. I told them like that's where I want to work in the future, can I have that experience? That was a literally the only experience I had and it was four weeks on working with underserved communities. All the other rotation that I had were people with insurance. It's like every so often, yes, you would have somebody that would struggle but for the most part you don't get that. So, to me, it's like I feel whatever you speak or whatever you're trying to teach needs to match your curriculum and what you see. I told them it's like you need to find ways to get those experiences out there for the students because otherwise they're going to go back to old habits. One of the- I don't know who else- so they started a new engineering and medicine program and actually the faculty that leads it is a Black mail and he told me that, "wow, when I trained we trained at a County Hospital." Which is where you see a lot of that. That's your safety net hospital. He was like, "wow, y'all don't get that kind of experience" and I was like, "no, no, we don't." So he was kind of inspired- he was like, "well we'll try to see if we can do something about it." The thing is Ben Taub [Hospital] is already taken by I think Baylor or the other medical school in Houston. Houston has a lot of medical schools. So now he's like trying to think about how can we create these experiences for med students because that is kind of unacceptable for us to be talking about these things, but not actually getting experience it. And I feel like I had another tangent on this, but I forgot.

Awesome. No, thank you. That was really cool to hear about. That was an awesome answer. Again, it's been really cool to get to hear your perspective on this. So, we're about to transition into talking about Covid. We will probably come back and talk a little bit more about some of the things that you've brought up here. But I guess before that transition, you mentioned how doing like your Master's in public health down on the border shifted your perspective about medicine a lot. Thinking in context of your experience in medical school, did your perspective on medicine and more specifically on the intersection between medicine and minority communities change?

I think if I didn't have my personal life experience slash going to the Border, yes, it would have changed mostly because I would have missed out on it. Right? When I was going through my medicine rotations- like as a med student you're experiencing everything, you're trying to pick a field, or whatever, and going back to my roots it really solidified why I'm in the specialty I'm in. So initially, I started off Family Medicine because I was like, I'm a primary care doctor. I want to help my community. If I can prevent things from happening, it'll be cost effective to them. In the end, I did my surgery rotation and I loved it. So then I was like, nah, I'm going to be a surgeon. Then I went into ENT and I really enjoyed it because I was like a mix of clinic with surgery. So for the longest time, for two years I was like, no, I'm going to be an ENT. Then, on the year when it came close to application, I was kind of shocked by a an ENT. Not in a- it was both good and bad. He helped me get a research project going, but I had no idea how to get it started. He literally connected me with a resident that was at another institution. He was in Galveston and I was in Houston. I was like, "I don't- you guys worked with this patient and I have no clue of anything about this patient. I know nothing. I don't know who to talk to in person cause I need somebody in person to like kind of get this thing going." Two months went by and he was like, "so have you written anything?" And I was like, "I wrote an introduction and all this stuff but I haven't really heard back from the resident." He told me, "if you were really interested in this, you'd have this done by now. This is unacceptable." I was like "wow, excuse me." So it was a shaking moment, because I did enjoy ENT. A lot of the stuff that I enjoyed was actually Surgical Oncology, but it really did tell me a lot because I was like, "why do I want to do Surgical Oncology when some of these cancers are things that I can prevent early on?" It got me back thinking about what was my original purpose was: working in primary care making sure that my patients prevented disease. In ENT there's a lot of like cases of what's called papilloma in the throat, from now we know oral sex. HPV in the throat and there's a vaccine for that, right? I can advocate for my patients to get the vaccine. Colon cancer, you know, did you get screened early enough? There's some cancers that are legit did you screen early enough? I can prevent this is. So my third year- or sorry at the end of my third year, beginning my fourth I was literally sitting there and I was like, what is it that I want to do with my life? So I went back on family medicine and I ended up finding Family Psychiatry. It's a combined training: Family and Psychiatry that. I was like, I think I might end up doing this. I had a lot of faculty members say like, "that's a waste, that you're going to practice one or the other" and I'm like, "why can't you do both?" Especially in a minority community where Psychiatry and mental health is prevalent but not talked about, I can easily like tell them I'm your family doctor and work on these issues without you really having to rethink that I'm a psychiatrist. I ended up in Med Psych only because there's very few Family Psych programs and I didn't like how some of the Family Psych programs were very dichotomous. You're either practicing Family Medicine or Psychiatry. Tulane, what I really liked is that we have a Med Psych unit and Med Psych clinic so you get to practice both. So it definitely helps you develop a little bit better, in my opinion. But yeah, that's kind of my deal in going back to Primary Care is that I get to work with my community. Prevent diseases in the medicine side, but also mental health which is highly prevalent in the minority community and not talked about without them really like thinking about like, oh, I'm seeing a psychiatrist. I'm seeing my primary care doctor, you know. So, that's what kind of brought me back into my field. My specialty and tying it back to my personal experiences of working with underserved communities and wanting to make sure I give back to my community. Since I grew up in that community, how can I do my best to best serve them?

Absolutely. I know I keep saying it, but thank you so much for sharing that with me. That's a really interesting experience and a really interesting perspective on everything. And thank you for walking me through all of your transitions of specialty because I know that that's a big thing in medical school, so that was really interesting to hear about. So transitioning to our next big topic, which is Covid. Can you think back to March of 2020 and tell me a bit of what those first few weeks of the pandemic were like for you and what you were feeling during that time?

It was- so it actually kind of started in January. That's when I was doing my ENT rotation. So, I had a doctor and she was like, "wow, did you hear about these new cases in China? They're going up and blah, blah, blah." And at the time I was like, is it going to get here? She was more worried about it than I was but mostly because I didn't really understand what was going on. Then when it started like popping up in the United States I was like, oh my God, shit is getting real to me. I kind of got excited because I was like, wow the AIDS epidemic was a thing, like a big thing and a lot of doctors were comparing their experiences from then about when they were in med school and how it was a new thing and you're freaking out. Because people would literally go in hazmat suits because they didn't know like, how do I get this disease? Versus now, we know that HIV is transmitted through like blood or bodily fluids that you use less protection when you see your patient and we know how to treat it a little bit better. With Covid, it was kind of the same thing. You're like, wow what am I getting into? How do I do this? My family doctor was a little afraid as well. So, I ended up doing an elective in Family Medicine with a doctor that I used to work with when I was a medical assistant, and so she was kind enough to take me in. That's when I was going back into Primary Care. In March, when I made that decision was like, no, I need to go to Primary Care. So, I literally worked for three days and then we were kicked out because all medical institutions told their medical student don't work anymore. We don't need to expose people. We need to need to limit our PPE use. So, it's kind of scary because I was like, damn this is going to affect how I learn. I need to be in the trenches, kind of- or at least that's how I felt. I'm gonna have to deal with this next year, I need to be in the trenches. So, it was kind of hard. It was helpful in that I got to... study a little bit better because I didn't have the clinic time to kind of distract me. Plus, I got a little bit more vacation time. But to me it like I feel like it helped me develop as a leader and kind of speak out as applicants, right? So one of our biggest worries as LMSa was how is this going to affect all applications? And so our region we ended up doing- because I worked in admissions I asked my admissions director, "hey, can you connect me with all the other admission directors in Texas?" I want to have a zoom meeting live with us, the LMSA group and other pre meds that are out there and kind of get your perspective. We already struggle as minorities to get opportunities as shadowing, how are we going to help these students that are applying to get into medical school when you've already cut off a major source to even get that interaction? So we had a really cool live session that we published to kind of give people ideas on like how this application cycle was going to work. That kind of inspired us to do the same thing for residency because this is also going to affect our residency applications. Like how do we meet residency programs? How are you going to look at interviewers? How are we going to look at applicants? Especially when you are a low performing student, right? You don't hop the numbers to apply to specific residencies that you do to audition. They're called sub-I's, where you literally go to an away rotation at their institution so you can show them like, hey, I'm a great candidate. Here's me working. We don't have that. So, how is this going to affect us applying this year? So we did the same thing for- we did a primary care and aa surgery, like surgery and surgery sub-specialty. So, for us it was here is us trying to be leaders and trying to make sure that our diversity and inclusion is not affected. We're trying to be proactive about it before the application cycle starts. So, for me it was during the time that I was studying for STEP , and this is where he kind of like threw me off in that my faculty member was like you're a great candidate but this is your big red flag. You know I was fourth quarter of my class and now you have like this one test that dropped significantly, you're going to have to apply to so many programs because you're not a good candidate anymore. I was like, really, you're discouraging me. He told me to apply to no more than 40 programs. No sorry, do I have it backwards? No less than 40 programs. I had to apply to more than 40 programs to be considered. Yeah, and it's already expensive to apply. It's so expensive to apply. I personally applied to 32 or 34 programs because I was like, I'm confident in my application. Then my family doctor, the one that I worked with, she actually offered to write a letter of recommendation. She was like, "I know you're a stellar applicant. Anybody would be happy to have you on the program." She was also at the time in the board of the Academy of Family Physicians. So I felt like her voice itself, just hyping me up, was good enough. That's why I also learned a lot about networking because I feel like it helped me a lot out. That's what I tell a lot of my leaders it's networking, making sure that you talk to these people because if you don't then you're not going to get seen. So when I was interviewing, that was my biggest question to them. You know, Covid happened and are you looking for a number or are you looking for a leader? Because to me that's going to tell me a lot about your program. I wasn't afraid to tell them. At that point I think I was kind of like, I made it this far. You're actually interviewing me that I have the- you know- to me it's important to know are you going to support me on my leadership endeavors or are you just looking for somebody that like is going to fulfill your number? I think a lot of people actually like that, that that was kind of ballsy. But to me it like told me a lot about their program, right? If you're willing to rank me because I have a lower number but because I do a lot, I'm more than happy to be that leader at your institution. And so far Tulane hasn't disappointed me at least within the Med Psych program because anything that I ask for or questions that I have, they're all supportive. Then during my fourth year, the thing that Covid impacted was once we started going back into the hospital. I know during emergency rotation, we didn't have the vaccine yet. Did I? Crap when was the vaccine? The vaccine was in December. No, we didn't have the vaccine yet. So, we weren't allowed to technically see- it was November, yeah- we weren't allowed to see Covid patients. But I told my my attendings, "you know, I'm gonna have to do this at next year. I have to practice using this PPE." Well, luckily I never got the virus while in med school, but I was like, "I need a practice how to put- how to gown up properly because I'm going to have to see these patients in less than six months. Right now you're telling med students that they can't see them but I'm literally going to have to do this and if I don't practice right now, how am I going to like be successful in the future?" So he was like, "well, I didn't see anything. I didn't say anything. So go do you" and I was like, "okay cool." He was cool, but I feel that's how a lot of attendings where. It's like, I'm not gonna stop you. You shouldn't, but I'm not going to stop you. I think that was the only thing and it's kind of the same thing that I tell my students now. I can't let you see covid patients even though now you have the vaccine, but I'm not going to say anything. It's your learning experience and that to me tells me a lot about you. Like are you are you curious enough to learn? Are you curious enough to explore?

Yeah. Wow. Okay. Well, one of my questions was going to be how did Covid affect you applying to residency, so thank you for talking about that. So, I do want to kind of circle back a little bit. So, I mean you were in your third year kind of right around when Covid started and all clinicals had to stop. When you did eventually get to go back and start up your clinical rotations again, can you talk a little bit more about like how those were forced to change because of the pandemic and the impact you feel like those changes have had on you?

Yeah, if I'm understanding correctly- so our curriculum is actually a head in that we do a lot of our clerkships- So most most schools are two years of school work, two years of medical and ours is one and a half and two point five. So I was pretty much done with all my clerkship rotations. Everything was elective. I only had one more left by the time we went back. So, what they really did was they shifted our clinical course work to half and half. So half of it was going to be virtual and half of it was going to be in person. To me it actually was a little bit beneficial because when I started medicine rotation, I felt a lot more comfortable because sometimes you're literally learning as you go into the rotation and so you're like, "I don't know- your asking me these questions, but I don't know." I go home and sometimes I'm so tired I can't study. This time, I got to study ahead and then got to practice. To me that was a better learning style because we got to take our Shelf exam twice because they understand that sometimes you need to learn through experience. So when I took myself to first time, I literally just barely passed it just by studying and then you got to take it again at the end of it once you added the clinical experience. I really didn't study during that time when I was doing clinicals. It's like, "you know what already passed it. That's really what I need. I need my passing grade." So, when I took my shelf again, I didn't study. I think I looked at some stuff before I took the test and actually did a lot better. So to me, it was one of those things where it's like, I have a base, now I'm practicing it and that's solidifies what I just did? And so to me, that's like a Better Learning side, which is I guess, what medical school is in all reality is like you're learning the bass and then you practice it. But when you're in your clerkships, you have to have the base of that one specialty. So it's a little bit more focus and to me it allowed me to focus on what do I need to know for the specialty before I go in, let me practice it, and I'll let me show you what I know.

Okay. Okay. No, that's cool. I guess another kind of question bumping off of that, I know you said that you did like a large portion of your clinicals before the pandemic started, but that you did have that one kind of rotation afterwards. How did covid effect- because I mean a big part of- or at least my understanding is that a big part of the clinical experiences getting to interact with patients. How did covid-19 kind of affect your interactions with patients during that like last clinical experience?

The only way it effected it is that I couldn't see Covid patients. So, I know a lot of people would ask me, "you know, what's it like?" But I would just do it from the periphery, right? I couldn't really tell you much about those initial years of dynamic with the patient. Because like you just see it on TV and just your classmates- or not your classmates, I guess the residents that were above you they would tell you how hard it was to see patients literally not being able to breathe and saying their last words to their family over the phone because their families are not allowed in the hospital. Like for me, I'm an emotional person. I'm in Psychiatry. I want that experience sadly, because, you know, it's a human interaction that you I missed out on that I kind of wish I had because it gives you a better perspective of the humanity of medicine, right? Yes I'm treating you, but you're also a person and you're going to- Death and dying is like a very hard topic in medicine and palliative care. To me it's like very important because even though the person may be gone, there reminisces are still here with the family and grieving is also like a big thing that I would have to deal with as a psychiatrist. It's like that's a lot of the stuff that I got to miss out on. So all that learning was peripheral about covid-19. Now I do get to see it as a resident, but it is a different different perspective. I feel like I'm jaded now a little bit in that because we do have the vaccine and there's people that don't want the vaccine. You know, the people that come through that are literally going through it, like yes there it still that. I had one actually that it wasn't that they didn't want the vaccine, it's they were confused about the vaccine and there are immigrant community. The hardest thing was the person was young and their significant other was also young. I guess nobody else got infected, but they were the one in the hospital and having to translate for this patient dying and then- On their last day, literally the last day that this person lived, their significant other came to the hospital because that was the only hospital we were allowed to give, to at least say goodbye. Then they started showing me pictures of their kids and stuff like that. So, that hurt a lot. But a lot of my other Covid patients is kind of hard, because I have to balance like, you kind of made this decision now. I feel like I missed out a lot on- At least I got to have one experience with a patient that was like that, but I feel like the other ones are a little bit jaded because I'm like, "you had the chance. We've told you and now you are here." I'm going to try my best. but also you're in a very bad spot, kind of thing Right? So, it's like a weird mix right now with those patients.

Yeah, no, absolutely. Absolutely. So, towards the end of like this covid conversation- I mean you mentioned being Psych, being kind of an emotional person, that's kind of the stuff that you're interested in in like talking about. If you're comfortable talking about it, did the pandemic have any significant effect on your personal life or your mental health and can you tell me a little bit about that? If you are comfortable with it.

I'm trying to think because- so my thing is I'm all about keeping my mental sanity in check. So, I always try to make sure that I work out, I eat, I nap, and I watch TV. So everything- because it was a little bit lonely for a bit because I did come back to Houston. I was with my family for a bit and then I was like, you know what I need to get back because I couldn't focus at home doing all the lectures. So, I went back to Houston and I was literally secluded in my apartment, but all I really did was run around in the afternoon because gyms were closed and I was still doing my workouts. It was a different dynamic. That's when I found my boyfriend. So, I think he kind of kept me company for a bit. But I don't think it- I think I try to find myself in a happy place sometimes that I don't think I was impacted like others if that makes sense. The only thing that like was kind of hard is that I am a very social person, so I do need that interaction with people. But I try to make sure that I zoom call people and then I think it helped that I did meet my boyfriend during quarantine. Or my ex. He's my ex ,but like I met him during that time so I had somebody to share time with and it wasn't as lonely. Not everybody was that lucky, I don't know.

No. No, I mean that makes absolute sense. I mean that is your experience, so thank you for talking about that. So, this kind of bounces off of a point you brought up earlier talking that one experience you had with the immigrant family who hadn't had the vaccine. What is I guess your perspective of the effect that Covid has had on the wider like Latin and Hispanic community in the US?

Can I take a restroom break? Because it's like the water from the gym. I'll be back. All right, so during the pandemic I feel like that was like another thing that we did as an organization was create health literacy, or at least that's what I did. Personally on social media I was trying to post a lot of the new articles that came out. There is a doctor that I started following and became friends with online. She would post a lot. She's a pediatrician. I would post a lot about the vaccine. I would just translated in Spanish mostly because everything that comes out was in English. If you're working with a- like for me it's like my personal go to work it with Spanish-speaking community that I was like there's a lack of resources. All this new stuff that comes out is kind of hard for people to understand. So I have to not only translate the science, but also kind of word it in the way that makes sense. Also, the wave of misinformation kind of like affected a lot of the stuff because- I don't know if you know what WhatsApp is but like a lot of people outside of the the United States use WhatsApp. People start sharing a lot of different stuff you through there, through Facebook. My mom would always send them to me and she's like, "what do you think about this?" And I was like, well, they have a like little false like fallacy kind of going on there. To me it was a great time just kind of finding ways to educate the community, but also kind of not dismissing their own beliefs. Because that's a balance you have to find as a doctor, right? Because once you start dismissing somebody's beliefs, you just have a harder time with that relationship and you can really help a person. I was kind of lucky that my mom believes a lot of the stuff that I say because my brother is autistic and I know the whole vaccine and autism wave kind of like kicked in again. So she was- she doesn't believe that vaccines cause autism but it was one of those things where that kind of created the anti-vaccine movement to come back and I was like, god just makes it hard. But then I think what didn't help was the political atmosphere at the time, because then the vaccine and the science behind it just became so political. You know having people understand that science isn't perfect. It's an evolution. That's how we learn. we're not going to have an answer one hundred percent of the time. It's something that I through trial and error you learn. Not a lot of people understand that and that's what gets frustrating. They're like, "how do you- how do you not know?" Everybody thought this coronavirus was something new, like we didn't know about coronavirus has and I was like, we study it in medical school but because it was just like a common cold that didn't do anything we didn't study it as much, right. It's not a thing. But because this one variant, this one genetic mutation, created this whole pandemic obviously now we have to research this one specific disease. So I don't know. It's just like those things that are frustrating as a physician now where you're like we did learn about it and we're seeing the evolutionary processes. To me it's intriguing, right? It's how science happens, but not everybody understands that that's how science happens. It's just kind of fighting that miss information with people and I just try my best by providing that in either English or Spanish resources. That's what I use social media for, just bringing out information whenever I can. But that's been my experience just working with minority communities. Even now like offering the vaccine to some of my patients, I have some that are like, "yeah let's do it." Some of them are already in the emergency room with covid and I'm like, "well, it's kind of late. Now we have to wait for a bit until you get a little better." But you know the ones that are hesitant, I'm like, "what questions do you have? What can I try to make sure?" It's not always that they're anti-vax, it's just they're hesitant because it's new. They don't know how- I guess people are so afraid that it was developed to quickly and stuff like that. I was like, well, this vaccine literally the information for this was years before because somebody was working on it it is just because they didn't have funding for it. Nothing got moved fast enough, but now because it's effected the whole world everybody put money into it and that's how we have information on it. Now, this is the kind of things like people don't understand how the science behind it works. Because we can literally know about everything if we just had money to fund everything to know everything. It would suck as a the doctor because we do have to know to learn it in the end, but like a lot of the diseases out there we don't know about because there's no funding into the research that goes behind it.

Yeah, no, absolutely. Absolutely. I think that's a really interesting perspective and that's a great transition into my next point, next discussion. So, I think one thing that has been getting a little bit more attention in national awareness but I'd love to hear your perspective on it is the fact that the pandemic has kind of brought more public awareness to health disparities and the history of adverse relationships between the medical field and different minority communities and communities of color. Do you think that's true? Do you think the pandemic has made us like as a country more aware of this?

It helped to highlight it, for sure. So again, this is one of those things that like I came to Medical School with. I knew about it, but because it doesn't affect you, you don't care about it. Right? So because a lot of my classmates don't have to live through this experience, they don't really know or understand why it's a thing. But once they're impacted by Covid because it affects everybody, then they're like, oh wow, it's a thing. One of the things that was really frustrating to a lot of us- I don't know if it's just like minorities in medicine or something, I know me and my classmate would vent a lot about it- is that especially with the highlight of the Black Lives Matter movement a lot of us were already doing these things, but then people that were never open or loud enough about these discussions all of a sudden were like the spearhead leaders. I was like, where were you? Where were you initially? We were asking for your help and now you're the spearhead of it like, how- to me it highlights like the discrepancy in allyship, right? When you're an ally, you're there to support, you're not there to steal the spotlight. I feel like that's how a lot of Med students are. That's how we- like my personal experience, or how I felt and how some of my classmates felt- is that they only did it to make their application look good. You may have had good intentions, but in our eyes because we've been asking for help, that's how it looks like. It looks disingenuine. That you're doing this now only because it's a thing when we've been talking about it for forever. So, as an application cycle, especially you now going into residency, you're trying to make yourself look like a leader. You know like why now when you have all this time? But yeah,

No, no absolutely. I guess kind of on that note, thinking within the medical profession, what do you think needs to be done within the medical profession to kind of- and I know this is a big question- to adequately and justly raise more awareness and work to combat those miscommunications and disparities in medical treatment that minority communities experience?

So, it's like a system issue so definitely it's a big question. For me, it's like within med school just dismantling how we review applicants. There has to be a way, and I feel like you just have to have like a focus group because I don't have the answers obviously, but a different way of reviewing applicants. We say we do holistic review, but it's still based on numbers. I had an applicant that literally was me with a lot of great leadership experiences. In Texas, we actually look at the SAT. When you apply to the Texas thing, you have to put in your SAT score. I had a faculty member, he was a doctor, he was like, "I don't think we can accept this student, because if you look at their MCAT, their verbal reasoning, and their SAT score verbal reasoning were really low." I'm like, sir- That was like the first time I think I found my voice at least within medicine because the admission director that voted me into the being in the admissions committee, he was like, "you have an equal voice, you need to speak up. I can see you angry." I was like, "sir, this applicant is me. You cannot say that this application is not successful or won't be successful because that student is me" and they're like, "what are you talking about?" I was like, "if you look at my record, the reason why I didn't get into med school was because I had a low verbal reasoning score. I had it on the ACT, GRE and the MCAT two times. My third time, I got it better. But I am in your admissions committee. I am a national and regional leadership for the Latino Medical Student Association and I'm in mind the American- what's it called- the American Medical Association National Minorities Issues Committee. You can't say that just because you have a low verbal reasoning score, you're not going to be a great physician, you're not going to be a great leader." That's where I told them "you guys need to decide. Are you guys looking for a number to make your institution look well or are you looking for a leader that is actually going to want to cause change?" So, I think it's working on- creating a- finding a way to make a more conscious admissions committee or something where they don't look at a number, they look at what kind of leadership experiences these people have. Because if we don't have people that are willing to create change, we're going to stay in the same like thing that we're doing right now. You need people that are going to be willing to meet create change, start the dialogue and actually not only talk but do the work. When it comes to the medical education itself, it has to be, again, not only talk about these issues but provide students with the experiences that are going to allow them to see health disparities because otherwise you're going to go back again to blaming the patient for not doing something when you're not thinking about what is your social situation that's going to impact your Health Care outcome. I legit had to talk to- as a resident, once I became a resident I had a patient that literally was this exact picture of why it's so important to have these dialogues and humanities of medicine. They, she was a young black woman and right away I was like, I don't want to be that doctor like that fucks it up. I don't want to be that doctor that makes her hate the system because the first interaction that I had with her she told me, "I don't want to talk to you. I want to talk to your supervisor because you're just an intern." She was already mad at me. And it wasn't that she was mad at me, she was mad at the system as how she was being treated. So I let her kind of like blow up at me, but then we started that dialogue and she got to know me. She was like, "oh, wow, you're like really interested in dismantling a lot of these issues" and I was like, "yeah, that's why I'm here. That's why I want to practice medicine." So there I learned her social circumstances which impacted a lot of what was going on in her life and her medical health. She was labeled as a- like she had a specific label because a lot of people knew her, she would come to the hospital a lot because she had a lot of different diseases but they kind of viewed her as non-compliant. But I was like if you take time to listen to her story, there's reasons why she cannot get some of these things done. Luckily, she was a- I don't know that's probably HIPPA, like she had things that helped her because she, ugh- especially, since this is recorded. I'm gonna stop but yeah,

It's all good. Do what you need to do. We don't want to get you in trouble.

So yeah, exactly. But it is those things that she had her own circumstance, but at least she had things to help her with. But not everybody has that and if you're a doctor that can advocate for your patients when they don't have anything, you know, to me, it's a lot. So that's where we need to change the system of having people that will actually be leaders and want to cause change, but also like not only talk about these things but actually do them in practice. Teach them how to do that in practice. I told myself that I was going to retire my intern year and not do a lot of this stuff because I needed to focus on myself, but here I am still doing some of the same stuff.

That's really cool. I mean, that's awesome. And I guess that kind of leads into kind of my closing question. I promise, I know this has gone way longer than I initially said it would so I appreciate, I really do appreciate you.

As long as I become famous out of this, you know. [Laughing]

Oh yeah, this will be like cited multiple dissertations. [Laughing] So, I guess my last question and It kind of does go off of that last point, is that we've talked a lot about just all of your different personal experiences like how your background and what you have dealt with growing up and then also in college and undergrad and we just like discussed all this and how that like, they've been continuing to impact you. What would you say kind of going forward in your medical career is I guess like your mission statement?

So, it's an evolutionary process and I feel that's how my life is generally. I don't know if it's a random ADHD thing, where it's like, oh new interesting topic, I'm going to go this route. I think it'll still be the same way because obviously I end up gravitating towards similar things. I like to learn. I'm going to continue being in a place where I learn.I guess that's a psychiatrist in me to, it's like listening. The more you listen, the more you learn and the more you get to know people. What I was hoping to do with my career was at some point I wanted to work in Washington D.C. Do some stuff out there, you know, be a national leader. A little bit of me right now is tired where I'm like, why do I have to do this work? Can't somebody else do it for me. So we'll see what ends up happening. That's I think the real burnout that happens within physicians, right? I've been doing a lot of this already and it gets frustrating when things don't happen. So, we'll see if I still have the energy to do so, but I did want to work in the FQHC setting back with the people that need me. So, it's like that, the split of me where I was like I want to be on ground helping people and it might be like a Leslie Knope thing to where- I don't know if you saw Parks and Rec- where she was having a hard time going to D.C. because she's like, this is where I belong. I need to help the people here. I need to do this, this and that. But then you have to remember, if you are able to go up there you're overseeing a lot more people that can actually continue doing that work for you, you know. So, it's that balance where I'm at life right now. I did want to do that because I did do a summer internship in Diversity and Inclusion in Washington D.C. right after my Master's. Yeah, I've done so many things. I also taught High School as a permanent sub, so that also gave me a different perspective. But it's these things that my life takes me everywhere and I just kind of go with it and, you know, learn from that. So, what I want to do after I finish, I either want to be a faculty member, but then I'm also like dang I'm too tired. I do want to work in an FQHC setting where I do get to practice both work in a Latino Community or LGBTQ Community or something with both. Because mental health is hard in minority communities, but I can be your primary care doctor that bridges that mental health aspect. Then within the LGBTQ community, you need a primary care doctor, especially when it comes to like HIV/AIDS. Like kind of picture just having HIV as a diagnosis is so- it can be stigmatizing, traumatic, and so much trauma related to it that you need a psychiatrist or somebody involved in mental health to help with it. But also the medicines that are used to treat the patient are so complex, sometimes can interact with other things that you're taking, that I want to make sure that I am- I want to be the full package to my patient. I want to make sure that I am able to help you to the best of my abilities. That's why I went into career that I went into. But again, it's I want to continue inspiring the next generation. That's why I wanted to be a faculty member, but I'm like do have the energy for this now? Even though I do, but I don't. And same thing, do I want to do something in D.C. later on in my life and work in the Health... whats called HERSA. I don't know. One of the branches of Health up there or the HSS, you know, do something on a larger scale to make sure that we continue on making changes for people because it's needed and if somebody doesn't do it, it's not going to happen. I don't know. I mean, like I said I'm in a very- probably I'm tired from intern year where I'm like no I don't want to do this anymore and this residency is five years. But you know, I'll find my light again. I mean it's still there. It's probably dimmed, but I'm still doing it. I'm still doing it. Like with LMSA we, because of things that are going on in Tulane with diversity and inclusion, I told my new leaders like, "hey, can you help the conference here this year?" And that's what we're doing. I already called out all the residency programs. I was like you guys are having diversity and inclusion issues, here's your chance, bring your residency programs here. So, I'm still doing things and I do it on periphery, but it's like can I just be me sometimes? That's the life of medical students. [Laughing] Or at least me.

No. Yeah, absolutely. But I mean, all of that sounds incredible and to get to hear about all of these different perspectives and things that you see for yourself, that like as someone who is also close to a medical student that's just that so fascinating and that's so cool. So, before we stopped the interview I want to make sure that you have gotten to talk about everything that you would like to. So is there anything else that you would like to talk about? Or is there something that you think that I should have asked you?

I feel like I just ramble on so I don't even know. I don't know. This was fun because- so this is what I enjoy, that's why I enjoyed writing my story and I can provide it to you, like a link to it. Because I wrote about it, but it's like the more you talk about it the more you're able to. When it becomes like a written history, one it helps an individual really conceptualize what is going on in your life and why you do the things you do. But it also provide- provides perspective to somebody on your lived experience and how you see the world, but also e somebody might have that shared experience that feels lost. So, at least, you know, you provide that kind of, not guidance, but at least like, oh, I see myself in that. So, I enjoy doing this for that kind of reason. And obviously, like how long is this interview that I just babbled on. [Laughing]

No, I mean it's been absolutely great. So again, thank you so much. I'm about to stop the recording. We will still like be able to see each other, just the recording is going to be stopped. So, thank you so much. This has been really informative.

Yay.