Tim Davis Interview, November 18, 2020

SEGMENT SYNOPSIS: The following transcript is automated and may not provide an accurate transcription of the interview. There may be typos or inconsistent line breaks. Please refer to the attached document for a more accurate transcript. SUBJECTS: DC Black Lives Matter Artist; (Virtual Interview);

Hello, my name is Joy Pierce. Today is November 18

2020. I am calling from my house and Stephens City and it is 1:03

in the afternoon. Could you please introduce yourself, Tim,

and spell your name?

My name is Tim Davis T-I-M D-A-V-I-S.

And can you tell me where you're calling from?

I'm calling from Falls Church, Virginia now.

Okay. And do I have your permission to record this

interview?

Yes.

Wonderful. All right, so can you tell me where

you were born and when?

I was born in Chicago heights, Illinois, in 1955, and

lived there most of my life.

Okay. Can you tell me your parents names and their

occupations?

James and Mary Davis. My dad was a--he worked in the

steel industry, a steel laborer. And my mom was mostly a

housewife, but she also had different positions in, it was

basically a woodworking shop, but mostly a housewife.

Okay, can you tell me a little bit about your

childhood and growing up in Illinois?

Growing up in Illinois was where I, of course,

went to school and you know, basically was the emphasis of my

life, really. It was very different, in terms of--I

shouldn't say different, but basically, it was growing up in

a all black community, where we had of course black churches and

black schools and black community that basically kind of

took care of themself. We worked--we were all basically

working to survive and working to create and working to, you

know, live. It was at that time, you know, in the early 50s

60s--not early 50s. I'm sorry they were the 60s. (chuckles)

And basically it was all about, like, you know, we had fun, I

guess you could say. I mean, we would stay up, you know, early

in the morning and get up early in the morning, didn't have

school and all day we would just be playing: ball, basketball,

football, basketball, baseball, all those things that, you know,

we did when there was no internet, and there were no

things to do in terms of nothing but sports and activities

outdoors. So, normal childhood.

In terms of like, overall, black communities are very different

from many other communities because it's basically in the

Chicagoland area. So we did things, I will say rather

quickly, you know, learning how to do things like catch the bus

and catch the train and get around at a very young age, that

was also part of growing up, you know, being able to survive in a

city context or outside the city contacts that we were moving

around a little bit. But it never kind of hesitated for us

to stifle us in one place. We kind of kept moving, and it was

kind of a normal thing to actually grow up where you learn

how to do these things in the city where folks are--like in a

suburb or in a rural area.

Okay, can you tell me a little bit about school if

you had any favorite teachers or subjects or anything like that

growing up?

Yeah. From first to eighth grade, we basically it

was in one area so everybody knew each other. It was a small

school, and, you know, normal classes and everything and so

forth and had a wonderful teacher. He was a science

teacher that I'm still in touch with Reg Weaver, who basically

kinda took us, especially the boys, in his hands and kind of

molded us in a lot of ways. All the teachers were like parents.

As I mentioned, at that time, everybody kind of knew each

other. People were taking seriously, the fact that

everybody was kind of like a community and a family. And so

there was no hesitation for teachers to call home or even

come over your house and say that you were doing wrong, or

you need to do this better or things along those lines, so it

was a family atmosphere in our educational system, and at the

same time it was also disciplinary, in terms of like,

"Okay, you did wrong you know. Your parents are going to hear

about it," just to kind of keep us moving forward. And so it

was, it was great. And even to the point where we were, you

know, playing basketball, and football and all those other

sports as a kind of a strong unit.

Reg Weaver had a big influence on me, as well as many other

students, because he continued in education, and became the

director of the National Education Association. So we

always stayed in touch and inspired me actually, as I look

back, to actually go into teaching, because I have 38

years of teaching, as well as being an artist. So he was very

inspirational, as well as a couple other teachers at that

time. And then even moving forward to high school, found

some teachers that were very inspirational and even pushing

me into the art, you know, bridging the talent that I have

and moving forward and saying, "Yeah, you can be an artist, and

you can do this." One artist, one individual named John Cash,

who was an artist in still Chicago and the area and he

taught me how to draw and really, again, kind of took us

under their wing and kind of continued to push while I was in

my high school. So yeah, it was a good, it was good. It was one

of the pluses that high school gave us is those teachers that

cared.

That's amazing. Can you tell me a little bit about

your experience, transitioning from high school into college

and where you went to college, what that was like?

Well, yeah, high school was very interesting,

because I should also say that back in the 60s and early 70s,

when I was in high school, I graduated in '73... Yeah, gotta

get my dates straight. (laughs) I guess it was '73, '74. Where

we were basically products--I shouldn't say products but

basically, we were in transition from segregation to integration.

So the community that I lived in, because we had moved out in

the suburbs of Chicago which are not far, like 20 minutes away.

But we were transferred to a all white school at that particular

time, and it caused a lot of problems within the community a

lot of problems with just the transition of the community of

integration. So the idea of, you know, we were going to one

school, and it was my junior year, and that last year, they

decided that, you know, our class was going to be the first

to go to this school, which was located in South (unclear),

Illinois. And my parents and the community was like, "Why, why do

we have to go, we have to be bused so far away?" We had to

actually go to another location and why can't white kids come to

school that we have, and it was a whole lot of things.

On the other side, the white parents there, didn't really

want us in that community or want us coming to that

community. So it was a real time of difficulty, especially in

regard to integration especially in regard to, you know,

discrimination and things like that. So we were faced with that

going to school, especially at that year. So there was a lot of

fights. There was a lot of problems. There was a lot of

discrimination and racism that we experienced by going over

there. We had to make sure that we caught the bus, honestly,

back to our communities cause walking was not a option,

getting a ride from there. So it was a very difficult situation

for high school. However, on the plus side, they had the best

facilities and the new school and they had all the facilities

especially in like our art department. They had five

teachers and you know, new kiln and jewelry making and painting

lab and drawing lab. And so it also gave us an opportunity to

actually see another phase of, you know, a new school and the

things that were given to us. So we utilized them, at least I

utilized that art department to actually grow and become an

artist.

And at the same time again, there was a teacher there who

cared who--Don Cash was one that I met there who basically pushed

me into moving forward with an art. So it was a plus to that.

It was difficult, but it was a plus to that. And we were kind

of like the trailblazers in that particular time to integrate

that particular school. So that was a time of the Black Power

movement, and also the civil rights movement for equity,

which it still is, so kinda moves forward. But at that

particular time, it was a very difficult time in terms of

segregation and integration, and what community you can live in a

community, you can't live in and what community school you can go

to, and all those other elements that was, you know, causing

problems.

When you lived through that, did you sort of

realize the significance of being one of the first classes

to integrate the school?

Oh, yeah, yeah, we all knew where we were at. We

all knew what the, the situation was. Because prior to that, of

course, you know, in 1968, Martin Luther King died, and

there was, of course, from 1955, to '68, was, you know, really

the civil rights movement. And, of course, growing up in that

time zone, we saw so many things that were unequitable, so many

things that weren't right, or so many things that was against us.

And not only just in the Chicago, Illinois area, but also

everywhere in the United States. So we saw people getting jailed,

getting hit, and riots and all those things. So, yeah, you

know, we didn't want to go over there, we didn't want to go in

that particular environment or the possibility of whatever

environment. But we were ready to go into that environment in

terms of, yes, this should happen and this is kind of the

steps that we need to take, because there were, again,

integration that was happening throughout the land, the nation

in terms of people who were, you know, making the sessions on

individuals who are integrating schools, and not just black

individuals, but also minorities in terms of Asian and Hispanic

and many other cultures and many other ethnicities that were here

in this country.

So yeah, we were definitely aware of where we were going,

what we were faced with, and what we needed to do and work

really hard I guess you could say the challenge. And it taught

us a lot. It taught us a lot about people in life, you know,

the, the differences of opinions and so forth. And then I have to

say that overall, it's been worth the time. Once we got past

a certain point, everybody connected and everybody got

together and everybody worked hard to be one within the

school. And I was wrestling at the time. That was my sport.

And, and it was great to actually meet so many new

wrestlers, people who were not, you know, of the same skin tone,

black, and the same culture. And we learned from each other. So

yeah, it was it was an interesting time. And I'm glad

that I went through it. You know, they were problems. There

was fighting, there was issues, but we got through it and we

kinda set the way for others to follow.

That's amazing. I feel like after, like going

through something like that you have to just, you know, think

that you could do anything, you know, dealing with that in high

school at such a young age. I can't imagine. Can you tell me a

little bit about your decision after graduation and thinking

about what you wanted to do and picking schools and that sort of

thing for college?

Yeah. So, I was the first in my family to go to

school. There was five of us. We really didn't think about school

in that particular way. I mean, school period, because it was

difficult, it was expensive. And, you know, it was not

something that in terms of like, "Okay, prepare yourself for

college. No, prepare yourself for a possible job somewhere,

for possible going into"--many of my friends went into the

service at that time. And for college, so we kind of had those

two choices in terms of what would you do after school. And

so a lot of people did not go to college, because the difficulty

of getting there and the cost factor and quite frankly, for

me, my grades were, you know, my grades weren't good. I took the

SATs and all other things and did very well. But it was also a

thing where you know, as my father worked, he was like, "You

know, I don't know, if I'll be able to afford to actually send

you to the school or this school." So we had to actually

(inaudible) and go from there.

So, I went to a community college, and worked at that

particular time. I didn't have that opportunity to just like,

Okay, I'm going to go to apply to these 12 schools and see what

happens. (chuckles) It was much more difficult for me--and all

of us, it was. So Community College was fine, it was another

growing part. And it was also a way to get serious about

college, and also a little way to get more involved with art

and improve my grades and all those other things. I'd have to

say at that particular time, I also got married young. I had

gotten married and had my first child, back in '73, when I

graduated--'74 and started a family. So that was a perfect

opportunity for me to, you know, when I say "get serious," I mean

this is already happening very quickly. So working and going to

college and working and going to school was my routine, and you

know, doing it the best I can for all those things is where we

were going.

So as far as college, transitioning to community

college, and after that two years preparing myself for

another university, and I went to Eastern Illinois University,

and thank goodness got a scholarship to go there. And

that helped quite a bit. In terms of, you know, I was still

majoring in art so I decided that early on, that senior year

in high school, that I was going to go into art, and I improved

my grades, improved my subject matter and and did get a

scholarship to go down to Eastern Illinois University,

Charleston and finish out my two years there. From that

particular point I got a fellowship to go to the

University of Illinois to also study with Frank Gallo and I was

interested in sculpture at the time and I decided I was going

to go into education. Again, bringing my children from

Chicago area to downstate and having them grew up in a whole

other environment was also a big change. At that time, I had two

children. I have three total. And we made it work. You know,

we work hard and in college and had some very good opportunities

for us at that time as well.

Wow, that's, I can't imagine doing all of that with a

family. That's amazing.

(coughing)

So can you tell me a little bit about transitioning

out of school and starting your career in education and all of

your work with art and sort of what that transition looked

like?

(coughing) Excuse me.

Oh, I'm sorry.

One second. (coughing) Okay we're better.

Um, so yeah, going to school and deciding to go into education

was what I (unclear) to do. And I like that. I mean, I think I

always knew--(coughs) Excuse me.

You're totally fine.

You can hear okay?

Mhm yeah, you're good.

I think I always knew that I wanted to educate because

I think that's an important part of growing and teaching as many

people as possible. So that was also something I wanted to do.

So, in school, I did both, you know, undergraduate and graduate

work, I always had classes, kind of a double major education, as

well as art, which work really well together, because I enjoy

both parts enjoyed the scholarship behind, you know,

what is art, why did you do art, and, you know, the aesthetics

behind it, art history behind it, and then I also love to just

create. And so I started to do more painting and drawing, and

that was kind of the two dimensional aspect that I was

kind of creating.

And so when I got out of college, I did you get a job

right away as a teacher in the area, you know, near where I

lived in Champaign-Urbana. And taught there for five years, you

know, going back and forth and teaching at the middle school,

the junior high school they called it then, They then move

me up to the high school level, which was fine, and I enjoyed

constantly teaching, and I felt fortunate to be able to teach in

my field of art, as well as create art. And so that's kind

of how I worked and at the same time, you know, having a family

and moving forward within the family dynamics was--I always

practiced art. I was never going to not practice it and enjoyed

making it even though I was a teacher. And even though I'd

spend a lot of time in classroom, one thing that was

for sure was that synergy, or both parts of those have always

been kind of a quick connection for me. I do like to, I guess,

give assignments or give students challenges and even

challenge myself to that challenge that I'd already given

them. So that's kind of the fun part as well. So I always kind

of, you know, grew with the students as, you know, we've

moved along in the educational process.

That's really cool. It's kind of kind of like a

practice what you preach kind of thing.

Yes, exactly. Exactly.

That's awesome.

That was a nice. That's always been nice. So

yeah. Education is excellent. And also, again it gave own my

children an opportunity to see and be part of an educational

process, as well.

Mhm, can you tell me a little bit about when you

moved to the east coast. I know you're calling from Falls

Church, and you've done some work in DC and that sort of

thing, but I'm not sure when you made that move?

Okay. Yes, so one thing that I did when I was in

the community of Champaign-Urbana, where I lived,

and also teaching and creating, that is I formed a group called

Symmetry, which was kind of my brainchild in terms of, I wanted

to do more for the community. So I banded together with some

artists, not only visual artists, but musicians and

theater and also poets and writers. And we're all black

educators, as well as artists living in this community that

wanted to actually go out more in the community as well as give

a sense of we are--our voice can be heard, I guess you could

say--and it still is that's when I say Champagne-Urban (unclear)

spent many years there, but there was still not a large

amount of black students that was there. So we were kind of

getting lost within the community, not (unclear) within

the community. But in terms of what artists can do, or what we

can do. So I formed this group, Symmetry. We was a nonprofit, we

basically moved around in different communities, different

locations and showed our art so it was a presenting

organization.

So through that, I wrote a grant to come to the National

Endowment for the Arts here in Washington, DC, where I wanted

to study and wanted to actually, you know, get more involved with

the arts. And so they gave me a fellowship actually to come here

for I guess it was six months to Washington to study with the

National Endowment for the Arts, which was here actually, but

interesting enough, it was located in what they call the

Trump Towers shopping building and hotel right there on

Pennsylvania Avenue. And you may know, is the National Endowment

for the Arts and Humanities. It was there for many, many years,

which was formed, I think that was in 1963 by Lyndon Baines

Johnson, who was the president at that time for artists,

organizational art administration to administer

grants to artists and people in organizations. So I was

thrilled, I was like, "Okay, I gotta go, this is a wonderful

opportunity."

And so that transition, I came here first and got a place here

in Washington and then moved my family out to this direction

here. I want to say that's in '78. No, I'm sorry, that was

'80. Graduated from college in '78 so it must have been early

80s that I moved out here, and, and worked for the endowment,

National Endowment as a fellowship. And they awarded me

another year stay, to work with some presenting organizations

and also do some site visits and be an administrator there in the

expansion arts program, which was run by A.B. Spellman, who is

still living in the Washington community who is a writer, and a

poet. And the idea behind the expansion arts was to expand the

arts to communities that normally don't have the arts.

And that was black communities, Hispanic communities, American

Indian communities, Chinese communities, and give granting

organizations within those communities funding so they can

actually continue to move forward within their

communities, whether it was a museum or gallery or arts

organization, art centers, and they were all over the nation.

So I had an opportunity to work with many organizations, many

artists at that time, and that's when the National Endowment was

thriving especially because there was so many people coming

in and out of Washington you know, they had the humanities

there as well as the arts and they had the music program and

musical theater program and visual arts they had dance

department, and they were all on different floors. So you get a

chance to meet dancers and artists and theatre people so it

was a really wonderful experience that just kind of

working there and the energy that was coming in and out

parts, artists (unclear) everything that was happening in

the arts at that time. So I enjoyed that. And so yeah,

that's what I did for a few years and got me kind of moving

into the direction of working with an art administrator. And

understanding I guess, the importance of art at that time.

That's so amazing. That sounds like so much fun

honestly.

Yeah it was fun.

Where did you go after your work there?

Well, I stayed here. I'm still here in the Washington

area. I've lived here--I mean, when I say I stayed here after

that. I got a position working for it was called DC arts at the

time. I guess, (unclear) it was an organization that was funded

through the DC Commission on the Arts and Humanities, as well as

the DC Unemployment Services. And the goal of that

organization, our administrator was to fund again, organization,

but more or less people within those organizations for jobs and

readiness for the arts. I thoroughly enjoyed that as well.

And it was kind of a good segue, actually, for what I learned

about expansion arts and about the arts to be an organization

within Washington that would help artists. So in that

organization, what we would do was hire artists, you know, the

whole gamut of artists, dancers, theater, and so forth, our

administrators to work in art organizations, for companies,

and they would get from companies that need artists,

whether they're graphic artists, or what have you. And they would

pay half of the salary and the funding source that we were

going through the Department Unemployment Services and the

commission, they would pay the other half.

And so my job was to find a worksite, hire the position,

hire the artists or the person to work at that particular

worksite, monitor the worksite, as well as the artist, kinda

keep things moving for a period of maybe three months, six

months, or it could be a year with the hopes that the artists

will be hired after that. So we're trying to get jobs for

artists. And it worked, it was a great situation, because we were

able to find work sites and position people and in there and

after that the position remained and stayed. And I also ran the

mural program here in Washington for many years. Washington

had--it's kind of the first mural program that was hiring

artists to work with students and youth, you know, to work on

buildings, and, again, find a space, find a building, find a

place, hire the artists, and the artists would actually work with

students and new college students and bring them all

together, and make these wonderful murals.

And again in that position I was getting the space and hiring the

artists and that was also a lot of fun, nice to see those

things, you know, come to life. And so I worked for that

organization for about five or six years before the funding

kind of ran out. They also had a strong summer youth program that

I think is still available where Washingtonians are able to apply

for jobs and work with organizations. Our emphasis was

just the arts and trying to make artists get positions and jobs.

And so that worked very well. And from that particular point

after the funding went out, I decided to go back into

teaching.

But before that--I have always come up with the organization or

something that I wanted to on my own. So from Symmetry, which had

folded after I left Champaign-Urbana, coming here,

looking further down from that particular point, working for an

arts organization, Arts DC, and the commission. I also had a

group that I work with called Metropolitan Art Consultants,

that I formed actually along the way, which was kind of my

organization. Again, it wasn't a nonprofit, but my goal was to

actually try to get artists sales, try to get artists again

working in the public area, especially with large mural

programs and so forth. And it kind of came about because

people would ask me, you know I was still working as an artist,

and they would ask me, "Do you know any artists who do

landscapes? Do you know artists who do this?" "Yeah, I do know

so artists who do that." And so I was kind of like the bridge

between the artists and the buyer. And so I said, "Well, let

me try to make a little bit of an organization out of this."

Because I knew many artists at that time and I knew people were

buying art and I'm like, okay, so let me try to merge these two

together. And so I work with that as well as working with RCC

and Moving forward back to teaching. And then I started

teaching here in Fairfax County part time and then working in my

organization and raising my family full time.

Wow.

So that's kind of how things kind of evolved in that

particular realm.

Now, that is like so much. You're so busy. Wow. Um,

so can you tell me a little bit about your time teaching at FCPS

and what you like about that? I know you said you taught for 38

years so I feel like that's a big chunk of your life.

Yeah. So teaching, of course, was, like I said, it's

something that I felt like I really liked and wanted to do.

So it was you know a big part of my life. So started teaching in

Illinois, of course, and then grew from Illinois here. I don't

know if I said that earlier. But yeah, sorry, I taught five years

in school.

Mhm.

But when I moved here, want to do more education,

more other things then went back into teaching. So I taught in

middle school, and then moved in high school, of the open high

school. For many years, it was interesting, because at that

particular time, things are still unfolding. Art, for

instance, like, the graphics program, or the computer

graphics stereo, which was kind of a new endeavor that hasn't

been around for a long time. But I was very interested in that

aspect of teaching, there's art painting, drawing, you know, all

the disciplines. And then that came about, and I started taking

classes in the graphics field. And at that particular time, you

know, there was no department for graphics, so it was a part

of the art department. So the school I taught at was Oakton

High School, and I kind of institutionalized part of that,

coming into that particular school, not only me, but it was

other teachers that wanted to put it in their schools as well.

So I taught classes and built up the graphics program there and I

really enjoyed kind of the new thing that was kind of happening

at that time, which was Adobe Photoshop and Illustrator was

starting to come around. And things were (unclear), trying to

get computers into the school, the art department, and that was

kind of a new challenge for me. So I enjoyed that aspect.

I became the chairman of department and got involved with

the school settings, with everything that school would

offer from painting murals to you know, everything that was

there so I enjoyed that. However, it was not quite

enough. You know, (chuckles) my children were getting older,

they were in high school they were getting ready to prepare

themselves for college and everything and so I had more

opportunities and more time and so I decided to open up a

gallery and so that was from you know, Metropolitan Art

Consultants, you know, had had its life and I decided that

well, you know, I have some more energy to teach and I open up a

gallery so I connected with a couple of artists and we kinda

got together and said, "Let's do this." And I had the idea of an

international galleries. So I came up with I came up with

International Visions Gallery, and got a couple of other

artists who were interested in the same concept that I was

doing. And we got together and at first got a space and the

same space that I was in for many years which was on

Connecticut Avenue, which was a farrier which was ladies with

the society net, you know, furs were out at the temperature.

And so we took over that building on 2629 Connecticut

Avenue in one of the floors and made the renovations and opened

up the gallery. Didn't know basically what I was doing,

didn't know how I was going to do it, but its connected with me

to say, "Okay, I want to challenge myself to be better

since I had, like I said, a good sense of business at the time

and art. And then of course, education. So how can I connect

all three of those together? And this was the deciding factor. So

I wanted to international word in there, the international art,

international community because because it was in Washington.

Washington was, you know, all the embassies were there, all

the educational sources, Endowments were there, there was

many artists in institutions. So I wanted to have that influence

and have that connection as well as helping black American

artists that were in the community, as well as an

international scope. And I felt that there was a need--I knew it

was a need--we all felt there was a need cause there was

underrepresentational situation that was in Washington. There

was many white galleries, but not galleries showing other

groups of works, black galleries, black art, some black

art--I shouldn't say it was all white galleries. There were

black galleries as well. There were galleries that was

concentrating on just Hispanic art. And there was galleries and

spaces that were doing combination of things. But there

still was not enough and so I wanted to bring artists from

overseas and bring artists from places like Kazakhstan, Tokyo

area, and Australia.

And that kind of excited me actually, "How can I do this

(chuckles) kind of thing?" And so that's what I did, I began to

organize artists, first of all that was in in states who were

not necessarily, I don't want to say underrepresented, basically

wouldn't have an opportunity to show maybe because of the

cultural differences, or if people were interested our

society to start to cultivate that. And black American

artists, of course, who were unrepresented, basically started

to bridge those gaps together. So I might have a artist from

Australia and an artist from, you know, a black American

artists from Washington or New York, and put those two artists

together and see what the similarities are like. I was

always looking for those kind of things. And surprisingly so,

there were definitely a lot of a lot of influences and a lot of

similarities and a lot of stories, they were very

connected in many ways, from different artists. And at the

same time, there was an artist from Bulgaria that might be an

artist from from, say, American Indian, or white American or

Spanish American, or what have you. So that was that was a that

was my goal is to bridge the gap between the different cultural

aspects. And also that just kept going forward. So doing two

things, I was teaching full time and working with a gallery full

time with some help, of course, with other people that was

involved. That was kind of my, my start and my baby, so to

speak, that kept going for the last, which is still going on

right now. But the brick and mortar lasted for the last

(unclear). I closed it in 2016. So we're still going as a

consulting firm as well.

Wow. It seems like a lot of your work and these

organizations that you're involved with, and the ones that

you start, particularly your gallery? And was it Symmetry?

The group that you started?

Yes.

Um, it seems like a lot of your work is focused on

sort of bridging these gaps and you know, starting these

dialogues between, you know, different communities, different

individuals, and that sort of thing. Do you ever think about

your work, particularly in those sorts of organizations as sort

of your own kind of activism?

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, my work, you know, if you

look at my work, particularly, and often, you know, from years

and years ago, I always have been, I feel, an activists or

saying something or creating something that's going to move

or activate an individual to maybe, you know, have a dialogue

or have some understanding of a certain issue that's there and,

and a purpose that's there. So with all the art that I've

curated, and the shows that I've put together and curated from,

you know, times with the gallery and so forth and Symmetry that

always, for me, there was always a sense of art that I was

interested in showing was art that activates or art that says

something. So that's always the case, that's always going to be

the case as far as me curating an exhibition.

So with a gallery, I had the opportunity to do a lot of

different things, not only just, you know, work here in the DC

area, but I had an opportunity to travel to new parts of

different areas, going to Africa, of course parts of

Europe and Paris, and I didn't get the chance to go to

Australia, but that's on my list still. And I still want to go to

different places, but I had a chance to actually go to visit

artists and look for art in different places (unclear) I was

very interested in activating that side. But at the same time,

we set up shows, you know, in different parts of the nation as

well. So I used to go to the Black Fine Art Show, for

instance. That was in New York, back in the 70s, in the 80s, in

the 90s, part of the 90s. Taking work to Puerto Rico, taking work

to Los Angeles, and Chicago and setting up shows at different

places, Miami, Basel, two, three years, four years, I think I've

set up shows and Boots, and so forth there and the Boots in New

York. So I was definitely interested in taking art on the

road. So that also gave me an opportunity to curate more

curate not only just in Washington but other places.

So that was also fun and it was also a learning experience. And

I'll continue to do some things along those lines. My own work

kept going, of course, as I mentioned to you earlier, that

I've never really stopped creating and still to this day.

And so growing up in the 60s 70s, and seeing the civil rights

movement, the Black Power movement, and I use art, I feel,

to activate and to create messages. And that's been my

goal. And so most of my art that I do personally, and even some

of the artists I've worked with, I like to create something that

can charge, can move, and grow to someone else, or even my

students always have great critiques. And I used to do art,

and they used to do art, and I used to activate students to do

some incredible, incredible work and some incredible messages.

But we always basically had the talked about things that are

dealing with politics and things that we're dealing with issues

of things, I wanted them to get close to what they're wanted to

say, whether it's--I don't have to go into all the problems that

we have, and all the issues that they face, living issues.

And so my art has been pretty much dealing with the black

community, the black students, especially black male, who

basically, I feel, in many ways have been targeted, many of the

statistics of individuals who are in the jail system, in the

prison system, many individuals were picked up on trumped up

charges and moved into a prison system that is basically, you

know, full of Hispanic, black individuals by large

percentages. So that always been a concern, of mine and I've also

seen that happen face to face and growing up in the

Chicagoland area and that people being arrested for nothing or

being put in prison for nothing and have to have these records

and kind of messes up their life because they have a criminal

record of some kind.

So that's always been a concern of mine, as well as just basic

needs and equal rights and basic things. A lot of my work deals

with protests, because I think it's a right that we have to

protest, and we have a voice in creating a voice, whether it be

for Black Lives Matter or for the LGBTQ community, all of

those things are important, as well as women's rights, which is

incredibly, you know, the history of that is incredible,

in terms of when women were allowed to vote and all those

things should be, you know, important issues and have been

important issues, many issues, as far as housing and redlining.

I mean, it's so many different things to say. So I will always

create those kind of things.

Do you think that there is sort of a unique power

that art possesses in conversations like these ones

that we're talking about the ones that Black Lives Matter

wants to have, and movement politics more generally? You

know, is there something that art gives that is sort of unique

in that conversation?

Um, it's a good question. I guess it's just

basically, it's a narrative, you know, it's a visual

communication. And artists are doing that more and more, and

it's not just black artists, artists of all colors and all

cultures are speaking out more in their art. It's coming

through. You know, Black Lives Matter is started into third

2013, in response to the acquittal of Trayvon Martin. And

basically, it was, of course, a situation where people got

together, once again, to protests and to expose and to

educate, and to tell the story. So it's not just here, but it's

all over the world. And so that is important to me, and it's

important to everyone. And that's why it's growing and

continues to grow. And people have, you know, they're all over

the world, from the UK--it's global. So it's not just a small

thing--Canada--it's everywhere. And so people are interested in

seeing those narratives, I guess more because it helps not only

if you're living in with a family as an adult, but also our

young people that are coming up, what kind of thing can you look

at, that's going to advocate or individuals can see.

And so whether it is like, in my case, I've done some things that

of photographs and marches and people going out and pulling up

signs. And those things are, you know, not only there to educate,

but also we have a responsibility as artists to

paint or create something that is indicative of the times,

which is, you know, these are the times that we're living in.

And this is what happened in 2020. This is what happened in

2019. This is what happened in 2016 or even 2008. President

Obama was elected as the first black president, which was

important, and artists came out for that we did a big show at

that time, with artists who created around President Obama

and his image. His image was a strong image that we needed to

see as the first black president. So that was equally

as important as protesting.

So all those things in unison, in unity, basically, is

educating and giving us a sense of history, where we have been.

I've studied art history, where we've been and where we are now

and how we are, as far as kind of like, individual eyes or the

connection between life and history, and how we view it. And

that's basically what we do, we create what we see and try to do

it in our own way in our own style. In my case, I don't I

don't use a lot of faces, so it's not the face but I try to

work with the the spirit in the connection of a people or union

over people or group of people not necessarily having that

smile or that frown or whatever on their face, but more of what

they're doing and how they're doing they know what their what

you see from an individual or groups of individuals if I'm

using figures of how to best explain the story. The my story

and my own interpretation.

That makes a lot of sense. So--

I hope so. (chuckles)

No, it does. It does. So thinking about sort of

art and the artist's responsibility to represent the

times and it seems like it's like a very personal thing,

which I think most artists would agree. What's your take on the

mural on the ground, the Black Lives Matter Plaza in DC, with

sort of coming at it from the opposite side of not being a

personal representation of, you know, one artists idea, but sort

of a, a government commissioned piece of art that's still making

a very political statement, what do you sort of make of that?

Um, I was very happy to see that in terms of not only

just, you know, the government getting involved and allocating

the funds, and people and the security and all those things

that were necessary to make it happen, but it kind of

transfered to other cities as well, which was good. And what I

make of it, first of all, is that it was a community effort.

So people came from different places. When I say that, I mean,

it wasn't just a black person that was painting this mural,

there are all kinds of people that was painting this mural.

Mhm.

And they all, you know, were involved taking up

the rollers and painting it, and everybody got together as a

community thing, I thought that was very strong. I think that

was always needed. So even with my history of going back to

murals. What I make of it is, I mean, it basically, as I said

the vision has gone all over the world. And not only that, but

many of them even the Breonna Taylor mural that's been painted

in different places, and George Floyd and different places like

that, that those are all statements that are now helping

the public eye to see which is definitely necessary. So

specifically the Black Lives Matter mural and even the street

that is named after that. You know, the White House off of

16th street that you might have been down to see or visit, which

many people have, is kind of a special place, not only to, to

know what has happened at that particular--kind of again, a

historical aspect, but also a place where we realized that it

was a necessary place to claim in terms of like this is so big,

that you have to see this, you have to go down and be there and

see. It has become a meeting place in some regard for folks

to actually engage, a place where protest is happening.

You know, right outside the White House, you probably know,

it's always been innovative in protests, and always been

individuals who had signs there. It was not a new thing. But this

kind of gives a sense of place of where that connection can be.

I guess that's the only way I can explain it. But it's

definitely a strong statement, which was a necessary statement

and hopefully continues to be a necessary statement. And let me

just say this, you know, we shouldn't have to do this. As a

nation, we have to do it, because we have to do it. But we

shouldn't have to do this. You know what I mean? We shouldn't

have to actually say, Okay, we have to paint a mural and say

"Black Lives Matter" so people will see that black lives

matter. You know, nobody really wants to set out to say we need

to do this. So I guess I'm saying is that, yeah, it could

be a street name, anything. It's okay. But it's necessary to do

this so people can see and understand that black lives

matter. And I would say that, you know, if you had a street

that says Hispanic Lives Matter, you know, first responders

matters, nurses matter. All those things do matter, you

know, and it can be a street for all of those, because people

will forget, society forgets, government forgets, you know?

Mhm.

Thinking about the American Indian, how we forget

so quickly who was here before us, they matter those tribes

matter, those individuals matter, you know. I was glad to

see the the American Indian Museum on the mall and I hope

it's in different places in the country. So, you know, Black

Lives Matter, all these lives matter. And we can actually

continue to say all of these things through art somewhere and

somehow that we all understand. That, you know, we are one

people. Everything does matter and people do matter, no matter

what ethnicity you are, no matter where you are, everybody

matters. And that happens, then it would be a great society

Mhm.

A better society I will say.

Yeah, exactly the day that we achieve that as the

day we can stop writing the other things of who matters and

that sort of thing. Once it's achieved, that's kind of the

problem that we're in right now.

That's the problem.

So sort of my last wrap up question is, it's kind

of speculative. And so there's no really right answer or

anything, but in thinking about sort of the trajectory of Black

Lives Matter, as well as, like the art and the cultural output

that has accompanied that. What do you think, sort of the

trajectory of the Black Lives Matter movement is? I know, some

people see it as conceptualized as part of sort of the long

civil rights movement, and they see some threads there, and that

sort of thing. But I think we're still very much at a point where

it's uncertain what the future of its gonna look like. I know

there was a big turnout for a lot of protests this summer, but

we started to see that sort of wane as we moved into fall. So

just thinking, just from your own perspective of sort of what

you think the future of the movement as well as the art that

goes along with that is or could be?

Well, I really don't feel that it's--well, let me say

this, this is now more than just a movement. Pretty sure it's a

corporation. There's people behind it, there's funding

behind it. So it's here to stay as long as it can stay. And I

think as long as people actually want to fund and move it

forward. I think that's an important part. When I say

people, I mean, you know, people who are giving, people are

sharing, people who are continuing to move this in the

forefront. But I think it has moved in a different direction,

not necessarily, because, you know, I hope people think it's

just--and when when I say, people think I mean, I'm just

speculating, of course. But it's beyond that, you know, I mean,

even civil rights is still moving.

Mhm.

Civil Rights, it doesn't change. Black Power

movements are still moving. And so Black Lives Matter movement

will continue to move, as well, because it's, it's not only a

movement, but it's a necessary kind of platform that, you know,

it's all like we were just saying. If things are met and

things are justified, you know, they want justice, because

that's basically an emphasis for all of this is equal justice. It

will continue, you know, and so it's not a separate thing. It's

not that Black Lives Matter is here, and we're here, it's like

everybody is involved with this, especially if you are a person

of color, because it's working on everyone's behalf. And that

might be something that maybe the media needs to really

continue to say, more so than, you know, individuals, because

it's not just a movement of black people. And really what I

saw, going to protests and seeing protest is that there

were more white people than black people protest at Black

Lives Matter Plaza, on the street. And so that is

important, that is important. And like I said, going back to

when I've seen the civil rights movement, started off as a black

movement, and many white, Hispanic and all kinds of

cultures coming together, that became more of a unified

America. And so I see black lives matter as bridging and

putting a unified America together. So that hopefully will

continue. And it can have another name, it doesn't have to

even have a name. The bottom line is bringing people together

in a way that has never been put together before.

The strength of people is basically what I'm talking

about, people all together and speaking out about issues that

affect all of us. So it's not that Black Lives Matter is

talking about black lives. Yes, don't kill us, don't hurt us.

Let us live, let us continue to breath. It's talking about

everybody. It's talking about if black lives matter to you, it

will matter to everybody. And the more that everybody sees

this is how that bridge and that connectedness which we need, as

a unified America, will come together. And so it's a powerful

situation. And it's a powerful group of just everyday Americans

coming together to say, Enough is enough. No justice, we need

justice, we need equal justice, stop killing us, black people

stop arresting black people, stop arresting brown people.

Give us, you know, more justice as a people, basically. So I

don't know where it's going to go. And I think it's going to go

because like I said, there's thousands of people that--it's

not a membership, like you joined, it's of people that

care. And I see that happening, especially with our young people

right now, our young people all over the nation, all over the

world, is that people have had enough of injustice here and

everywhere. And are no fighting for bridging those gaps and

coming together, it's one of the most important things. So it's

going to go nowhere, but forward I think.

I really appreciate that. I think that when you

talked about it sort of going beyond just, you know, it's not

just black people out standing in the streets and protesting

for this, but it really has been a unifying force, especially

this summer. So I really appreciate that. I know I said

that that was my last question. But I was curious if you would

tell me just a little bit about the protests that you were

talking about that you went to? And just a little bit about what

that was, like, just like a minute of your experience?

Well, I hope you had a chance to go out and do some

protesting Joy. I don't know if you had.

This summer, I wasn't able to have a family

member who's immunocompromised. And so I wasn't able to

unfortunately so that's why I'm so curious actually.

Well, yeah, living in Washington. And I've been to

many different varieties of protest. This summer, you know,

even going to some of the protests that was on Black Lives

Matter Plaza and marches that was, you know, Reverend Sharpton

organized and different things. So, my reaction to it,

basically, as I mentioned, was very refreshing. And it's the

twofold. One it is refreshing, like I said, to see so many