Stacia McKellum Interview, November 4, 2020

Okay, we're wherever we're on. We're ready. Sorry, I don't know why I'm so jittery. So I'm Jamie Sanders and today I'll be talking to Stacia McL- Today is November 4, 2020. We're conducting this interview online via TheirStory. And today we'll be discussing Stacia's involvement in Black Lives Matter protests in the Dallas Fort Worth area, mostly focusing on her involvement in recent protests at SMU. So do I have your permission to record this interview?

Yes.

Awesome.

So first, let's start off with a little background. Where are you from?

I'm from Desoto, Texas

I'm from red oak.

Okay, yeah.

So can you tell me a little bit about that area?

Um, I mean, it's a suburb of Dallas, not much really goes on there. I didn't a lot of people from Desoto tend to go to the Desoto High school, but I didn't go to high school in Desoto. But yeah, it's pretty quiet. Lots of old people in my neighborhood, at least.

So how do you feel that growing up there has shaped you?

Well, I think I think I went to the school for one year. And I think that shaped me a lot, in the sense that like, it really showed me some of the work that needs to be done as far as like, um with black people in our educational system, like the difference between like, going to the Desoto school for that one year, and then like transitioning to school in Waxahachie after that. I was like, the availability of resources is really different. And just also, the educational structure in general is really different. So from that, I just learned about that, and like, kind of, like, yeah, there's work that needs to be done in that area.

So can you tell me a little bit about your family?

I have two older brothers, and a younger sister, a mom and a dad. Um my father is disabled. He's been disabled since I was four. He was in an 18 Wheeler accident, because he was a truck driver. My mom currently works in (soft speaking) like, she basically sells funerals. So yeah.

What does that mean?

Basically, like she's a, there's a specific title for it. But like if someone in your family passes and like you go to the funeral home to like, prepare for them to do that, like she'll, she helps you with that. Or like, even before, if you're like preparing, like, Okay, I know that I'm going to die someday, then like, she helps like, get your arrangements in order. So that way it in the event that it does happen, like your family doesn't have to like deal with the burden of like, trying to figure out everything.

Oh okay, so she's a funeral home- Is she a director or she just works there?

She works there. Yeah.

So are you close with your family?

I think so. I'm not close with my older brothers. But like my mom, my sister, and I are pretty close. I think for one also my older brothers. My oldest one is 11 years older than me. And the second one is eight years older than me. So for the longest amount of time, it was just my mom, my sister and my dad in the house, it was just us four, so I'm pretty close with them.

Mm hmm. So the age gap kind of prevented you from getting closer to your older brothers.

Right? And also just like gender differences.

Yeah.

So how does your family feel about your activism?

I actually don't know if they know everything in depth about what I've been doing. I think I never like officially told them I was involved with BLM SMU I think they kind of like put things together. Um, they (don't) know the full extent of the work I've been doing they especially don't know like I was like leading chants at a march of 500 people. But I think they know I'm somewhat involved in like, a Black Lives Matter group.

Yeah, do they know from like social media or something like that? That's how they get to know that.

I think I may have like briefly mentioned things or they know that Ti Who's my close friend, they've seen her like do, news interviews and things like that. So and also like, during quarantine, like they know I would be in the back like on my laptop going to meetings and stuff. So yeah

Oh, so speaking of quarantine, are you staying with them? Are you staying near campus?

I'm on campus right now.

Okay, cool. Um, so are they a little worried about your activism considering all of the violence thats been popping up and stuff like that?

I think because they know so little, they're not worried. But I know if they knew more they would be like, I know I mentioned to you before that I had only gone to the one protest on campus. That's because like, over the summer, my parents like really tried to discourage my sister and I from going, because of like, of course, everything that was going on, they just wanted us to be safe. And so I think if they knew like, I think I feel more comfortable becaus like, of course, there's not like armed policemen at our protests. But I think they would still be, you know, a little scared

Yeah. Do you think they specially didn't want you to go out through the initial George Floyd protest and stuff like that?

Yeah, for sure. I actually mentioned to them a couple of times, I really wanted to go. And they were just like, Yeah, no, you need to stay in the house. Like, do you see everything that's happening? And so? Yeah.

Do you think that has something to do with your identity as an African American? Well, the identity in America?

Oh, yes, I do. Um, Which part? Do you like their fear?

Yeah, their fear of you going out to the protest? Is that because of your, because you're black? Or do you? What do you think about that?

I think, I think that might May, like, have something to do with it, like play a large part in it. I think if I was a white person, like wanting to go and protest, they may think like, less harm may come to me, then me being a black person. And I also think they realize that the stakes are higher for me, like, if, you know, if I were killed, or if I was harmed in any way, or also if I was arrested, you know, like, they the results are, like more damaging for being a black person. And if I was a white person,

like, it seemed like a fear that like I, I know, since I have black parents as well, like a sort of unique fear with the black community's parents.

Yeah,

they're afraid of all this stuff that comes with just being an activist. And, yeah, they have a right to out of that. Anything to do with your gender as well.

Yeah, I mean, my parents have definitely, like, tried to shelter me from things specifically because I'm a woman. And then on top of that, being a black woman, I think if I was a man, they would be, they will feel more confident in me being able to handle myself, I think, but as a woman, they're like, Oh, we need to protect you. You're more fragile. You're more subject to like being harmed.

And since you have brothers have you noticed the difference with like, how they treat you and your brothers?

Yeah, I think, um, and this is also just from other things that happened, because there was like, the 10 year difference of them, raising them and then raising us but yeah, my sister and I are definitely a lot more sheltered than like my brothers were. And I think some of that has to do with like, us being girls and them being boys.

And does, does their feelings and their lack of knowing and also their slight fear affect your activism? In any way?

I think it does. If I concentrate on it a lot. I try to focus more on the work. But like, if I of course focus on like, wow, their fear is, like rooted in a real place. And then I'm like, okay, that becomes more real for me like, Oh, yeah, something could happen to me, that I think that would hinder me from wanting to go out and do the work. So I kind of tried not to focus on I think partially they may be from part of the reason why I don't tell them too much. Because like, it allows me to just kind of stay more focused on what I need to do.

Mm hmm. Um, I asked you about growing up in Desoto, but I want to get more specific about your childhood. Can you tell me about how that was?

Um sure. Um, I mean, I was a good student, for the most part, I was good behavior wise, for the most part. I mean, I had an attitude, you know. Um, my dad was a stay at home dad for the majority of my childhood, since I'm introduced to say, well, so I have a lot of respect for him, because he played a different role of a black man in my life than I had seen, like, outside I've seen more of like, of course, the black man being the provider for the family and not necessarily like the caretaker for the family. And so in my family that was kind of reversed, like my mom was the one that had to go out and work. And my dad was the one that like, stayed with us, went to all of our games like made us did our hair helps us with homework, all of that stuff. So, yeah, I think he was definitely a he definitely allowed me to see more of the positives of black men that you may not necessarily see from, like, just the stereotypes that are out in the world. Um, yeah, so I definitely respect him a lot for that, my mom, we've always been pretty close, because my dad was still, like, stereotypical as a black man in the sense that he was more emotionally distant. And so my mom was the one I kind of went to for that. And I think that just provided a nice balance, because like, even though my mom may have been away more, because she had to work, like, we still had that connection in like, I saw my dad more often. So it just like kind of balanced out. And my sister were 16 months apart. And we actually go to the same school right now. So, yeah, we've always been pretty close. Like we argue a lot. But yeah, we have a pretty good relationship.

Is she involved in activism with you? Or is she just going to SMU too?

She's she's just going to SMU. I think she definitely over the summer wants to go to protest. She definitely has, I think a heart for activism, but I don't necessarily know she like, wants to do it. And like an organizational capacity. Like, I think she would be more okay with like participating in it. I don't know if she would like, I don't know, I guess I would need to talk to her about that. But I know that she definitely like is interested in the activities of it.

Cool. So can you tell me a little bit about your early experiences with the police?

Um, yeah, sure. Actually, my experiences with the police were kind of different. I never really, I didn't know to fear the police too much. like growing up at first, because like, this was my older brothers, there was more turmoil in the household. So sometimes the police had to be called. So initially, and like nothing really bad happened for the most part. So initially, I always thought of "Oh, the police, are who you're supposed to call for help." But as I got older, I noticed that my parents would always kind of like, react a specific way. And then I was like, the catch onto that as in like, okay, maybe the police are not, you know, necessarily good. And so, um, I know, specifically, whenever my, like, Dad got pulled over, it was always like, everybody was on edge. And I didn't really know why, like growing up, and so my parents had to have that conversation with and then I also just get it going up older, I saw it more in the world, it became more apparent to me And so yeah, that's kind of where that.

Okay, um, so you talked earlier about how you went to school in Desoto for like just one year and then you move to Waxahachie? Can you tell me a little bit more about your school life and like, compare and contrast or whatever you like?

Yeah, so I actually went to DeSoto for like, elementary school. And then we transferred to, I don't know if you know what, this is the Life School, Life Charter School. Yes, I went there for elementary, I went second through sixth grade. And so after that, I think they wanted to separate my sister and I, they want to send me to Red Oak and sent her to Oak Cliff. And my parents wanted to keep us together. So they were like, okay, we're gonna put them in Desoto West for a year. And that year was, I don't think, I mean, of course, I enjoyed myself as a middle schooler, but reflecting. I was like, I didn't learn anything that whole year, like I couldn't remember a single thing that I learned. And my parents were always concerned, like, when I never had homework assignments. I was like, "Yeah, they just didn't assign us homework." So, yeah, and then that my parents were like, "Yeah, no, this isn't working." So they put us in an online learning program for two years after that. And so we were able to go to like high school in (Waxahachie,) because they had built a new campus. And so we will also be able to be together. So yeah, the difference in that was very apparent, I think.

Yeah, like I actually lived in DeSoto for a little bit of time. So I went there for elementary school and my parents moved to Red Oak (for the same reason.) So you think it's like a unique, like, do you think that because they're black parents, they're like really making sure that education is at the forefront and that's why they want to make sure that your schooling was good.

Yeah, I think my parents have always like >instilled in my sister and I that you have to have education to be successful in life. And so That's why at a young age, I always like tried to pursue doing well in school. And so often I could just see how they prioritize that because my brothers had went to West. And so my mom was like, on the fence about sending us there. But I think we were at her doctor's office, and she was talking to some person that happened to go there at the time about it. They were really like endorsing like, no, it's gotten a lot better, you should put them in there. And so she was like, okay, and that ended up not being the case. But yeah, it just really show that she, they always tried to prioritize our education. And I think it was just a little bit unfortunate, because I know that's something that happens a lot with black families. It's like all we have to go to the white areas for our children to be educated. And that's I think that's very unfortunate, because that even that thought process stayed with me even when she was in colleges. I was like, Oh, I don't want to go to HBCU, which is like, a wrong way to think like, you can get a good education at HBCU with like, kind of this thought process like, Oh, well, if you go to a white institution, you're getting a better education. And so I wish that like the work would be done in the elementary schools and like, the middle schools, and like more resources would be given to them so that way, we don't look at Black education that way.

Yeah. Yeah, I completely understand that. I remember when I was going through that experience of transitioning from a quote unquote, Black school to a white school, there was a lot of things that I noticed immediately can you tell me the differences between going to the Black school and the white school.

Yeah, for one thing, like I kind of mentioned,homework was obvious difference, because I didn't get it at West. Also, just books, like the books in DeSoto were limited and very worn down and old. And we had more access to those things in Waxahachie, and also just access to technology, like the technology, at West was very old and limited. So yeah just things like that.

How about like the other kids?

Yeah, also, the kids at West were, I mean, quote unquote, bad like a lot of them. I know specifically, where I learned, like, realize this may not be like a school where I'm progressing is because like they had this thing called a common assessment. It was basically like a test you took for each subject. And as an incentive to like, get everyone to pass the principle was like, "Okay, if out of every grade, like if everybody passes all of their common assessments, you get to go to like a pizza party or do something." And so, my seventh grade class, only three of us passed all of our common assessments. And I was like, wow, like, out of like, 200 students out of my class, only three of us pass all of our common assessments. So I think I'm not not gonna necessarily blame the children and like them not wanting to learn, but I do think that some of them may not have went to school to learn.

Yeah. So shifting gears a little bit to you like

your life now. So are you a sophomore? Just trying to

clarify,

I'm a junior

Your a Junior. Okay, so how is college going

for you right about now?

Um, I think it's going pretty well. I mean,

quarantine college is definitely different. But, um, the parts

are positive, they're still trying to keep relatively

normal, have been still progressing, and I think I'm

doing okay.

Okay. Um, so, shifting gears to SMU,

specifically, what made you choose that school?

Well, my parents actually put a lot of

limitations on where I could go for school. Like they wanted me

to be local, um and so like, not only just in state, but also

like, near the house that limited a lot of my options. But

I know my mom, or at least I don't know, like with you, but

like with a lot of black people. SMU has a lot of clout. They're

like, Oh my gosh, that's such a good school. So my mom had told

me about that. And I was like, Okay, I'll look into it. So I

started looking into it. And when I went on a tour, I was

like, Okay, this is where I want to go because like it kind of

just checked all the boxes that I wanted, like I wanted a kind

of big school but like not too big. Like I wanted the

professor's to be able to know me. It was going to be close to

home like the people seem really nice. The dorms were beautiful.

All those things and it had what I wanted (to study.) I was like,

Okay, this is where I want to go.

Yeah, what's your major by the way? Political

Science. So there's like I like went to UNT for undergrad. So

this is like conception of SMU as being a quote unquote, white

school. So what is it like being a black student at SMU?

Yeah, I will admit, um, I wasn't necessarily

thinking about that aspect when I was looking at schools because

I went to school in Waxahachie. So I had, some of the students

at my high school were like, "oh, SMU is like really white."

And I was like, "Oh, well, we go to school and white people now,"

it'll be fine. But when I went here, I didn't realize it was

this white. And so that, that adjustment l was definitely

interesting. At first, I felt like I had to, like, be a

different person, kind of at first. And so that was

definitely a weird transition.

And are you like currently working? Or are you

just focusing on school?

I work on campus, I work in the residence

life and student housing office.

Okay, cool. Um, so how does activism fit into

your daily life?

Um, I think it's just really like, as far as

like, a practice, like, trying to point out the different ways

that you can try to make the world better in the moment, it's

definitely becoming more apparent after this election.

And it becomes harder to like, know when to like, do something

that's going to be productive, or and then do something that's

going to be like, confrontational. And so I know,

specifically, like, yesterday, I was walking back to my dorm, and

I saw

a student like, in America flag shorts, and actually, Ti told me

that she was like, any person that wears like, American flag

outfit. That's kind of a red flag. And so that was the first

thing I saw. And I was, and that's the first thing I

thought, I was like "ah, its probably nothing." And then I

walked by, and I turned around, I see that they have like a

Trump flag cape on. I was like, Okay, now in this moment, I

could like be confrontational, but then I like told my BLM team

about it. And they were, they were like, kind of like, okay,

so we, as black students on this campus on this very white

campus, we need to lean on each other in this time. So they

wanted to, like put together an event where like, we all just,

like, got on zoom and study together. And like, just work

comfort, like for each other in this moment. And so I think

that's really what activism is. Sometimes, sometimes it's like,

of course disrupting. But sometimes it's like, Okay, what

is the best way to serve the community that we're in? And

let's do that.

That's a great definition. I really like that.

Um, so how does it affect your relationships, like your

friendships and your significant others?

I think, as far as my friendships, and my

significant other, we're all pretty much on the same page. I

think with my parents, like we kind of mentioned, it's kind of

hard, because my parents are more old fashioned in thinking,

and a lot of ways. And so like, being an activist in general is

like, not even just like, pro black its like, for everyone.

And so I think sometimes it's like, hard for them to

understand that. And even sometimes, like, I don't

necessarily think my parents are pro black, because I think that

they recognize a lot of issues in the black community. And so

they're not necessarily like that. I think they're also like,

well, "black people do this, and this is wrong. So they need to

fix this." And I'm just like, well, there's a bigger picture

there. You know, it's like when you're oppressed, you know, you

kind of need to fight the oppressor first, before you can

fix what's in the community. And so I think in terms of our

relationship, that's kind of been hard, because they don't

understand that but at least with my friendships, and like my

romantic relationship, everybody understands that. And so it's

okay, about that.

Yeah, I'm kind of want to probe real quick with

that term, you just said, So what exactly is "pro black?"

I kind of think of it as like, you're trying to

advance the black community in all of the areas that you can,

as many as you can. Um, I'm still trying to like work with a

definition because I've heard some people think, well, if you

date interracially like you can't be pro black, because

you're not like advancing the pro black. That means advancing

the black family. And I'm still like, trying to see if I

necessarily agree with that. But I definitely think that being

pro black is like trying to advance the black community as

much as you can. So like shopping with black businesses,

helping your fellow black neighbors out, like sewing into

black communities.

Oh, okay. So shifting gears a little bit to

like we've already talked about this whole time, but like, let

me just ask specifically, what are your first memories of race

in general?

Um like, I think I'm very different in the

sense that like, I didn't have experiences or Race, like young,

I think I always had a concept of me being black, but it never

was like,

like a thing that was wrong or like necessarily different until

I got to college. Because I always kind of knew I was, I

always knew I was black. But I wasn't as aware about that I was

black until I got to college. And I'm like, "wow, no one looks

like me." And also just like, being in an environment where

the culture is also very different. Because like I said,

even in high school, like, we still had at least a half black

population. So it's like, all the white students are a little

bit different from you. But then you have this other group

that's, like, similar to you, so you don't feel out of place. And

so but when I got here, I was like, "Okay, so I'm this thing

that's different." And I also felt like it was something that

kind of made a barrier, like in me engaging with other people,

because freshman year, they had this thing called Camp or our

like, they ship those off to this camp, and we like did camp

activities, or whatever. And so i a lot of that time, like when

I would try to engage with different people. It was just

always hard. And I never knew why. Because I also knew, like,

the people around me had like a really easy time, like, building

relationships with people. And I didn't really understand why.

And when I thought about it more after the fact, I was like, I

think it might just be like, like a culture difference. And

like, it's making it hard to like, connect. Because like,

we're, we're different in that way. And so like we think

differently, and we may talk differently, and so, yeah.

Like, do you think maybe it's because he grew

up in DeSoto? Which is I looked it up before this about 50%.

Black and I think considered a black community?

Yeah, no, it's definitely I think its a black

community, like we would have one person that was white, it's

like our school. And so yes, I think being black was it was

just a thing, but I didn't really have a concept of it

until I like was around majority white people. And then I was

like, "Okay, so this is completely different than what

I'm used to."

Yeah. So now I'm going to shift gears to be more

specific about activism. So like, We're going in there now.

Okay. Um, so how did you first get involved in activism?

Um, I think I kind of mentioned it to you

before, as far as like doing activism work, it was because my

friend Ti reached out to me, after everything happened with

George Floyd and she wanted to make a GoFundMe to pass out t

shirts, blacklivesmatter t shirts on campus, and she ended

up getting way more money than she anticipated. And she was

like, You know what, we can actually do some good on campus

with this. And so she was like, she wants to make a team of

people that she trusted and to do the work with. And so she

reached out to me. And I was like, "Yeah, no, I want to do

that, because I never really had that" opportunity presented to

me. And so that's kind of how I got into like, doing the work.

But I think my time in college, like I've always, I was building

on like, my black consciousness. And so I was always like,

looking into black issues and learning about them. So I was

already kind of, I guess, in a way priming myself to get to

this place to like, actually be in a position to do the work,

because I was like, already educating myself on it. So yeah.

Do you think that's because like, that was

easier to do since you were in college? I feel like a lot of

people I know, have built on their consciousness, in school

in college.

Yeah, like I said, I think, because I'm going

to a white school. Like, okay, well, let me really investigate

what it means to be black. And so I was looking into that,

because like, I never really realized that that was a thing

until I got to school. And also because I just like, am not

under the umbrella of like, my parents. And so I could kind of

just like, investigate whatever and like, go and learn whatever

I want to learn or know more about.

Mm hmm. So you mentioned your friend Ty, and

then getting a group of people together. So when did the Black

Lives Matter chapter at SMU, become itself basically,

officially

I think. I would say that it all kind of

came together early June. Like by that point, she already had

so many ideas. So by that point, we were already like having

weekly meetings, getting calendars together, having

meetings with other people to like, get stuff started. So like

as soon as we touch campus like we're going so yeah, I would say

early June was kind of like, okay, we're doing this.

So are you like a part of the school (chapter)? Or

are you just based at SMU because you are all SMU

students.

Um, I don't know. We wouldn't necessarily

say we're a chapter because we're not like Officially

chartered by the school like, we wanted to make sure we stayed

separate from the school. So we didn't like endure any type of

intimidation or anything. So yeah, we're just kind of like, I

know one way that Ti likes to conceptualize it is like Black

Lives Matter is like a sentence. So it's like, we're just a group

of students that come together, and are trying to, like, spread

that message. So you came in,

what's your title again? As a member?

Um, I don't necessarily have a title, like,

we're all pretty fluid, I think. And in that department, but I, I

don't know, I know, Ti at one point was like, "well if we had

to put a label on you and probably would be 'vice

president'". But for the most part, we're all pretty, like,

equal in that area. Like we all have pretty much the same

weighted voices on like decision making and like tasks and all

that.

Okay. Um, yeah, because Bethany called you. Vice

President so I wanted to, be sure.

Yeah, I guess I mean, if you have to put a name

on it, I guess.

Hmm.

So.

So you only did so you've only been to one protest so far?

Correct.

Yeah, I mean, I guess if you count the like,

black student athlete commission or committee where they had a

protest. Before that, I think it was I forgot it was for Jacob

Blake, like they had one before our protest. So I guess that

makes two way. Yeah.

But you organize the one that you mentioned

before, right?

Yes.

Can you tell me how that came together?

Yeah, so um,

I don't even know when like, we first realized that, like, we

want to do a protest, like as soon as we came back, because it

was pretty early in the semester when we decided to do it. But it

definitely took like, a good amount of planning and work. And

like reorganizing as time went on, like, just making sure that

we had speakers, we had to map out the route and like, walk the

route and make sure it was like, okay, and like, check the

weather, and it get supplies and all that. So it was a lot, but

like seeing- I- we all kind of anticipated, like it might be a

lot of people going just based off of the social media

engagement. But we never anticipated like that many

people. And so I think that just made it all worthwhile.

So how was that day? Like? Can you tell me a

little bit about it?

Yeah, no, it was, it was very stressful,

because like, like I said, we couldn't really gauge for sure

how many people were going to be there. And so we only had two

megaphones. And so Ti was on one and I was on the other one. So

we were like, kind of worried people. If we were going to be

able to hear each other if, everybody was going to be hear,

like we would be uniform on chants. And so we were kind of

worried about that, because we weren't sure if it was going to

be like, okay, two people came or 500 hundred people came. And

just like getting everything together last minute, was like

kind of stressful, but like, as soon as it was like time Oh, and

also because it like, kind of started raining that day. But it

wasn't crazy. So as soon as everything like started, it was

like, very exhilarating for me. Um, I think also, particularly

when Ti gave her speech. It was just like, yeah, we're out here.

And we're gonna desturb this environment. And we're gonna

fight for our lives and like, it just really felt good and

rewarding. Also, this so many people were like, wanting to do

that with you and also people that were driving by that honked

at us and all of that. I was like, wow, okay, people actually

care. So yeah, no, it was very, very uplifted and encouraged

after and just like, my heart was warm after

Can you tell me the route?

Yeah, so we actually walked mostly on the

outskirts of SMU we started at like, the gate eight over the

stadium is it's like, um, like blank little stair well

situation right there. So we started there, and like past

Highland Park church, and walked up the side of Hillcrest and

stayed that way, and then like, just like, made a rectangle and

ended back at gate 8

what was the campuses reaction or like

passerbys.

For the most part, it was it's too bad. Like

I said, we have people that supportted it. And we're, like,

honking at us. But we did. And actually, I found this out

recently, and I didn't know this. So we had somewhat

coordinated with the police just in the sense like, they wanted

to make sure that they reached out to us and made sure that

wanted us to make sure that they reached out to us and wanted us

to know that they wanted us to be safe basically. And so They

wanted, they had an agreement with us that they would be in

the surrounding area. But we were like, "We don't want you to

be seen by the protesters, because some people will not

react well to that." And so they were in like in unmarked cars

around the area. And so apparently, like a lot of people

had tried to, like, come in, like counter protest. And like,

they were stopped. And I didn't know that I just knew before

then we had like one guy that was in a trump shirt, like

sitting on the side, trying to intimidate us. And, and he was

like, like, running alongside protestors, I guess. Like, I

don't know what he was trying to accomplish with that. But there

was that one person. And there was another person that was

like, he kind of looked like he was in militia gear, but like,

not necessarily like weapons. And I think that was just

another intimidation tactic. So there was like those few in

between people, or like somebody that drove by, like threw up the

middle finger. But other than that, I was like, okay, we

didn't have too many people. Like, that was another thing. We

were really afraid of, like counter protesters. And we never

really had that. But like, as I just found out, like, two days

ago, like apparently a lot of people were like, trying to do

that.

Yeah, I was gonna ask this later. But like, are

you guys worried about counter protesters? They got their

beginning kind of violent recently.

Yeah, I think recently, um, the fear has been

a lot stronger. I think back then I wasn't afraid. I don't

know. Maybe I was just like playing a little gangsta. At

that point. I was like, "oh, let them come, you know, it's fine."

But like, now the fears have been a lot stronger to where

like, as BLM, we're like, okay, we kind of want to put out

advertisement, like, maybe don't wear your BLM apparel during

this time. Like, especially Ti like, apparently, she had like,

gotten threats around the time of that protest. Like, um in

like group chats and stuff. And it had been, like, reported to

the police. And so they were kind of afraid, like, something

might happen after the election with her and then everybody in

our group was like, okay, y'all, we just need to stay inside. And

that was also just very disheartening for me, because I

was like, Why? Because of the results of an election, should I

not be allowed to leave my room, you know, as a black person, or

as the like, person that participates in BLM? So I think

during this time, it's like, definitely more scary than it

was a couple months ago.

Yeah. Okay. Um, so I kind of want to shift gears

a little bit, we're definitely to come back to the election.

But um, what do you think makes student activism different from

other kinds of activism?

Honestly, I don't know, I know that because

we both have the same goals. But I think I don't know if I would

argue this fully. But I think because students on a campus is

like, a smaller environment, like your reach is a lot

stronger. And you probably have a like, better chance of like,

actually getting things done. And also like, because students

pay to go to the university there at so it, least to some

degree, if you get enough people to mobilize the university will

kind of have to listen to you because they want to take your

money. And so yeah, I think it's more effective in that way,

where it's like, you're just in the city, like you have other

people that are contributing, I guess, more to thst city's

government. And so they're like, "Okay, well, we only need to

worry about appeasing these people, and not necessarily

these other people."

Okay, so like a lot of people like across the

country, are like around your age group are going out there.

So what do you think makes them keep going out there to fight?

Like, what makes you guys different? more passionate?

Yeah, I mean, I'm honestly, I've been so proud

of that. I think. I think, from my generation, I've kind of

heard both to where some people are like, okay, we're tired,

like, it's been going on for so long. But I think there's also

another half of our generation that like, uses that fire to

like, know, that we can make a change is like, Okay, well, if

we keep going at some point, it's going to happen. I think,

also, we have the benefit of knowing that time is kind of on

our side, like we're young. And so we can if we fight for it, we

can see it within our like, lifetime. And so I think that

kind of encouragement, like, keeps people going and keeps

people hopeful.

And you mentioned you call it fire, so I'm going

to use that term again. Um, is that fire always constructive?

Or is there occasionally times when it can burn too bright?

Yeah, no, that was definitely one thing I

thought of when you asked the last question, I think, um, that

fire can be used in a more radical way to where you're

like, it just depends on how you're viewing the situation.

Like, I think the desire and the passion is still the same. But

if you're like, "Okay, well, we need to just destruct everything

and start over," then you're more likely to go out and like

Be more violent and do more illegal activities. Whereas if

you're like, Okay, "we just need to like, tweak some things

within the system," then you're more likely to like, not do

that. So I think if the fire is still good, but it has to be

contained in a way where you're not distracting from your

message, I definitely could understand why people would

reach a point to where they wanted to act out in that way.

But I think at the end of the day, like when you don't contain

that fire, it just distracts from your message, because

people only see you as somebody that's like, breaking things

now. And that's somebody that's like crying out for help, you

know, or crying out, because you don't want to be treated like

you don't matter anymore. And that message kind of gets lost

when you let that fire kind of go out of your boundaries.

Yeah. Okay. So shifting gears a little bit away

from student, like student activism and talking more about

like Black Lives Matters in general. So can you tell me a

little bit about your feelings about police brutality?

Oh, yeah, I mean, I don't even know what I

can say. Besides that, it sucks. Um, I think it's just really,

it's really sad and unfortunate, that as black people, we have

this like, completely different experience with the police from

everyone else. Because to everyone else, like the police

are the superheroes that the people that you call, like I

said, that's how I viewed them when I was younger. That's who

you call when you're in distress, but it's like as black

people, we don't know who to call, you know, it's like, when

something happens, it's like, Okay, do I just deal with this

situation that I'm in? Or do I call the police and like, risk

them killing me. And it's really unfortunate, because I think,

like, now, when I see police, it's like, I don't know, to

whether or not I should feel safe. And like, a lot of people

don't have that experience. And it's really frustrating, because

they can't relate to you on that, or can't understand that.

So it's like, when people are like, black- "back the blue."

And like, "we stand with the police officers," it's like, you

don't even understand that, like, as a black person. Like,

on a good day, yes, I could get a cop that like, you know, helps

me out. But that's not always a guarantee. And so I think it's

really frustrating that you don't always run into people

that like, understand what that means.

So like, Can you define exactly what police

brutality is to you?

I think, definitely the use of

unnecessary and excessive force, and of course, deadly force on

people. Um, when other options can be taken, I see a lot of

times, and that's when it becomes a race thing for- first

for me, when you see white people that like maybe resisting

arrest, and they get to live to tell the story. But like, with

black people, if they resist arrest is like, you're

automatically, you know, killed or harmed in some way. It's

like, that's not. That should automatically be the response to

resisting arrest, like there are other options that can be taken.

And so when the police respond to the actions of someone, in a

way, that's just like, inappropriate and completely

unnecessary, and it ends up costing somebody their life like

that, or harming them in some way, like that's what it is.

Okay, so, um, you're realitively young, so

like, I don't know if you have any deep remembrances of it, but

like, what were your first ideas about? blacklivesmatter before

you got involved, like when you were younger?

Yeah, I mean,

I think I definitely saw them in like, oh, respectable light,

like I saw them as people like, okay, these are the people that

are going out and protesting when these things are happening

in the black community, because it wasn't just like, you know,

when Trayvon got killed, or Sandra Bland got killed, like,

of course, it was something that like shook our world. But at

least for me, and like my family at that time, like, we were

upset, but we stayed in our houses. And so to see the people

that were like, going out and like saying, like, "no, this is

wrong Enough is enough." Like that was very, that was very

encouraging image and inspirational images. So that

was my first though like,

Mhm. So like, do you ever, like have any specific

thoughts about Trayvon Martin, when that happened? How did you

feel?

No, yeah, I definitely I felt very confused.

Because I couldn't understand even at that age, like how

someone who's walking home by himself, could end up dead

because like he's a black man in a hoodie, walking in an area

where I guess he wasn't supposed to be, and even on top of that,

like how he couldn't even defend himself and be protected by the

law after that, like the fact that George Zimmerman was able

to kill him from some law that they pulled out of their boot

after the fact, it was very confusing and disheartening,

even at that age.

Yeah. Um, I want to like shift specifically to

George Floyd, if you're okay with that.

When did you hear about what happened to George Floyd?

My mom actually briefly mentioned to me, we're

at the kitchen table. She was like, did you hear about that

guy like they were on his neck or something like that. And the

sad part is like, it didn't even like, hit me that hard hearing

that news. I was just like, Oh, well, it's another Tuesday, you

know. But once I like saw it, that was just me hearing about

it. But once I like saw it, that's when I was like, wow,

like, they just have no shame at this point. That they like,

stayed on that man's neck for eight minutes. And like, allowed

him to die. So yeah, that was like my first time hearing about

it is seeing it on TV.

Yeah, did you see the whole video?

I think I did end up seeing the whole video. I

tried not to for the longest time because I didn't know if I

could take it. But I think for the purposes of me just being

informed about everything that happened, because also people

when these situations happen, people, like make so many

excuses for the police. It's really crazy. And so I was like,

Okay, well, let me watch everything that I've said

everything that was done and get all the information and see if I

can understand where these people are coming from. And so

that's when I was like, Okay, I need to watch the whole thing.

Yeah. So what do you think made his death

different? Like an explosion of protests happened after him? Why

do you think that happened?

Yeah, I think, because there were so many

things that like, added into it, that like made it such a big

deal. For one it was because like, the police were called on

him for a fraudulent $20 bill. For two like, so many police

officers were there during the rest. And still, they like

didn't do anything. And also on top of that, like, when we see

people, when we see the police shoot people it's like, it's

like a one second thing. You know, like with the benefit of

the doubt, like they just lost control in that one second, or

they reacted too quickly. A second, but it's like you had

eight minutes while you were on this man's neck to decide to

change your mind. And like, let him live. And we sat there and

watched this man die. Like for those eight minutes, I think

that really just like, triggered a rage in the black community

that we hadn't seen before. Because that was just a very

unique situation that we had had to deal with before.

Yeah, so it seems more like a conscious choice

instead of an automatic response.

Yeah. And also just like the body language that

he took, you know, His hands were his pockets. He was just

relaxed. People were standing there pleading with him to like,

get up and he was just like, not responsive. So yeah

yeah. Okay, so shifting from George Floyd

stuff. Breanna Taylor was also someone who recently died around

that time. How do you feel about the way people reacted to

Breonna Taylor?

I mean,

do you need a minute?

No, I think for Breanna Taylor, it just hits in

a different way. And I think it highlights a lot of issues that

we even have within the black community. Because I think I

think that a lot of people rally for her, but I don't think it

was at the same extent as it was for George Floyd. And I think

that a lot of this because she was a black woman. And like,

that's very disheartening for me because I feel like had she been

a black man, it may have been different. Because also like a

lot of people try to paint the George Floyd situation a

different type of way. They were like, Oh, he's a criminal. Like

he served what happens to him or whatever. But like Briana Taylor

was an upstanding citizen in her bed asleep. Like there was no

reason why, like, her killer shouldn't have been arrested.

But yeah, and it's not even necessarily that I think that

the black community could have gone harder for Breonna Taylor,

but it's also just like, people in power don't care as much when

it's a black woman because of the Attorney General in Kentucky

is a black man. You know, and he still is like, "well I stand

with the police". So it's just yeah, it's very disheartening

for for me with (unknown noise)

Do you think it's because of your identity as a

black woman?

Yeah, I definitely think that

contributes a lot to it. I'm very interested in black woman

issues particularly. And so I had like, looked a lot into the

Breonnna Taylor situation. And also just like a lot of

instances where black women dealt with police brutality and

like, nobody even knows about those situations. And I'm just

like, well, what's the difference? And then for me, it

just comes down to like, Okay, well, this is black woman. And

these other situations are black man. Of course, there are a lot

of situations with black men that we don't know about too.

But it's like, it's not at all even an accurate reflection to

think that Sandra Bland, and Breonna Taylor are the only two

black woman to do with police brutality. And so yeah, I was

gonna say something else, but I forgot what it was.

That was good.

I want to like we're winding down. I don't want to keep you

too long, though. This is really good. I do want to ask a

question about the violence surrounding the protests. So

like, a lot of people have defined what happened around it

rioting which you use that term?

I actually, I don't think that I would. I

mean, I think if someone else uses it, just like, for the sake

of like, being on the same page, I would, but I don't, my first

thought, when I hear those stories happen isn't that

they're rioting, you know, like, for me writing is like all their

trouble making or, like, there's just a bad, very bad connotation

associated with rioting. And for me, I don't see it that way. I

don't necessarily agree with it, either. But it's like, I can

sympathize with them in a way that like a lot of people

aren't, and so I don't necessarily see that. As

rioting. I mean, I definitely think it's violence. And I

definitely think it's wrong, but like, I don't associate the same

like connotations that people other people do with what

they're doing.

So, once again, we're gonna shift gears to like,

defunding the police, what exactly what you call the

funding the police?

For me, it's just taking some of the

resources that the police are receiving for certain things and

allocating them to other areas, at least for me, um, because I

know specifically, this was something that like BLM had

worked on, we have crafted a White House petition to defund

the police in the area of like them dealing with mental health

crises. And like, taking some of that money, and like using it to

maybe create a committee that's like specialized in mental

health crises and sending those people out to deal with those

instead of the police. But I think defund the police is kind

of like a trigger word for conservative conservatives,

where they're like, "Oh, no, you can't take money away from the

police." But it's like, if they're not doing a good job in

certain areas, and even a lot of police officers themselves, say

they're not equipped for certain things. Like take that

responsibility from them, and then use some of the resources

that are going towards that and allocate them to something

that's actually going to make the community better, better.

And that's what like, that means for me at least.

So I want to ask questions about the DFW area

specifically, like, I'm from Texas, too and from the area.

And I know that like racism here is like, a different a- like a

different animal. What are some Dallas Fort Worth, like, issues

that you think should be addressed?

I think, for one, and I think I may have

heard this somewhere that like Dallas is one of the most

segregated cities in the nation. And I definitely I don't know if

that's true, but I definitely think it's very segregated. It's

like, oh, like Dallas is supposed to have all of these

amazing houses. And like all the rich people and celebrities live

in Dallas, and I'm like, that's not my experience. You know, I

go "Ruby's" chicken, in Oak Cliff Or, you know, and I'm

like, I see, you know, the chickens in people's front yards

and stuff. And so like, it's really crazy that, like, those

two things can coexist in the same city. And like, no bridge

is being made between them. It's like we can have, like Dallas

has a very bad homeless people problem. But yet we have all of

these rich people that also live in Dallas, and like, those two

things can coexist. And that kind of rubs me the wrong way. I

wish it wasn't like that. Because it's like, we have a

city where like so much money is available. But yet we have so

many people that like sleep under bridges. Yeah.

So I was going to ask about chief Hall But I feel

like we should talk more about the election towards the end

here. So like, what do you think? The like, like, what do

you think the results of the election are gonna affect? How

do you think they're gonna affect the Black Lives Matter

movement.

Um, I hope that it doesn't like cause people to

be so intimidated, at least like right after the election

happens, because I know that Trump supporters are gonna come

out the woodwork. From what I hear, that's what happened in

the 2016 election. And that's where like some conflict had

took place, because like, a lot of people were like, really bold

about being Trump supporters. I see. Okay, sorry, I think that

not planning for the worst, I think that we're definitely

going to have a lot of work ahead of us if Trump wins. Um, I

know, like a lot of people that are like jumping to the worst,

they're like, "oh, the Proud boys are gonna come out and like

wreak havoc and all of that. But I'm not gonna think that

negatively, I definitely think that with Trump in office, just

the nature of how he is as a person, black people are gonna

have to fight a lot harder, if he win now I don't necessarily

think that all of our issues are going to be solved if Biden is

in office, either. But, yeah, and just the outcome of the

election, a lot of people that aligned with Trump's ideals, are

going to try and make it hard, I think, for BLM to do the work

that we're trying to do. But I think we're gonna have to push

through, regardless.

Yeah.

Um, and since we're winding down into like, the last four

minutes, I'm gonna ask you some closing questions. So why do

you? Why do you keep going out there to do these protests and

organize these things?

Yeah, I don't, I don't think I can ever get to

a place as a black person where I can lose hope, like it gets,

definitely gets hard, and it gets exhausting, and it gets

tiring, and get sad. But I have like, the people that I love in

my family to think about the future generations of black

people that I have to think about, and I just feel a

particular responsibility in my life, to do what I can to ensure

that they can have a better life and a better experience in this

country than I've had. And even so like, now, like the people,

the black men and the black women in my family that I love,

I have to fight so that they don't get killed by police, you

know, or that they don't have to experience a lot of things that

have been going on. So yeah, that's what keeps me motivated.

Yeah. So what do you want people in the people

now and in the future to know about the Black Lives Matter

movement in SMU, or in general

I want them to know that the Black Lives Matter

movement isn't just for liberals and black people, like Black

Lives should matter to everyone. You know, and by saying Black

Lives Matter isn't saying that all lives don't matter, or black

lives matter more. And we're saying that black people have a

tendency to be disregarded in this country. And I don't think

anyone can disagree with that. Like I think most conservatives

even realize that that is definitely a thing that happens

in our country. And so it's, it's not exclusive. Like it's a

movement that should everyone should be on board about. So

yeah.

And I feel like a lot of activists, like have someone

who, like an activist in the past who inspired them, which

one inspires inspires you the most? Um, I think Currently, um

Sonia, Renee Taylor has been inspiring me the most. Because

we actually had her speak to SMU students, Fuzhou for an event

and I was just like, doing a lot of research on her work. And

like, she's really putting in the work. A radical self love

and like how that like, um really engaged with the Black

Lives Matter movement. And she's just doing a lot of great

things. And she just has a lot of nuggets of wisdom to give.

And so I just find myself completely in awe a lot of times

over everything that she says and does. And of course, like

the classic of Martin Luther King, Rosa Parks, all of those

people. I think Rosa Parks particularly because even though

like we all know, it was staged, it was still like a very scary

thing for her to have to do that. And yeah, like I respect

that a lot.

Yeah, um, and last question. Are there any

questions I should have asked you.

No, I think I think you (covered everything)

question. I think you did a good job.

Aw thank well were definitely done. So I'll

stop the recording.

You did-