Kim Michael Interview, September 26, 2020

I just want to start beforehand by saying it is September 26, 2020. We are doing this interview over Their Story. My name is Bailey Murray, and I'm interviewing Kim. Do I have your consent to proceed with the recording?

Absolutely. Go right ahead.

Awesome. So, let's get started. So, let's start with what's your name and your age, something simple.

I'm Kimberly Michael, and I'm 28 years old.

Awesome. Awesome. So, my first real question we're going to just dive right into this is, um, how would you as a person start off by, you know, describing your sexuality in regards to the LGBT spectrum?

A so that kind of depends on the day and who I'm around. So, most the time I really comfortably identify as pansexual. But if I'm out of the office, or if I'm in a large group of people where I really don't want to have to explain what that means, I'll opt for bisexual and sometimes, you know, you're just feeling like, the cool color palette. So, you go bisexual, like, that's how my whole shtick goes.

Okay, and just for the, you know, sake of the recording, can you describe your idea of pansexuality to me? Because I know a lot of people have, you know, sometimes an issue trying to explain it.

Yeah, well, so one of the first ways it was described to me, which I know is a way that makes some people uncomfortable is this concept of hearts not parts, it's attraction to a person to a personality to a being, regardless of the physical form in which they inhabit. And I kind of like that concept of it's about the mind and the heart and not about, you know, the, what they look like, what, how they identify.

I like that, and how would you describe bisexuality if you're, you know, talking to a coworker, and you don't feel like talking about all that?

Typically, with bisexuality, it's like, oh, I like men and I like women. And I like people who identify either within that spectrum, but not quite those far ins and people outside of the spectrum. It's, it's just a thing. I just like everybody. Yeah, if I'm, if I'm really joking, or if I can be comfortable with people, I'm like, everyone is hot, and I don't know how to handle it. And that's generally what I what I go with.

I like that. I like that. Um, so conversely, how would you sort of describe your gender in regards to the spectrum.

So in regards to the spectrum, I've thought about this a lot, and I'm a cisgender, female, I'm totally chill with that, and that's where we are.

I love it. And so, like I said, you do say your session or any of thought a lot about it? Do you sort of see your own gender as occasionally being at least semi fluid, like, on some days, you do feel a little bit more masculine, or, you know, you're just straight up: I'm a girl, I'm happy, let's do it.

So, I, I've kind of taught myself to separate what it feels to be a woman, and masculine versus feminine versus androgynous aesthetics. And there are days where I am like, I could really go for a masculine aesthetic today. And then there are other days where I'm just like, I need a dress, I need flowers in my hair, I need to look like a fairy princess that has walked out of the garden. It's that it's, you know, I played around with Snapchat filters. I like the ones that kind of make you look like a traditional, like, male. And I'm just like, Oh, I'm very handsome. I like this very much. So, it's like, I'm not I'm not afraid to like, kind of like swing over to that aesthetic, it could just be like, this is nice. This is a nice thing today. But like, all in all, when they really get down, it's just like, you know, like, womanhood, and you just move forward, whatever that means.

Yeah, um, we're going to talk a little bit sort of about, you know, your past and your current involvement in the LGBT community. So, my first question, I guess kind of just hinges off that last thing I said is, do you sort of consider yourself to be big within the LGBT community? Or is it sort of more reserved to, I have a bi flag hanging on my wall, or, you know, I wear the Pan colors occasionally type of thing.

So I'm not a big community, community person, I guess I don't, I don't make an effort to like, reach out and go to pride parades and go to events and organize and because I'm anxious, and I don't like being around people, and that's just not like what I'm super into. But I also make an effort not to hide who I am. And I'm very, very happy to step up and correct people if they make a wrong assumption, or to just be very, very open about my own experiences, particularly in the workplace, which I know can be kind of a dangerous thing to do in some places. I'm not afraid to be like, oh no, I have a bisexual flag and pansexual flag taped to the inside of my cubicle, I make jokes about how gay I am all the time. I just I flaunt it, I walk around, and I'm just like, I'm the gayest gay whoever gayed. And because I know there are people at work who are uncomfortable with that. And initially they really, really were. And they're less so now. So, I've realized that like, oh, if I'm open, if I'm out there, if I'm not afraid to cross a line, and just being myself, then I'm, I'm doing at least a little bit of good. So that's really my involvement in the community is I'm not afraid to stand up for people. And I'm not afraid to be loud about myself.

I like that, that's really good. And that kind of brings me to my next set of questions, which is sort of, you know, the beginning of your journey and how it was taken by people around you, because you seem like a very open person in regards to it. So next, I just want you to tell me a little bit about your parents, you know, sort of what they do for a living were you guys really close together that type of thing.

So, my dad passed away when I was seven. He committed suicide. It was a very tragic sort of event. I talked about it all the time. So, I'm not concerned with discussing it right here. And that was kind of a big deal. His side of the family has always been really, really conservative, in a political sense. Not necessarily in a religious sense. I never recall them like doing churchy things very much. And then when I was in like the fourth grade, we moved and started living with the man who would become my stepfather. And I've known him for a very, very long time now. And yeah, so I'm really, really close to my mom. I'm actually, fairly close to my stepdad, we had a lot in common, and he like really encouraged me to like, be my own person. And my mom's always encouraged me to be my own person, she's really pushed for that. And yeah, my mom's a nurse, she does something. What's the thing, it doesn't matter what she does, she's a nurse. And then my stepdad is a mechanic for New York State Department of Transportation. And we're pretty close, I actually just went shopping a couple weekends ago with my mom. I'm bad at reaching out and talking to people. So, I don't really talk to my stepdad that much anymore, because he's also bad at reaching out and talking to people. So, the only time I ever messaged him is if I need some help with my car. But my mom like texts all the time, she's always trying to get the family together. And when she does that, I always try to like, come in and be like, yeah, I'll come over come over for a little bit all like, I'll bake cookies or something, we'll hang out, it'll be a good time. So, you know, we see each other when we can, but we all know we have a really busy life.

Yeah. So, I actually come from a psychology background. That's my undergraduate degree. So, what you're kind of talking about sort of made me think of a question that I wanted to ask. So, you are very, you know, open very, you know, good at standing up at people because you have this close relationship to your family. Do you think in the sort of nature versus nurture debate, if you hadn't have had like, such a close relationship with your family regardless of how conservative they were, do you think you would still be as open with your sexuality? Or do you think that's more of just a you personally thing, and it doesn't matter about your background?

I think the background does matter a little bit, I think how you're raised matters, because one of the big things with how I was raised, I mean, and by that, I mean, particularly by my mom, because she was a single mother for some time, is, um, she, she's very outspoken, like, she's not afraid to tell you how it is and to just kind of go forward with things. And she's, she very much tries to push, like an anti-shame, sort of thing. Like, I witnessed a lot of it in her life, she never really feels shame, like about the body and because like we all do, that's just how it is. But she, she very much tries to just be like, whatever, I'm awesome, I'm amazing. I'm going to make myself great, and you're going to make yourself great, no matter what it is you choose to do. And that sort of thing, I think really does help. Because a lot of times like you hear other stories, and it's, it's people being like, I was afraid to talk to my parents, and I didn't have good relationship with them. And like, I think even if I didn't have a good relationship with my mom, the fact that she's very much like, I'm going to go out there. I'm going to say what I'm going to say, and I don't care what anybody thinks. I think that sort of thing is a learned behavior too. And you're like, Oh, well, that's just how it is. You go out you say what you need to say and then to hell with everybody else.

Do you have any siblings at all?

I have one brother and two stepsisters. My brother is like five years younger than I am and then these two sisters one's one year younger than him and then youngest is one year younger than her sister. So, there's a little bit of a gap between us.

Okay, so since there is this gap when you were first, you know, coming to terms with your sexuality and learning about it. Were there you know, any close friends that you could talk to about it while you were learning? Or was it something that you and your siblings could discuss?

So, this is a really funny story, actually. We, and this is something we joke about a lot. I thought for the longest time that I was straight. I was 100% certain that I was straight for like, ever. But man, like, I wanted, I wanted that gay best friend. Like that's the archetype that I wanted. And like, I think I had projected onto my brother, that, that he was gay. And I kept being like, man, like, I'm pretty sure and I would have conversations with my mom, and we have all these conversations. I'm pretty sure. My brother's gay. I'm pretty sure. I'm till my mom pulled me aside one day I went, did you ever think it might be you? I was like, No, of course not. I would never I like guys, mom. It's just not how this works. So, I didn't actually I didn't figure any of this out until college. I had no idea I had, I hadn't the faintest inkling that that might have been a thing until college, when I met the woman who would become my wife. And, and it was kind of at that point that I that I met her, and I was like, Oh, no. Maybe my mother was right. And you know that that's where the whole exploring thing like started to happen?

Yeah, that's actually really wild. And I was not expecting that at all. Um, I guess I need to reword some of my questions, then, because I was going to ask a little bit about, you know, the beginning of your journey with your sexuality, like when you realized it, but I guess if you didn't realize it till college that kind of makes High School not really relevant anymore. But I mean, if you were, you know, convinced you were straight in high school, what sort of LGBT resources did your school have for potentially other children who may have been LGBT?

So, we didn't have a lot. But the school was actually pretty cool about that sort of thing. We a lesbian couple, when I was in high school, and everybody knew who they were, and they were out, and they were super happy with each other. I think they're still together. I ran into them at the Renaissance Fair, a couple years ago. I was like, Oh, good for you. And there was a prom. Oh, so they prom happened. And prior to prom, the principal had made announcement over the loudspeaker to remind us or maybe not prom but some other school dance, he had made an announcement over the loudspeaker to remind us that couples get a discount on their tickets, but that a couple consisted of a boy and a girl. And he didn't mean it that way. But there was a riot, like, everyone in my class in the class under me was like, No, you don't get to say things like that, how there was everybody just patient absolute fit. And he issued an apology, like, by the end of the day, it was like I didn't mean and like, of course, the two of them can go like they're definitely a couple I’m 100% recognizing that and they have to go and everybody had a good time. And that that was my kind of exposure to school was like, Okay, this is a thing, and it's an okay thing. But no one had ever talked about bisexuality. And I was really close with a lot of female friends, but we're talking about high school and like, I just thought, that's how girl friends were, like, we weren't afraid to like, hug and like, be really close all the time. And like, that's sort of like, you know, shoulder to shoulder, whatever and like, to talk about things like imagining, living together, that sort of thing that you don't, you know, think about that. It's like, Oh, that's just how girlfriends are. I spent tons of time with my girlfriends, we did all sorts of like, like silly things together that I do now with my wife that are just like this nice sort of closeness that I didn't have with my guy friends. But I also like, I had never had a crush on a girl in the same way that I had a crush on the guy and not at least not in, in school. Where I was just like, you know, fantasizing about the idea of like, marriage or whatever, and that sort of thing. So, yeah, it just never the thought never occurred to me because I had never, I pick up a lot of what I understood about how the world works from television. Because when your parent is a single mother and she needs to put her ADHD children in a situation where she can do something like cook the dinner, she'll plop them down in front of the TV and we will be on it until she's done with whatever she needs to do. So, I learned a lot from television and from like, Oh, this is how high school works. And these are bullies. And this is this. And so like, you didn't see any of it in the media when I was growing up. So I was like, okay, so I didn't realize that some of the feelings I might have had from my high school friends, were more than friendships, until much, much later, where I kind of you have a backwards epiphany where you're like, Oh, no, I think I had a crush on my best friend. Like, I think, I think that's what that was. But, yeah,

I guess my next one's kind of a big question. Because, that made me think about what do you think that sort of says about our society, when you know, you can have these close relationships with your girlfriends, and not realize you have a crush on them at all, because everything you do with your girlfriends is considered normal. But if it comes to guy friends, you're more, you know, conscious of your feelings towards them, I suppose, is that you know, sort of a societal thing, or a kid thing?

I think it's definitely a societal thing, I think. I think that what's more likely to happen is if you didn't have all these taboos about girls and boys spending time together, and like how close they can be with one another, and all if you if you took all those taboos, and you threw them out the window, in the same way that we definitely don't have them with girls with other girls. I think that you'd see a lot more of what I was experiencing with my girlfriends where you don't, you wouldn't recognize that it was a crush. This wouldn't be a yearning, this wouldn't be something weird, it would just be something you did. You’d have kids and teenagers and stuff, just, you know, cuddling up having a nice time, like not even like a sexual way, just innocent of like, I like being close to you. And I don't have to be afraid of that or have any consequences for that. And I think that guys have it really hard. Because not only are there taboos with them with women in a platonic sense, like being that close. But I think there's issues too, with men and men being platonic, in essence, so they get the short end of both straws, where they're just not allowed to have any of that where women are like, Oh, that's just how that's just how girls are. That's just what they do.

Um, do you think that there might be an overabundance of women who identify as bisexual because they don't really know how to tell the difference between thinking, Oh, that girl's pretty and oh, I actually have a crush on this girl?

Um, well, I think there would be if, like, people were more comfortable with identifying the bisexual label, because I think there are some women who, who could identify as bisexual don't, because it doesn't like they're, they're not comfortable with the label, because there's issues with leaning too far into the lesbian pool and that sort of thing. But, um, but I think that there might be a lot of women who identify as bisexual but are more interested in sexual activities or other things with men. And that's totally okay. I think that a label is a label, I don't think it hurts anybody, at least not in this sense. So, I think that there might be a lot of bisexual women who are more comfortable being sexual with men, but who are still comfortable being platonically comfortable with women

I like that, that makes a lot of sense. So now we're going to get into the really the meat and bones of this interview, which is looking into your personal sort of experience with either being erased or accepted within the LGBT community for being one of those three, you know, forgotten sexualities of bisexual, pansexual and asexual. So the first thing I wanted to ask was, um, can you maybe tell me a story about a time that a member of the LGBT community knew you met you and then were just immediately welcoming sort of how they treated you that kind of thing?

do you have a preference of like pre or post understanding that I was,

preferably after you were at least figuring it out that maybe you're gay just because they you know, met you realized, Oh, she's, you know, bi or she's pan and sort of how they took that.

I met this really wonderful trans woman in college. She was absolutely fantastic. She was a couple years younger than me. And she was very, very involved in the community. And at the time, I was still you know, kind of anxious about this it was still very, very new to me. So, I kind of came out to her with, again, the woman who will become my wife, and she was just like, absolutely thrilled. She was like, you know, I kind of gave her a little bit of a background that I was still new to this sort of thing. And she was very, very bold. She's just like I am trans. And this is my life. And I just, she was very out there. And that was, I guess what kind of inspired me a little bit as I move forward with this whole thing. It was just so nice. And she was like, we have resources. I'm part of like this thing on campus. So, if you ever want to show up and talk about stuff, like, we're here for ya, you know, that sort of it was, it was really nice. And a lot of my, a lot of my people, friends that I was roommates and stuff with, we're definitely somewhere on the LGBT spectrum. But they're all like, kind of quiet about it. They're always just like, yeah, you know, it's, it's a thing, and then they'd like, move on with it. They didn't treat it as something so defining but to me, it was a much bigger deal, because it was so different than what I had originally thought. so, to meet, to meet this woman, and to have her be like, yeah, no, open arms come and join us ask questions, you know, do whatever. And it was great. It felt really good.

Awesome. Yeah. I love to hear stories like that. Um, at the same time, can you tell me sort of a similar story about a person who was not in the LGBT community that may have accepted you, and sort of maybe the steps that went into that, because I know a lot of cisgender straight people who don't have any experience in the community might need education, or, you know, they may be struggling to learn type of deal.

Um, so I could talk about work, but I kind of want to start with I came home one summer from college. And my parents knew that I was dating a woman and they were fine with it. My mom's like, I saw this coming a mile away. And I was okay. And I wanted to show Mass Effect to my stepdad because he's really into video games, and I thought that he would enjoy it. So, we sat down in the TV room, and I was playing Mass Effect. And I was hanging out with like, one of the female companions Talley and one of the male companions Garris, mind you they're both aliens, but that doesn't matter... And I said to him, that I was like, you know, I, I really liked Talley, I think she's very pretty but I might also like, you know, Garris, like, I don't know, I think they're both very attractive. And, and he, he does this little pause, and he goes, well, that just means you're bisexual. And there's nothing wrong with that. And that was the end of the conversation. And he just started asking me about, you know, as we're playing, and he's like, what's that thing? What, what's going on here? And like, in the typical video game way, and that was that was it. That was the end the conversation, I was like, Okay, this is good. And then like, even at work and stuff, like I'm so open about it, and everyone's like, Oh, that's so great. And then like, they just, you know, they just treat it like it's normal. And I think that's the most you can really ask for, from someone who's not LGBT is for them to just be like, Okay, great. This is just a thing that happens. Did you get those reports done? And you're just like, Yeah, I did as a matter of fact.

Okay, um, do you think you, within the LGBT community, do you think you experience more acceptance? Or are people a little bit more wary when it comes to, you know, accepting the fact that you're at some I put it: “just Bi”.

so, I've never had the sort of unfortunate thing that I've seen with other people where you get like blacklisted for being bisexual. Most of my experience has been really, really positive within the community. Because everyone's like, yeah, you know, we can waste a bunch of time, like trying to get each other, or we can just be the only support group that we have. And so like, everybody tends to lean on, let's just be on the only support group that we have. So, I've never had an issue personally, where people are like, Oh, you're bisexual. And it's just like, like, I've only kind of watched the drama in the background. I've seen, I have witnessed conversations between other people where you have lesbians who are like, side eyeing bisexual women because of this, that or the other reason or, like people who aren't bisexual or pansexual fighting over what those terms mean, and me being like, dude, not that it's any of my business. But last I checked in the profiles of the people arguing, neither of you seem to identify this way. So, I don't understand where this argument is coming from. But okay, so I tend to I tend to stay out of it. Especially online where like, everything gets so chaotic and like just you know in person I've never, I've never witnessed any of it.

In any of these arguments on the terms, or whatever, that you’ve seen online, are there any jokes or sort of slurs I guess that I've stood out in regards to bisexual and pansexual people? And I have some examples if you don't can't think of any but…

Not really. I know the stereotype of the…that there's that stereotype a little bit that I used to see more often than I do now of like, bi an pansexual people being greedy, that sense of like, Oh, well, you can just have your cake and eat it too sort of thing and like, like that went from that being a stereotype to pansexual people in particular embracing that and being like, Yes, I will eat the entire cake. What are you going to do about it? Um, which I really latched on to like, heck, yes, I will have my cake and eat it too, to almost a panic moment because I'm also polyamorous. So I am, in fact, the greedy pansexual your parents warn you about. You know, I've got two partners. I love them both very much. And I feel…I always feel bad when you fit the stereotype, right? Because you're just like, Oh, no, there it is. I'm the strawman example everyone's going to use to like vilify other pan people. And it's just like nobody wants this.

Do you think these sorts of conclusions about bi and pan people are they stereotypes come more from within the community or with like, from without the community?

I think they come from within the community because I typically have to explain these terms outside of the community to cisgender straight people who are living their own lives and trying to be apolitical. Like, they don't know what any of this means. This is all new information to them. Um, so like, I don't think they're perpetuating these stereotypes. I think it's people within the community who are frustrated about something. It's the lesbian who lost her bisexual girlfriend to a man. It's the gay guy who like is his into this guy that says he likes dudes, and but it's not working out. It's all of these individual people having bad experiences, and taking it out on others, because they don't know what else to do about it.

Okay, um, do you think that sort of gender identity has something to do with how people are viewed within those, like, within their sexuality? So for example, would a cisgender woman who is bisexual be seen as more open to a threesome, or just, you know, fun and flirty versus a trans woman who might… people might put emphasis on being confused, as opposed to, you know, be accepted.

I think that one's gender identity really does affect at least their experiences with different labels. I knew another trans woman in college. I knew her before she transitioned. And then I was there for her while she transitioned, we were really close friends. And she started prior to transition identifying as bisexual, and moved through transition, still identifying as bisexual, and then shifted after she completely transitioned to being like, I don't actually like, I actually like men like not in that way. And so, she shifted into like, I'm a full lesbian. And that's that that journey was really hard for her. Because I think she was so scared in coming out as a lesbian after she transitioned, because I think she was afraid that there would be not trans friendly lesbians who would come out and try to attack her and try to tell her that she didn't belong. And I think that a lot of trans people have to go through that sort of thing, which I'm lucky I don't have to do I don't have to prove anything. And so, I think you get a lot of label shifting. I think there are plenty of trans men and trans women who identify as bisexual because they don't feel like they would be accepted under a different label.

Okay, so do you think that some people might use the bi or pansexual label sort of as a stepping stone if they're not either, you know, completely sure of themselves, or you know, if they aren't completely comfortable saying I am a lesbian and being bisexual or pansexual female leaning is easier to kind of throw out there than saying I'm a lesbian.

I think, um, I think bisexuality in particular, I think this happens less with the label for pansexuality. I think, as people start to take on that label, they're more sure of the direction they're going in. But I think bisexuality has interesting niche of being a steppingstone of being a place where you might not be comfortable with one label, or one way of identifying, but this is a safe middle ground. This is a way of saying; I feel like I belong here. But I don't know where here is quite yet. And it's an it's a nice sort of gateway into finding where you need to go because if you identify as bisexual, there's room for experimentation. You can, if you're really a lesbian, but you're identifying as bisexual, you can date men, and you can have sex with men without feeling like you're betraying any sense of self. Whereas if you feel like if you adopt that full hard stop label of lesbian, that suddenly now it's like, oh, well, like I dated a man like one time and I really no, you don't have to ask those questions. If you label yourself a bisexual, but you really know, I'm somewhere in the middle of this whole mess, I can do whatever I want to. And I think that's a good place for people to figure themselves out. It's a great label to jump into and be like, I'm figuring myself out. And I remember, okay, and you get to enjoy some nice pride flags and kind of, like, reach out in the community and figure out like, like, you know, who's safe to talk to who's not safe to talk to. And I think there's also a benefit to using bisexuality as a stepping stone, because it kind of lets you know, because of all the issues of like, the people really hardcore on the different spots, right, like, if they believe gold star lesbians and like, gay men who do whatever gay men do, I'm not really well versed in that. Um, but you know, you can, you can claim yourself a bisexual, even put yourself out there and you can learn who you don't want to associate with, because of the negativity they put on you. Because you know, who's not your friend, if they're calling you out, when you're claiming to be one thing, even if you're not, like, you know, who's your friend, and you know, who's not. And I think that's really, really helpful. Because you're still kind of in a safe bubble, and you're figuring things out, you don't have to get pulled into tiny, hateful groups, and in the middle of a place you thought would be accepting.

I like that answer. Um, I'm really bad thinking of questions like, I know what I want to ask. And then the second it comes up, I'm like…. okay. Do you think just from your experience, I know you really haven't had any bad experiences within the community. But I guess thinking hypothetically, would you think that somebody who uses the bisexual label as a steppingstone to figure out that they're straight, does that sort of put a strain on the community? Or is that something that most people would be like Hey, I'm glad you figured yourself out.

Honestly. So bi curious was a terminology that I heard long before, like bisexuality, and as a straight person, the term “bicurious” was interesting to me, because the idea that you could experiment was positive and enlightening, even though most people saw it as a very negative trait. I think, like one of the big ones is like Scott Pilgrim vs. the World. And they make that bicurious/bifurious joke. And I don't think the way that was handled was handled particularly well. But it did kind of opened my mind to that sort of sense and ability. So, I think if you if you go into the bisexual label, and you come out the other end being like, yep, I'm straight. The fact that you took that journey at all, to try and learn something about yourself says a lot of positive things. And I think that the fact that you were willing to put yourself in a situation that might have been uncomfortable, and come out the other end, realizing you're straight. Like that's a very brave thing to do. Because it's the same it's, you could say something similar about like, people who, who explore the possibility of not being cisgender and coming out the other end, still believing they're cisgender. It's like you took the opportunity to put yourself in a different frame of mind and to see things from a different potential perspective. So even though the end result is the same that you went in with it's not the same because the experience you went through it completely different, and says a lot more about you as a person than any label, really.

Okay, so jumping back a little bit back into your personal journey, um, what kind of education did you find yourself doing when you were starting to figure this out? Was it just sort of a sudden real realization of Yes, this is me now, or was there sort of a process,

there's a process, um, I saw, I was still really, really not convinced that I was like, 100% gay. like, I didn't think I was like a lesbian. I didn't, I didn't want to go that far. Because I definitely knew I had had attraction to men, to people who identified as men, to people who were definitely cis men. And like, it was very weird. And I didn't understand what was going on. And there's a lot of crying. Because, like, you stopped understanding who you are. And like, that's, that's like, a really big, that's really big thing. And you're just like what do I do? How do I handle this? And I was like, kind of mad at myself. Because, like, I knew my mom will be fine with it, especially because like, she had called me out well before I knew, because she called me out in high school, and I didn’t figure it out until college, so. But like, I had extended family members who didn't tend to view things the same way that I had, you know, considered myself kind of close with. And, like, I just, you know, I just wasn't sure what I was doing... I didn't look for resources so much as I went, Okay, if this is true, what am I getting myself into? And so, I spent a lot more time talking to my roommates in college and being like, so like, what are your experiences of being LGBT? And I would, you know, find, I talked a lot to the woman who would become my wife, and I asked her about her stuff, because she'd been, she figured herself out much, much earlier. And I watched, like, whatever I could consume on the internet on like YouTube and stuff from people talking about their situations, because that's what I tend to do is I'm like, okay, I want to hear other people talk about it. And I joined Tumblr for the very first time and got embroiled in all of that business. And that was a really good experience. Because not only did you get all the like, oh, like, Look, you have this nice little community. And it's positively awesome, but also all the drama that comes along with it, you get the good and the bad and get it like whiplash. And so, it was, it was a lot of information all at once. And it and I came to the conclusion fairly quickly that I was okay with it. But I still had a lot to kind of figure out. And at the time, I had uh, I had adopted the bisexual label. And then, as I was on Tumblr, more I learned about the pansexual label. And I was like, oh, I like this. I like the way that the sounds, I like the way that this feels, and it made me really consider, like when I had crushes on people, when I had feelings, like, what did I really feel like what’d that really mean,? And that's when I kind of came to that conclusion of like, oh, like, their genders never really mattered, their presentation has never really mattered. It's just occasionally you see someone, and you talk to them long enough, and you're just like, I could spend the rest of my life with you. And I'd be totally chill with that. And like, that was it. That was the whole, like, long short of it. And I was like, cool. Now, and I know this is kind of getting off track a little bit, but I went home one summer, and I was…my, my stepdad has a sister and she's a lesbian. She's been out as a lesbian since like, 70s when it was dangerous to be out as a lesbian. And so, she's dealt with a lot. And that's been very interesting. And she recently got married to her wife who identifies as bisexual. And that was really interesting. But I came home, and I tried to explain to my mother that I was bisexual, and she didn't get it. And she was just like, I could understand one or one or the other, but like both that doesn't make any sense. And like that, that really hurt. And I guess she had end up having conversation with…no, I was there too. We had a conversation with my aunt. And she's like, I don't get it either. Because it's the one or the other. And they were both you know on polar opposite sides. My mom's straight and my aunt’s a lesbian and it felt so awful to be in a situation were like, neither side understood what was going on. And I was like, oh… later they had a conversation with my aunt's wife. And she explained things. And then my mom does what my mom always does what she doesn't understand, which is consume as much media as possible with this in it, which usually involves like all sorts of reality shows, which bless her for trying, but she does not always consume the best media for this sort of thing. The whole polyamory thing, she was just like, I watched Sister Wives and swingers, and now I understand and I'm like, you don't, but you tried. But like, so you know, and they both came back to me later. And they apologized. They're like, we think we understand now. And like we were, we're not trying to make you feel like, this is something you can't do. We just didn't understand. And I was like, okay, but like that was part of me figuring stuff out because I had… they knew I was I was with a woman, but I hadn't come out as bisexual when I did. That was the response. And like, it wasn't great.

I guess that comment about your mom makes me wonder if you think that representation in media is kind of harmful or helpful for bisexual and pansexual people. Because, like, Sister Wives and Swingers kind of affect people’s view on polyamory. I feel like there are other examples like maybe, perhaps, a bisexual girl gets into a lot of threesomes. Would that affect how people view that sort of label, or?

So, while representation is definitely important in Media, like, acknowledgement that something exists is hugely vital. Incorrect representation in media is something that we really have to watch out for, we have to be careful what we…we can’t say “we’ve included a bisexual character” and they only have one, and we have them fit every single stereotype, like negative stereotype of a bisexual woman. Like you can’t have them fit every stereotype. But they should exist. I will also state, from my experience with polyamory and Sister Wives and Swingers, that, even to some extent, negative representation is still positive and the reason I say this is that: while that wasn’t an accurate representation of how my relationships worked, it did help my mom kind of understand the concept. And in Sister Wives in particular, while the whole thing is painted as being kind off “odd” and a little bit like, unnatural, the relationship between the wives of being a positive community raising children together, even though they aren’t in a relationship with each other, they’re in a relationship with the man who’s literally never there. I think that sort of centralized positivity was a very good thing. It was kind of showing that these relationships can work, they can be good, and they can be good for each other because they each have a support group of each other. It can be good for the kids because the kids always have someone they can go to, there are a lot of positives that come out of it, even if the whole thing is still being framed as something “weird” and “bad”. So, to some extent, even negative representation can be positive, but we should really air on the edge of more positive representation. I think, Brooklynn 99, oh my god I forgot her name…

Rosa

Yeah. As a bisexual, I think that was a huge deal, because it came out of nowhere, it wasn’t important to the main plotline, but like, that was a good thing. She was just a person, this was another character trait that she had, and so every time she showed up with a different partner, she already been established as someone who’s afraid of commitment, and that’s a personal issue. And she has it with both sides of things. It has nothing to do with the fact that’ she’s bisexual, and everything to do with the fact that’s just how she is as a person. So, when they framed it like that first, before having her come out, it reframes and recontextualizes that character trait. Now if they had done the bisexuality first and the bad at commitment second, then you might start asking questions. Being like… “well” …but they didn’t. And the way they did it felt very tactful and they just kind of, like, this is a thing, and we’re going to take this plot and move it forward really really quick, and she gets to make gay jokes all the time. Which will make our gay viewers happy. And by golly did it.

Okay well, I’m coming to my last few questions, so, I guess sort of like the “sum up” question that I have for this is: since you did have an overwhelmingly positive experience, do you think that bi and pansexual people are more marginalized than, perhaps, the other, “main” sexualities like Lesbian, Gay, Transgender, Intersex, that kind of thing?

I do. And, I do. Because I think a lot of people are very similar to my mother or to my aunt. Where they’re so concerned with putting people into these very exact boxes of understanding that the idea that there’s another box that leaks into the other boxes. That it’s less of a box and more of a hose. I think that’s something that isn’t fully grasped. And I think that a lot of bisexual people could share that at least one moment of I could understand one or the other, but not both. And I think that there’s a unique struggle, too, personally, with bisexual women and you fall in love with a man and you see it in media all the time, like, famous people, famous bisexual people who fall into happy straight relationships. And everybody calling them out and acting like they’re not bi anymore. And that’s something, I feel like a lot of people are so scared, too, I feel like bisexual people out there are probably terrified of relationships because they’re afraid they’re going to be misidentified one way or the other. You can’t come out and be like “well I’m bisexual” because everybody is still going to try and put you int hat box because they don’t see you as an individual anymore, they see you as a part of that relationship. And, I think that’s a big part of the problem. Is we’re so obsessed with these two boxes. You can be one or the other, but you can’t be both. And that’s hard. Even with representation in media, you know, there’s a big push form a lot of people about kids’ media to include LGBT characters. And it’s really easy to include like, a lesbian in your cartoon. Because it’s like “look! It’s a girl who likes girls!” and it’s really easy to include a gay person in your cartoon because “look! It’s a guy character who likes guys!” but it’s so much harder to drop in a character who you’re going to get a singular love interest to, and make that character bisexual, and have people take it seriously. Because you could be serious about it, it could be 100% true for you as the content maker. But the audience isn’t going to view it that way. Because everybody wants those tight little boxes. And I think that’s what’s hard.

OK. Do you think it’s more of a matter of education for people over time? Or is it just something that everybody’s going to have to, you know, the old people are going to die and our generation who might considerably be more open, takes over type of deal?

I think that the argument for “old people are going to die” is very reductionist, because there are plenty of young people who are just as close minded. So, it has to come down to education and to educating each other and to acceptance. Um. We have to be willing to correct people when they’re wrong, not in a mean way, but we have to be willing to correct people when they’re wrong. We have to be willing to explain and, this is a frustration I have all of the time, of people who are LGBT will refuse to answer questions because they’re not a “resource” you should be researching all these other resources. It’s like, you are a resource though. You’re living it. And the fact that you’re not willing to answer a question, I know it’s not your job, I know it’s frustrating, but you…somebody is coming to you and they’re looking for an answer. Even if they’re trolling and even if they’re being disingenuine, like, what does it hurt you to talk about your experience? To share that with somebody. Because, especially on really open platforms like the Internet. Because what are you losing from the situation? From spreading information. You’re not. Because even if they’re not going to take you seriously, again, especially in a very public place like the internet, somebody else might see it and you might spark some sort of epiphany. Like, I had. Like, you might b helping people really understand who really need it, who are afraid to research, or who can’t, or who are afraid to ask questions, or who don’t know where to go and they don’t trust everything they’re going to see. Because anybody could’ve written it. But they know you. At least tangentially. They know that you’re what you say you are, so they’re asking because you’re a direct, trusted resource. And that’s the sort of thing we really have to do. WE have to trust that we’re a trusted resource to somebody. And we have to be willing to talk about our experiences because if we show we’re people, we’re just friendly people being people. And we work to educate others. People become more comfortable. I watched it happen in my office. I’ve worked at my job for 5 years, and not once have I ever shut up about how positively bisexual I am. Um, and I watched this coworker that sits right across from me go from everything I say makes him uncomfortable to him being like, “oh hey how is your wife doing? How’s your partner?” making classy gay jokes that give me a good chuckle. Stuff that’s not hurtful but it’s like “Hah that was a good one man.” That sort of thing. His dynamic with me has completely shifted because I wasn’t afraid to answer questions. I wasn’t afraid to correct him when he was outright wrong about certain things. Like, even if it was coming out of a place of ignorance, even if what he was saying was, like, cruel occasionally because that’s all he knew, it’s all he’d heard, it’s his only frame of reference. So, give them a different one. Answer the questions with a smile on your face, even if when you go home, you’re screaming about how absolutely idiotic some of these people are. You have to put yourself out there and give them a chance. Because it’s the only way we’re going to grow.

I like that. Yeah. That was a really really good question. Um. It sort of not totally connected all the way, but I am just kind of curious on your view, because you did spend time on Tumblr and stuff. DO you think that, perhaps, the other lesser known sexualities, like, for example, sapiosexual or something like that, are more or less marginalized than pansexual and bisexual just because they’re less mainstream? Or do you think people would be more willing to accept them because they don’t know about it?

So, I think that the further you go the more marginalized you get. And I say this because, like, there’s levels of acceptance. Right? It all comes from a sense of understanding and in some cases, it comes from a sense of hurt. And there’s, I think there’s reluctance even within the community to accept these smaller and smaller labels because people have been so hurt. They…the L’s and the G’s have fought really hard to get even to where they are, to the point where they don’t have to like, hide in fear of being outright murdered for just being themselves. And I think that they’re afraid that if they let in all of these other labels, if they let in all of this additional acceptance, that that’s going to give more power to the people that were hurting them before, and say “oh, all of this was fake to begin with”. And I think that’s what people are afraid of. They’re so scared that they’re no longer going to be seen as valid, that they end up invalidating others, because they don’t want to get hurt again. And that’s a hard place to come from. But, like, it doesn’t do anyone any good. Like, we…if we’re going to preach acceptance, we better be preaching it all the way down the line. And like, honest to goodness, if your label doesn’t hurt anybody just use it. Like, let people use it! How one identifies, this happens a lot with the asexual spectrum because there’s like a million different labels involved in there, and I keep looking at it like, I kind of like some of these, but I’m scared to grab one, because I think people will yell at me. Um, but there’s so many different labels, there’s all these different things you can identify as literally anything, I have found it, I found the box that I fit in. Or you find the box you think you fit in and then find another box later because that’s what happens. But like, people are scared of taking those labels because I’ve watched, I have lots of friends that identify with different levels of the asexual spectrum, and I have watched time and time again as they encountered brick wall after brick wall of people in the LGBT community, people outside the community, people within the Ace community itself, because it’s just one massive “I’m scared of being invalidated”. So yeah, I think the smaller you go, the more niche you get, the more marginalized you become. Because everyone starts to think that you’re fake. Which is apparently a big deal.

Well, um, I want to thank you for answering all my questions. I know some of them came at you pretty rapid fire, and an hour is not that long of time. Um, is there anything you wish that I had asked you, sort of, about your journey?

Not really. I think you covered a lot of really good bases. I think you asked a lot of things, and um, you made me think. And that’s always a good thing.

Ok well thank you again, it has been fantastic talking to you

Oh yeah this was great

Yeah!