Adam Canaday Interview, October 30, 2020

All right, I believe we are recording now. So, today's date is October 30th, 2020. It is 3:30 p.m. On the East Coast. My name is HopeLily Van Duyne. This is the first oral history interview in my project on the experience of African American historical interpreters. Today I am speaking with Adam Canaday and we are interviewing remotely through Their Story. I am in Washington DC and he is in Williamsburg, Virginia.

Um, so we're going to start really simple. When and where were you born?

I was born in March in Williamsburg Virginia in 1988.

Okay, and did you grow up in Williamsburg?

Yes. I'm born and raised right here in Williamsburg.

All right. Tell me about your family, parents, siblings, background there.

Uh, so, all of my family is pretty much from Williamsburg. Both my mom and my dad. So, my mom and my dad both come from what are called first families in Williamsburg, which can date back to right around about the 1670s. Um. I've got a pretty large family. So, I probably live within, I would say, a mile of almost all of my aunts and uncles and cousins. And there's four boys, two girls in my immediate household. And I'm the third of all those.

Awesome. Um, so, when going into the history a little bit more, when you were growing up, obviously in Williamsburg there is a lot of history. What interactions with history did you have as a kid with school, outside of school, just living in Williamsburg, family history? Tell me about some of those interactions you would have had growing up.

Well, for me it started, I would say, probably when I was like four or five. Uh, just, you know, interactions on a day-to-day, you know, at our house first, cause our house is always filled with history. Um. My mom was always going to be like reading something or having you read something. Um. In like a little game just as, as simple as you know, cops and robbers, and that was a history lesson. So, it was all right, hold on, you, you doing who now? Who's [the] Indian? Who's the robber? Why does the Indian got to be the bad guy? So, I mean there was always like the history lesson there. And then, of course, because Williamsburg is only so big, everybody in their family, you know, at some point [it] has either worked in Colonial Williamsburg or has had a family member work there. So, for me, um, it started where I started working at Colonial Williamsburg in 1993, when I was five years old. and that was because I had a speech impediment. It's, my mom was trying to just get me to, to kind of get out of my, my little bubble a little bit more and kind of start like opening up the people. And Colonial Williamsburg was just literally two miles down the road from my house. So that's how it kind of started for me, was just like little stuff, playing hide and go seek outside. But, you know, hide and go seek was no cops and robbers and she's letting us know, like, um, before we portray this the wrong way, let's understand it more.

Yeah. How did that sort of compare that history at home and in Williamsburg, compared to history that you were getting in school.

It was totally different. So right away. I kind of had to learn to shut up and keep my mouth quiet , uh, because it wasn't that I knew more than the teacher, it was that I had a little bit more to stand on, than I think the teacher had to, use the book, but I had you know, personal experiences as a five-year-old six-year-old because our family, you know represents the Chickahominy that are up in Charles City and, you know, my family's, you know, black, Indian, white, and Asian, so it was, we were always around that. So, we didn't just go to a powwow because, you know, people say, "Oh it's powwow month." So, we went to Charles City to see cousins, to see family, you know, outside of a powwow. The powwow was kind of like the last thing like we went to, because it was like, I don't need to go to it for a photo op. So, when we went and we talked to family, you know, we talked to him as family first. It wasn't, "Ooo, see, my cousin's Indian" or anything like that. So, I would say we kind of, for everybody in our house, we kind of had to learn how to just keep our mouth quiet first and then learn when to interject, um, because if you interject at the wrong time, it can be, you know, taken as "Oh my gosh, you're being rude" or "just looking to be opposing to everything that I'm trying to teach you." So that was, that was probably the biggest difference. And then as I got older, um, I started, you know, getting in that, you know, Middle School, uh, to like seventh and eighth grade history. Because the sixth grade wasn't really anything that was going to challenge you, but like 7th and 8th grade history, when you actually started doing more projects, um, and kind of developing your own sense of, like, understanding and awareness. That's probably when I had the biggest, like, I guess awakening that, man like, I was ahead of everybody else when it came to what they knew and how they perceived it.

Yeah, that, makes complete sense growing up in that community. And so, with that your family history obviously is very tied into your understanding of history and your community. So, is it your family or just the area? Do you think one of those is, helps you feel more connected with the past in general or your past specifically, the family or maybe the location?

I think it's a combination of both and why I say that is just because Williamsburg itself, um, whether you're black, white, Indian, new to Williamsburg, not from Williamsburg. It kind of, because we're in that historic triangle, even if you don't want to, like, embody it, essentially it does become a part of you, um, because you've got Jamestown on one side, Yorktown on the other, Colonial Williamsburg on right down the center. And then there's so much military history around you, so like, the idea of patriotism is always, you know, in your face, uh, in your ear. Even if it's just something as simple as, you know, getting the mail, you know, when you open up the mail there is a flyer there. So, I think it's kind of a combination. Um. I think family, um, just kind of drove it home a little bit more, but I would say it's kind of a combination of those things.

Um, so we will start talking about your Interpretation and what you do in Williamsburg. Now, would you consider yourself, like, your classification historical interpreter, a re-enactor, both? Like, what difference do you see there and, versus, like, what you do? Like, how would you describe that?

Yeah, so {Laugh} this is probably going to upset a lot of people when I say this. So, I always say like I'm the probably the furthest thing away from a re-enactor because I always say, you know, I live in, in today. So, I might, you know, work in the past or work representing the past, but I don't want to go back. Um. There's nothing about, you know, the 1770s that makes me go, "Oh, I wish I was born 300 years ago." I enjoy being able to, you know, represent it and make it cool, because a lot of people kind of think that, "Oh my gosh, it's corny," but I like being able to get people to think, "Man, that was actually really, really cool." And then just to see how far the past isn't removed from us because we all sometimes thing like, "Oh my gosh, you know 1950s is old." It's like "Man, that's not old, that's, you know, your mom and dad's birthday." And then you go back, you know, the early nineteen fourteen, is, like, me "and that's Grandma and Granddad." So, I mean, of course for some people today, I mean families are changed. So, Grandma and Granddad are a lot younger. But for me, myself, as far as like title, I guess you could say, you know, historical interpreter would be what I would consider. Um. I wouldn't say historian, um, just because I'm still evolving and to me when you say historian... I always challenge people on that because a lot of people I've met that have called themselves historians, it's like yeah, you're not really a historian. You are comfortable at one portion of history, but as soon as I ask you something outside of it, and not necessarily, you know, to go from 18th century to 19th century, but outside of what you're comfortable with, you shut down and you can't tell me, "Well, okay. Yeah, I'm not familiar with, you know, that," but how to get to it, you know, the answer that I'm looking for. Um, so, I don't really say historian so much for me. I know some people may say it, but I would just say, you know, as a student of history or just, you know, someone who interprets history, so it's historical interpreter.

Yeah, so what is that, sort of, what does that job mean to you as, as a representation of, you know, bringing people into history while also living in the present. Like what does it mean to have that job and have that role?

So, to me, we're the liaison, you're the bridge, and you can either be the reason why that person doesn't come across or you can be the reason why they decide, you know what, I'm going to take this first step and I'm going to walk across that bridge and I'm going to connect, you know, those, those links and time and those, those paths. As far as why it's important to me, I think you'll probably get it from almost everybody you interview that's black because it's not a lot of us that do it. Um. If I'm not mistaken, I think there was a article written, it was, I think it was 2020, but it said it was twenty two or twenty seven percent of Museum staff are of color. So, you know, minority staff and to me that's, that's not good just in the plainest terms. It's not good and why it's not good because, number one, who's going to tell our story? Who's going to challenge people on how they tell the story? Um. Who's going to deem it okay and how the story was told? It doesn't mean that because you're white, you can't tell it. I've heard, you know, people that are white talk about, you know, African American interpretation, and do it better than a lot of black folks have, because the passion was there, and, you know, they wanted to do it. You know, just because somebody's black doesn't mean that they're the right candidate for the job either, but the visual interpretation goes a long way. Um. I'm kind of against uniform because I see people use it as an excuse all the time, because of where we work Colonial Williamsburg they use like, "Oh, oh, well, you know, if I would have had these clothes it would have been easy to do my job." It doesn't matter what I'm wearing when I come out on the street in Colonial Williamsburg, because I'm going to be, be perceived one way regardless. So, whether or not I have a uniform on, whether it's I'm dressed, like I'm at the Governor's Palace, dressed like a Coachman, or just like somebody would have been working at trade shop, the perception is already there by most of the people that come. Um, so, to me, my uniform is the one that's not rubbing off when I take a shower. Um. That's the one that's there all the time. Um. And then, most importantly, because I remember when I was a little kid and I came to Colonial Williamsburg, and I saw black guys and black women that were there, people that look like me, and I thought they were the coolest individuals in the world, because that was, that was like my superhero almost. It sounds super, duper corny, but that was like the superheroes to me. Because they spoke to me and you know as a kid, anybody that's taller than you, when they speak to you, that's like, " Ooo, see this, this dude's, you know, spoke to me." Me and then you know, they were wearing a uniform. Of course, you know, to me it was like, "Oh that's cool." So, they were, like, my Batman and Robin. So, I kind of always look at that, you know, I get the opportunity now to be somebody else's Batman and Robin.

That's awesome. Yeah, and we'll come back to some of the things that you just said there because there's a lot I want to ask from that. But first, we started out you said you started out working there when you were five. So, what, walk me through your journey through working there. You're now a journeyman coach driver, correct?

Uh huh, Yeah.

So, take me through the process of you started when you were five and you've worked there for quite a, quite a while now. Take me through that process. What roles have you had?

So, starting out there really was no, I don't want to say process, but there was really nothing that I really had to exhibit skill-wise other than just, you know, being able to say, you know, the ten lines I had to say. So, could I say the ten lines, you know, look at the people, um, and deliver the tiny bit of emotion that I had. Because, I mean, for the majority of it, it's going to sound really, really pompous, but most kids when they're in that role or in a role generally as a kid, who's really going to judge them and say, "Man, that kid really bombed." So. I just had to come and just, like, be the cute kid who wear the uniform and said that ten lines. And, as it evolved, I would probably go, once I kind of got comfortable, I would say as early as almost, like, seven, like, I started to realize, like I wanted more from it and I could do more, and then I liked the attention. So, that made me want more. So, I'm not gonna be like, "Oh, yeah, those are all I want," to sit back. No, it made me want to get more lines, want to do something that was, like, almost competitive in a way, and say, like, "See I can do with the adults are doing too." So, I would say that probably started when I was about seven, um, starting to actually realize, understand what I was doing. Um. As far as roles. I've probably done, I would say, maybe, maybe five or six different things throughout the foundation. I haven't really moved around as much as most people do. So, I got kind of lucky, because people knew my mom and they just knew she didn't let us get away with acting like jerks. They were always willing to have us around. Um, so I kind of, I never really had to do any training till I was, {cough} Excuse me, till I was almost 18 or 19, and that was when I took the job as a guest service interpreter. But I was a drummer for a little bit. So, I drummed for the foundation for probably, it'll be 13 to 14 years on and off. Um. I did a couple evening programs, uh, and then, like, Christmas stuff. And then they used to have what we called electronic field trips, and those were broadcast to public schools, um, as a way of, like, our Extended Learning. So, I did those, but as far as other jobs, I think I've only done three other jobs, to be honest with you. So, that's within the foundation. So, it hasn't been as much as I like, some other, other folks Greg and be like. Oh, yeah, I was a Cooper here for a little bit. I worked at the Visitor Center. I was a junior interpreter. I did that till I was18. I worked at the Randolph [House] for a weekend, like, just kind of giving people breaks almost. And then I became a guest service interpreter and did that for like seven years before I became a coachman. So, like, that's really only it. Yeah.

So, what can you talk me through what your current role as the journeyman coach, Coachman entails, just sort of what you do every day?

Yeah, so the journeyman Coachman, it's essentially the position we've kind of always had, but the role and the definition around it has changed. Um. So, I got hired in 2013 in November, and I had actually applied for that job three times prior, and this was, like, my last go-round that it because I was getting ready to leave the foundation. I wasn't liking, you know, what I was doing, how it was going. I saw, like, a lot of holes where it was like, "Man, it isn't right." Um. And I knew that if I was a Coachman, it would put me in a position where, kind of the, the ball was in my court. I could dictate, you know, everything I was doing. Um. So that role kind of changed, um, when we got our former director, Paul Bennett, who was a professional coachman in England. He's very tradition-based and it was what I liked and what we needed as a foundation, and as a department. Unfortunately, he's no longer working for us, but he was probably the spark that we all needed to get recharged, because beforehand, Coachman was just a title. It didn't really have, like, any, any skill with. You kind of set up on the box seat and you just held the reins. There was no understanding what it was that you were doing, what you were asking from the horses, um, understanding the vehicles, the tradition that we were, you know, embodying and presenting to the past, or presenting to the people today, in the present. Um, but as far as the role today, it's a little bit of, kind of being a tour guide, except I don't really have to walk, the horses do all that for me. You get people the ambience, because the sound of hooves always puts them back, the fact that, they're that close to horses, you know, that's always a positive for them. And then, of course, the grooming in between. You do everything from, you know, grooming your horse, picking their feet, banging manes, tails, pulling them. Sometimes taking their blood work before the vet. So, we'll get there assessing like lameness, things of that nature. It's almost like owning your dog and doing everything you can before you have to take it to the vet. And that's pretty much like our role.

Awesome. So how, so we're going to go back to sort of what we were talking about with interacting with guests, and sort of what experience, like what you felt. So, how does, your, like, how does your audience influence how you, like, I mean, how does your audience influence, like, your interpretation, your interaction. Like, what, what does that look like, and when you meet someone that you're going to, you know, give a ride now. Yeah, what does that look like?

Yeah. So, because we do we do 10 rides a day right now, you know, you've got 10 different sets of people that are you know going to be riding with you. So pretty much I adapt to almost every group that I get in, [are] with, because they're never going to be the same. And what you said for the last group, you know, the other group, you know, may not want to hear, um, they could care less. Or you might get somebody who's, like, "Okay, but this is what I want to know." They come already with agenda where, "I want to take this ride because I want to learn about 18th century travel," or "I want to take this ride because my feet are tired and I'm tired of walking." So, so I always adjust mine to the people that are in there and I don't do anything fancy as far as, like, how to read them. I just kind of speak to them. Because, just a simple conversation, "Hey, how you doing?" goes a long way, and how those people respond to you within that. "I'm doing alright" or "Oh my gosh. Let me tell you." I mean, you know, what you're going to get, so you don't have to really try to be, you know, a magician and pull out any magic tricks. There are times when you do, but most of the time all I do is, I just talked to them. "Hey, how are you doing?" "Where are you from?" "You ever been here before?" "You let me know what you want to talk about. I'll be happy to do it." And I mean I, I just tell them, "I don't know it, you know, you got a smartphone, we'll look it up [and] figure it out." And I mean, you just go for [it]. I just be real with them. So, I don't do like anything that's fake or aside. I treated how I, I kind of want my tour to be like if I was in their shoes. Because, this is going to sound terrible, but I think tours are boring. [the] When I, when I did tours I hated it because I didn't like the running narrative. Um. I thought it was absolutely miserable, because, number one, it's like we're assuming everybody's going to want to hear the same thing, everybody's in a perfect mood. So, I just thought, like, the idea of tours were, were terrible idea and I still think they're terrible ideas. I think when we say we're giving somebody a tour, I think it needs to be like, "Okay. I'm giving you a tour, but it's not what you think as far as a tour, to me, I'm showing you my backyard. So, because Williamsburg is my backyard, so I'm kind of showing you my house. I'm not doing a tour where it's like, "Oh, yeah. Here's my den, you can't sit here." It's no, I want you to touch it, feel it. Ask questions about it.

Do, do you get a lot of people who booked a carriage ride and they expect you to give that running, like, narrative of, "Oh this on the left. There's this on the right. There's this,

You know, [what's] going to say? [It's] really cocky of me. So, I would probably say most people that ride with me, they kind of know they're not getting the traditional carriage ride and that's what makes them want to ride with me. Um. Because when I took the job, I didn't have the horse skill, um, and I'm not afraid to say it. Like, I sucked. Um, I didn't have the skill that, you know, the other people that have been doing it prior had and I knew I didn't. So, I knew I had to use something else. Um, so, I just use my personality and you know, the fact that I always like to run my mouth and chitchat with people. And so, I would probably say within a year, um, I would get phone calls down to the barn where people were trying to ask, you know, which carriage is Adam on, which carriage is he riding? And it was not because, like, my tours were I'm just giving out amazing, you know, historical facts who's because I think the treatment of how I was, you know, treating the people and the fact that they got a little history on the side, too. But yeah, I've got no problem saying, like man, I sucked when I first started.

I feel that in becoming, starting out on career stuff now, I understand.

Yeah, I mean, yeah, I think, I think people have to be honest. There's nothing wrong with, you know, being terrible at something, because if you're persistent, you're going to get better, and I, I let my persistence kind of drive me. And I let what other people in the barn, you know, drive me. So, it because in every workplace you're going to have people that are going to make comments. And so, it was like, okay, I heard you make this comment. Well, I'm going to prove to you that I'm going to be able to do it, and, and I'm going to do it so good, you're going to have to acknowledge that, man, I just did that way better than you probably did, or you expected. And I'm typically not competitive, but I can be, I can be if the right button is pushed. So, history for me is kind of been like my sport. Because I didn't play, you know, basketball. I only did, like, a year of football and I didn't like being outside in the grass. So, it's like this is, this is my competitive avenue right here.

I like that. I haven't heard that, something put that way before, but I definitely I feel I connect with that. History is important because they're definitely my only activity at the moment.

Yeah, and you know, like there's, there's a lot of people that, I mean, they start taking it serious and it's like, man, you could bring out the boxing gloves on some historians.

Oh, yeah, and in historiography definitely, that, that is a competitive field.

Oh, yeah, I bet.

So, when you're talking with people [or] just whether on a ride or just waiting for someone, um, just interacting with people on the street. Is there anything that you, like, are consciously careful about? Like anything you, you, things you feel like you can't say or do, um, just, just in general or more specifically with certain people?

Yeah, so, um, no matter who it is and what they look like. I'm conscious with how I talk to somebody, uh, because how you speak, uh, to someone even if you know them, you can encourage a guest who doesn't know him to get above their, their britches real fast and say something that's inappropriate or, it's like, "Hold on man. You got to know me before you want to start making a joke like that." So, I don't ever, for instance, if I see any black, and, you know, colleagues of mine, I never go, you know, "What's going on Trouble?", because there's already the notion of "Okay, what are you up to?" So, it's like, um, so if I see, you know, anybody, you know, that's older than me, I never, you know, like, I call him by his first name. I call them by his last name, I put the handle on it and give them that respect. Everybody's always boss or chief to me and say "Hey, what's going on Chief? What's going on Boss?" If it's a woman, it's Queen, and with the young lady it's "How are you doing Princess?" I don't do the whole doll baby, because I know, like, my sister hated when people called her doll baby. Seems, like, "No, call me Queen if you want to call me anything. And other than that, call me my by my name." And I don't remember most people's names, so I just said Queen because it's, hey it's easy, it's not disrespectful, and, like, if it's, like, young kids, especially young men, all those are young kings. It's always, you know, "What's up young King?" Because that means, it means something to them. So, and I watch, I watch how they react. If people want to say, "Oh, it doesn't", but I'll watch how they react to it and I can say that this to a kid at 10:30 and at, like, 3:30, they want to come up and take a picture with me. That's a cool dude right there. So, it means a lot to him and I know how it made me feel when people said that to me. So, I'm never, like, go out to try to say something funny without, you know, gauging my audience first and gauging the person. Because, you know, what you might say on Monday that was funny, that person wakes up Tuesday, they've got, you know, a lot of stuff going on, and they, and something's happened at home before you get to work. It's not going to be, you know, taken the right way. So, I usually do like the simple just "Hey, how you doing?" "What's going on Queen?" "How you doing, King?" "What's happening boss?" Simple greeting first and, like, my buddies, Cody, Warren, and Talon, and Martin, that represent some of our native people, I make it real clear. [Is it] like, everybody that's in the carriage and a ride with me, "Don't let me hear you go {Indian war whoop}. So, because we're going to do a history lesson on why that's not appropriate, because there's enough of an uphill battle already for, you know, somebody like myself, so I don't need to push that rock on them. And there's only four of them that are here. So, they're more important than anybody else to me right now, because they're the people that have never been, never been properly shown in our area. Whether it's Jamestown, Yorktown, Colonial Williamsburg. So, it's, I, I don't play that one when it comes to them and I'll let people know, like, when they make a joke. I can be real cool, but I tell, "Hold on. Let's go back, because I'm sure they got some jokes that they can throw out, too. Are you ready for it?" And most people usually back off when you let them know like "Okay, I got you" And then if you just let them know, like, "Look they're in 2020 just like you and me. So just to say 'Hey, how you doing?' Like, start there, like, let's do that first. Let's not do all this, you know, 'there's a [squab]' because it's not gonna go over well, because I'm going to support them. I'm not going to support you. Like, I'm happy you're supporting the foundation, but my relationship and friendship with them means much more."

Yeah, that, yes. Thank you. Yes, it, does that ever cause, like, I mean, I'm sure it does, but does that ever cause issues? Do you have a time or moment where, you know, you had someone not respond respectfully, um, and had to deal with that?

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean there's at least once a month where you get a reaction like that. But it depends to a lot on politically, what's going on politically, you know. What people are saying on the television is what drives, you know, what they talk about. And then the crowd. So, if there's a, so for instance, and I'm not afraid to say, if there's a old white crowd, you notice that you get more, you know, especially white men, generally. But recently, it's actually been a little flip flop, and more white women wanting to be like super, duper bold. And it's like, "You're bold, but you're still wrong. Like, I'm glad that you're willing to be that confident, but it'd be nice if you would be that, you know, proud to be correct and just use some facts first. Because, just because you're loud doesn't mean you're correct and you're right. It just means I got you've got to a point where you can't win anymore. And so, you're just, 'Oh I'm just going to talk over you and [ ]'. And my rule is, I don't argue with you, because my grandma always had a saying, you know, fools don't argue with, you know, we're not fools but 'they don't argue with fools because people from a distance can't tell who's who', so if not, if you're arguing and you're getting loud, I just let you go for it. It's like, all right. I mean, the higher monkey climb, the more you expose yourself. But yeah, there's at least once, once a month where there's, you know, something that's either said by a colleague, by a guest, and you've got to, you know, politely rein them back and just say "Alright, let's, let's start over". And I don't ever do the, the, the correcting behind closed doors anymore. I used to, but what I realized, what I was doing when I was correcting somebody behind closed doors after they made that comment out in public to me, I was putting their feelings before what they did to me. So, I was still thinking about giving them empathy and sympathy, when they made the comment, they didn't think about my feelings, the perception of how that was going to look towards me, from a crowd. So, I've stopped doing that. I've lost a couple friends since I've done it, but, you know, oh, well, That just means we weren't friends anyway. But I've also gained quite a bit of, you know, trust from other people because they're like, "Hey man, I'm really sorry about that. I didn't realize what I was doing." And I treat him like a person. So yeah, "It's fine. I just wanted to, you know, realize. Hey, I might take it, you know, one way, but somebody else might, you know, take that totally different. And you might not be here tomorrow, just, because we don't know, you know, who we're talking to all the time." So, I'm funny about how I respond, but I'd typically almost always respond. Even if it's just me giving somebody a side eye, because what you don't say can go a long way, too.

Yeah, and you mentioned that you've, like, that happens with colleagues as well as guests, and I don't want you to throw anyone under the bus or anything like that. But how often do you think that some of those issues come from people you work with, outside of just guests.

Oh, you're going to laugh at this, but the majority of them typically come from, you know, the people we work with. Um. Because the people you work with, not only did they already come with, you know, an idea in their mind before they took the job. Now a lot of times they're, they're doing research and they don't research everything. Like people will research, they don't research everything. They researched enough to support their argument. And so, when they feel like they've gotten confident there, that's when they usually decide to come and try to be bold. Which, you know, it's fine with me, um, because the only thing you can do is sharpen my game, um, and just teach me something. But it's, it's almost always usually inside first. Um. However, we have gotten better with it and throughout the foundation because we've had different, the past two presidents for the foundation pretty much, like, said it was going to be a different, a different ball game and they've stuck to their word. And so, like, people making no sly jokes and trying to, I don't want to say it's the way people trying to almost take the character too real sometimes, because you get some people who aren't characters, but they're "Oh I'm going to be such and such today." And so, I, "Hold on, you're not an actor. You're an interpreter just like I am." And they'll use that, because they realize the perception most people are going to think that "Who is this guy? This is a fancy guy dressed up." And typically, when they see me, you know, the idea is not going to be that. So, they try to do the one up, and I'm real quick to go, "No, he's in 2020 just like I am." So, and I'll kill that whole vibe super, duper fast, and it's not because I want to be a jerk, because sometimes you have to. Um, because if you don't, that person who just walked away from that situation, they might go and see one of my colleagues, you know, who black or Indian or a woman, and how they walk up to them is how they left me. So, I'm responsible for how that person leaves me and encounters my next colleague.

Yeah, and something you mentioned earlier, and just now I want to go into that a little bit with the, the costume and the dress. And so, there's, you sort of alluded to it already, but that there's an assumption when someone, when people see you in Williamsburg, just in this setting and in a costume. And can you talk about what the assumption that usually like? What assumption? Is that specifically that they usually get, like, okay, are you, like, an enslaved person or? Because that your role is not, is not racial, but people [assume so]

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Can you talk about that a little bit with me?

You nailed it! Yeah, there there's nothing about my role that has anything to do with race, but it's always oh, you know, this guy, he's an enslaved individual. Now granted, you know, the majority of your drivers were, you know, enslaved. But, my job is to give you a carriage ride. I mean, if we look at our job description, you know, I don't have to know, you know, almost nothing about the history. I just have to be able to give you a ride, executed it safely, be able to point you in the direction of the bathroom, how to get on the bus, and then let you know, like, hey, that's that old building there, that's the palace. Like, the bare minimum is history.

It's almost every person who comes in the either asks you this. "Are you a slave?" or "Who's your master?" is almost all the time, or "Who's your, who's your owner?" is what you get and I mean, I don't get upset when somebody asked that because it's a teachable moment. And most people you know, when they get off the bus, we've got a running audio that usually, you know, tells people to ask, you know, who it is they're talking to, but it doesn't tell them how to ask it. So, it's a, it's a little bit of a trick, because it's an uncomfortable thing for some people to ask a complete stranger. And then we're talking about history which most of us didn't pay attention to in high school or in college. And now we're, you know, trying to have a conversation and not be embarrassed, which I get and so I don't, you know, react to everybody's "Oh, man. What an idiot" or, you know, "Hold on Buddy". But yeah, the, the job, like you said, it's got nothing to do with, you know, you know, race or anything in there. But almost all the time, you know, it's brought back to, you know, race or "Who are you?" "Who would have your master have been?" "Like, man, I could own this thing." So, but I mean, you just, in that case, you just use education to teach them. And not just use, you know, simple conversation. And it's like, "All right. Well, what makes you think that?" and then you just, you allow them to answer the questions themselves, and almost all the time if you do it the right way, and you're not disrespectful to them, and you don't try to make a joke, out of them, typically the people are "Oh, yeah, that does make sense. I didn't think about that. Man, I learned something new." So how you handle the situation that's presented can go a long way.

How do you handle the difference between, you know, your 'it's a teachable moment' and that can be for adults and kids? How do you sort of differentiate how, how, how much history and how much background you give based on, you know, the age, of a person?

You're going to, you're going to laugh at this. Kids are straight to the point. Adults want you to go all around and, you know, give him a big like whirligig, and it's like, "You're not going to remember a half of what I told you, you know, three minutes ago." But kids are just like "Oh, okay, so that's not it," and I mean, they're like "Gotcha." It's a, my rule of thumb is always, if you can't interpret to a four-year-old, then you're going to not be able to interpret to a 44-year-old. Because a four-year-old is going to call you out. Um. They're going to ask you the questions and no adults going to ask, and they're going to ask it with no bias. And if you can't answer that kid, you know, they're going to call you out on it, and they're going to tell you even, "you're boring" or "I'm ready to go." And I've seen it happen, you know, over and over with people in town. And they'll get a group of kids and they start trying to give them the PhD conversation, and they're not here for that. So, they want to understand. "Okay. Why was it like that?" "Okay, I got what you're saying, but tell me why." And your get them "But why? Why?" It's just like that annoying kid on the TV show, "but why, but why?" And they just won't "give me the skinny. I don't need everything else. Give me the skinny. I'll come back and get the fat later." Adults typically usually want a law first, is what I generally see. They want a law or some type of support, to support what you're saying, to counter their assumption. Um. Because it can't just automatically be that they're wrong all the time. Because it's embarrassing to be wrong. So, I mean usually they want, "Okay. Well, if I'm wrong will you get me, get me the fact and give me the facts of why I'm wrong." "It's like hold on, you should have looked up the facts of why you were wrong first." But you know, you'll do that, and then you have to walk around the tree first, before you can climb it with adults. Where with kids, I mean, you can go right to the tree and they get it and they hold on to it, and I've notice that a lot more within, like, the last three years, and I don't know if it's because of social media, if it's access to media and the internet, um, but I've noticed kids are getting right to the skinny. They're not asking questions and, "Oh I want the four-year-old answer." No, they want, they want the answer, how they asked it.

Yeah.

Yeah, so adults always want you to soft-pedal. I mean, that's the truth and that adults almost always want you to soft-pedal. Um. I hate to, like, say it. Almost always adults want you to well, you know, "My child, he's young," and it's like, "Okay, but your kid had no problems asking me that question, you know, 30 seconds ago. So, you're the one trying to put the parental advisory up." It doesn't mean I'm going to go and be explicit, but, you know, I'm going to answer the question.

It's, it's part of that's with kids don't have the pre-existing, like, 20-40 years of life telling them one thing, that stops them from, you know,

Yeah.

actually, being open, actually asking the question. Wanting to know the real answer.

Yep, and a lot of time, you know, they, they go off what's right in front of them. So, it's like, "Okay, I'm asking the person because he's the one that's right here. I'm not asking the lady down the road because she's down the road. I got to get to her. So, when I get to her I asked her but right now I want to ask him." Where, like, as an adult, I mean, I'll notice it now. I'll watch people do it, being still, like, where you'll notice. They've got a question and it can be something about horses sometimes. And I'll get people, if I'm out on the street, or I'm pretty friendly, and most, most people now do it as much, but when I first started, man, how we get people have walked by me and go ask another, like person, you know, questions. And it would be funny when they ask somebody and they get sent back right to me, and he was like, "Oh so you got to come to me anyway." And, and some of that's, you know, just, just culturally, what you're used to. It's almost, like, the cafeteria table, you usually sit by people that look like you. So, I mean, and then I understand that.

Yeah, but you gotta, you have the opportunity to actually be like, "Okay. Nope. It's my turn to, to teach you something."

Yeah. Yep.

Do you find that? It's, so Colonial Williamsburg get, gets international visitors. Do you find that, that, like, where they're from has a significant impact on, like, what the kind of questions they ask you and, like, what they want to know?

Yeah, yeah, where they're from, and then, what they most recently seen. Where they're from has a lot to do with how they ask questions, but almost always it's what they've most recently come across. So, and I think that's just human nature because, it's just that whatever is most recent is what we tend to talk about. And that's, that's usually what you see with the guests that come, is, you know, it's what was most recently, whether it was on the news, what was most recently searching their Google search engine. Um. But it's almost always the most recent thing.

Um, so I want to go a little bit more into, multiple members of your family work for CW. And your mother is an interpreter at Randolph House, correct?

Yes.

I want to know if the two of you, especially now that you're older, you've been doing this for a while. You have so much experience in Colonial Williamsburg. Do the two of you, like, talk about your experiences or your interactions between different guests and, like, sort of compare? Especially in that she has a very different, like, location, and you are a coach driver, but she is working in an actual house setting, in very different interactions with people. Like, do you guys talk about that and compare to sort of see the differences?

Oh, yeah, every day. Yeah, every day. So, I mean, we pretty much go have lunch with each other every day. So, like at one o'clock, you know, it's a "where are you eating?" and I leave to meet her or she meets me and usually like we're talking about, you know, what's happened at work already or what's, like, "All right, this is getting ready to happen". Because you can, you can tell what's getting ready to happen. And I mean, for her experience, I mean, even though we're both, you know, people of color. No, she's a woman and she's an older woman, not like ancient or anything. But an older woman in Colonial Williamsburg is going to have a totally different experience than the younger woman in Colonial Williamsburg. And older black woman going to have a totally different experience that younger, you know, black woman. So, we always talk about, like, how different it is, and then how similar the entry points to those conversations are. Because they almost all start the same way. And they go different routes once they get started, but they almost always start that way.

What way is that?

Oh, man. Yeah, you'll laugh at this, because I'm sure you probably heard it. But, I mean, whenever we start talking about, you know, people of color in the 18th century, the, like, the answer to opposition is always well, you know, "In Africa, you know, they had slaves too, and they got it so much better over here." And it's, like, so that was the weakest argument in a way of trying to, you know, counter what I'm talking about. And then it was pathetic, because it's like, you think you're the first one to ever come here and say that? Like we deal with that on a day-to-day basis probably. I would say at least eight or nine times a day you get that, where people are up "But you know in Africa, you know, Africans sold Africans, too." It's like yeah "And Europeans sold Europeans too," and then then all of a sudden, when you say that, it's typically, "I gotta go to the bathroom" or "Yeah, we were just heading down to the Palace." "You go do that now," but yeah, it almost always starts that exact same way. Or like, for me, where most people won't, you know, make the, the comment about women so much now, it's, you know, you get the Irish slave nonsense all the time. It's like, "Hey, I'm not taking any way anything away from the Irish. But, you know, you kind of got a look at that a little bit deeper before you start, you know, engaging that round." But we get that a lot, um, and I mean, good Lord, within the last month and a half, from September to now, I mean, that's been a day to day occurrence. And then, everyone's most, most vivid thing is about sex trafficking, um, because that's they hear, you know, slave there. So, they just hear the word slave and then they go. "Okay. Yeah, but we still have sex slaves today." They it's like, "Yeah, but you have people trying to go get them out of bondage, so you don't have, you know, illegal force keeping them there that's in bondage." And I'm not saying that it's, it's different or "Oh man. I'd rather be a sex slave than a slave in the 18th century," but there are differences and we've got to, you know, at least acknowledge, that there are, you know, differences and it's a totally different right?

I never would have made those

Yeah.

connections. I'm just, that's, that's shocking that someone makes those connections.

Yeah, that's-- man, that's-- that's all the time thing at me it does change to, because I will say like, I noticed once I started, you know, driving the carriages more, um, how they, how they kind of bring that question about. It has to be me typically being in the wagon where I've got, you know, almost 30 minutes to talk and then, you know, I would do start talking about black people in the stage wagon. I still get my, my, like, regular like conversations, [Slash], like, backyard tour. But I do get to a point where it's like, all right, and now we're going to talk about that other half of Virginia, and I'm going to dedicate, you know, seven, eight minutes to talking about it. Because if I can give you a 20-30-minute ride, I think seven or eight minutes is doable. So, you can bear with me. If I've got to talk about George Washington and Thomas Jefferson, all these other, you know, individuals for 25 minutes or 22 minutes, you can listen to that. So, what you do with it afterwards is up to you, but you can at least give me the respect of listening to it, because I gave you respect talking about those men and doing it with integrity and honor, uh, and not holding any personal grudge against them. But yeah, the African slaves thing. That's man, that's, that happens all the time. Or most recent one which a couple people have asked, and they weren't trying to be jerks about it. Sometimes you do get them with, "Oh, you're trying to be funny." I've actually had a couple people that were like really surprised when they came to Williamsburg and they look for, like, a farm [they're always look for a farm where I hear about, you know, the slaves that were here, but where's the farm? You tell them no farm here. And like my mom does it better than anybody. "Ain't no farm here. The these people when we talk about, you know, the doing and what's getting done. Yeah, that house that was built as [a] silversmith over there, that harness and farrier work. That was all black that was doing that," and then you can see kind of that brain is like, "Okay. Yeah. Well, that story wasn't told to me," and it's like, "Yeah, it's usually not portrayed that way."

So I wanna go a little bit more into your, like, very person, more personal, like, experience in especially how, so you've very well put that, you know, you are in 2020 that is, like, you are living, you are not living in the past. You might work in the past during the, might work in a place that talks about the past, but you are not living in the past. Uh, what kind of that, you know, working in the past every day does that take an emotional, an emotional toll, mental? Like do you have to sort of classify mentally, like, I'm stepping into work and that means this certain thing? Or sort of, just what does that like make you feel when you are taking on that, you know?

And that's a super dope question that you ask, um, because I think a lot of people take it for granted that even though, um, it's a museum in like, yeah, we kind of portray the past. You do have to put on a different face when you're there. But you also have to kind of still wear, I [don't] want to say a corporate face, but a face of professionalism in a different way, because it still is, you know, a company in a foundation. So, what you deal with out on the street, you know, is one thing and then when you come in there to the barn and that's totally different. And so, like for Preston, the other guys doing interviews, I mean, they'll tell you the same thing. Yeah, we're not going to take any of it home with us. So, we've got like, at 5:15 it, work stops, and we're not going to let it stress us to the point where it's like, man I'm gonna cry about it. But you do find yourself, no matter how long you've been doing it. Like I tell people I don't let any of it, you know, bother me to the point where I'm not going to be able to eat and sleep. But I'd be lying to you to tell you that I don't know think about some of it sometimes like when I'm in the car first thing in the morning. Or when I might have just had a real crappy experience with either a boss, supervisor, colleague, guest and I don't let that, you know, going to my mind, I'd be absolutely lying to you if I told I didn't let that happen. So, the balance for me is number one. Finding you know, the little kid in me again, because that's what keeps the excitement there. Um, if I can keep it exciting no matter what somebody else said to me. Like when I was playing basketball, you know, I sucked at it my first couple times maybe "Oh, you're not big enough," not big but I kept going because it's like, okay eventually I will be bigger or I'm going to be better. And so, like for me, with, with Colonial Williamsburg, when there's a roadblock, my determination is, "Okay. How am I now going to get around it? Now? How am I going to throw that road block [in] your face when you told me I couldn't do this, but now I'm going to make it where you're going to want me to do it, and it's going to be the thing that everybody's coming to ask because they want to see it being done." For instance, um, I used to drum on the street with a guy. His name was Gregory James. He's passed away. But I took a super, duper big offense to this when it happened and he never, like, told a lot of people about it, but he wasn't lying about it because I had a similar thing said to me. But he'd just sing on the street all the time, and he had been asked not to sing. And I remember when he passed away, you know, one of the things that people said was "Oh, how we were going to miss the Sweet Sound of his voice." And to me that was like, "you're a liar." I couldn't draw the difference between work and, and what was going on afterwards, because it was like, you're still a person at work. You're still a person after work. The only thing that changed was you punched in, and you were a supervisor. But you can't tell me you were going to miss his voice when you were the one to tell him to stop singing. And when he was singing those songs, he wasn't just singing songs to be singing. He was singing songs to engage people. He would sing gospel songs on the street, because, you are fighting the devil when you're black and you work in Colonial Williamsburg, you fight it all the time. So that was his way of passively resisting. Which is what did Harriet Tubman do? So, it was a way of connecting with the ancestors. And when he sang, what I like, it didn't matter what he's singing or how he sang, he had black, white, old, and young come and gather up around him. And so, his songs did more than what a lot of those programs that could do. It brought people together. And if you get on, like, YouTube, you know, "Slave Sings in Williamsburg." He's one of the first people to come up, but even that title, it's not, 'Greg sings', it's 'slave sings'. It shows the, the presentation of, the perception of, is not a black man singing, a slave singing, but and what he would do with them, use that song to teach, you know, people. Because sometimes he portrayed a free man, sometimes he portrayed a man that was enslaved and a lot of times he would portray more than, two characters within the same day. So, people to know "I just saw you earlier" and he know "you didn't see me", because he was portraying that guy earlier and they would get it afterwards. But first they're, like, "Well, no, I'm pretty sure I saw you," but he used it to be the, be a branch to reach people. And I do the similar thing that I got from him and I picked it up from my mom. I use that as like, that's my way to fight what pisses me off. To be really frank, and I'm sorry if I choose [that, but] that's, that's kind of. I just think you get your better being real than trying to be fake. So, in history is real, it's not fake and too many people have tried to fake it and well, let's tell this story. No, that's not because you're lying. When you tell one part of it and you leave out the other, you're lying, you're being disrespectful. Um. When you coddle one person's feelings. Who's feelings are you disrespecting? And oftentimes, it's the people that look like me who get disrespected on that end. And to be frank, I'm sick and tired of it. Like, I'm tired of every year we have, you know, trainings every about how to talk about black people. And it's like, why do we need to have the conversation? Just talked about them. If you're using the facts, what's to argue? There's nothing to argue about if we're using the facts, and we're showing the humanity. We don't need to have a training about it, because we're not deaf. We're not blind. So, I can hear what you're saying. I can see your facial expression. People can tell when you're being honest. And you're going to have people that are going to, you know, want to fight back, black and white, um, you know, and don't want to hear the story. And that's okay. That's, that's A okay. You need them because they're the ones that are going to show you how important it is that you're telling that story and why it is you're still telling it. The, I'm, I don't want to sound of a different mind, but my mom's raised me so different, and like, we've always been, like, challenged. When she asked you a question, she doesn't give you the answer, she challenges. So, I kind of, without thinking, I do it to other people all the time. And I know it's probably going to be one of the reasons why I never get anywhere, um, because people don't like it, but it's just who I am. That's how I was taught.

And I think that, that if you're not asking those difficult questions, especially when you're talking about history, then you're not going to get the actual, you're not going to find the truth and ---

Yeah. Yeah, but if the doctor doesn't touch your leg where it hurts, how is he gonna know that it's broken? No, that's where the tear is, the it's that's, that's kind of my assessment of it. Like, we can see it swelling. But you know, sometimes you have the swelling is just around, you know, where the bruising is, but that's not where the actual pain is. So, I, I kind of use it like that sometimes.

That, does it, make you sort of take a step and think about the interactions you have with people on a daily basis there. Does it make you have a particular view of the broader world and, like, what, especially our country is dealing with today? You have, you have that raised very much with history

Yeah

as, as a central point. And does that give you a specific, like, perspective that you think is, I don't want to say better, but, you know, give[s] you, gives you a different perspective that you kind of would like to be able to share more broadly? Or just, like, how does it make you think{}the world?

Yeah. Yeah, Yeah. Yeah, I think museums have a responsibility, um, a huge responsibility to tell the story the correct way, and to stop trying to be, um, be a pacifier to history. Uh. We've told the story of George Washington already. Like, we've already talked about George Washington and Thomas Jefferson. We're never going to stop talking about them, but I think it's time that we give somebody else some attention. Um. I think it's time that museums look at how people come to a museum, and why they come to a museum. A lot of times when people come to a museum, it's because they've lost an argument somewhere and they need help to prove that they were right. Um. And then you get other people that come to museums because they have a genuine interest. And then there's that, that question mark group that come just "because my wife wants to go" or "Well, we did Busch Gardens Water Country. Well, let's, let's make the trip valid." And, I take it personal, this is gonna be really, really messed up of me, but I [take] it personal [when] people say, like, they were bored at Colonial Williamsburg, or hey, it wasn't that cool. [Because] that means to me we didn't do our job. Um. And I know I can't talk to every person that comes to Colonial Williamsburg [but man, I try. When I get] them on the carriage, [I] try all the time. Because if we don't do it the right way, it's, it's not so much we're bound to repeat, you know, the history, because we're already repeating a lot of it. We're just doing it on a different day. Um. I think we're bound to be ignorant, um, and allow, um, actions to become more harmful. Because what they were doing in the past? Yeah, it was systemic and it, it was a target based. But today, we know, we know so much more. We have the ability to look, you know, in hindsight and we also have the ability to[too] the same way, they did in the 18th century, but I won't blame them for it. To look further and know what we want and it's our choice, like, There's always you've probably heard it before, but everybody likes to use the Jefferson quote. It's like "having the wolf by the ears" when he's referring, you know, his, his views on slavery. But they never go further into the quote and how he talks about self-preservation on one hand and, you know, social injustice on the other. So, he knows the lifestyle that it's affording him. And he also knows it, yeah, it's wrong. It's jacked up. I wouldn't want anybody to do it to me. And museums, to me, we, we've got a bigger responsibility and a bigger ability to be able to tell that story, because more people are going to come to us today to look for their fact check than they are going to be on the internet. And I just think my upbringing around that [it's] kind of always pushed me towards it where it's, "No, you got to tell the truth. You have to, you can't," I call it 'coddle culture.' So, I'm waiting for that word to be taken. But museums do a lot of coddle culture, um, you know, and I can say it comfortably. Um. And I don't think any, hopefully, nobody in Colonial Williamsburg will be upset with me, and [if] they do, you know what? Oh well. But it, museums do it, they coddle, they definitely coddle. Because they, certain times where you look at, you know, when they put exhibits up and what they'll say is "Well, we don't want to, you know, put this up right now." Why not? And it's coddling, so you start looking at, "Oh, we don't want to put it right now." Yeah, timing has a lot to do with it. But also, times when there's a reason why they don't want to put something up. Not because, you know, it's so much of the timing. Because the person who's in charge that exhibit isn't ready for it. Because we hear the [excuse,] "Well, the donors aren't ready for it." You know what, there's, there's donors everywhere you flip a circle, you know, you're where you lose one you'll gain two, if you're honest.

I think that's what, I think coddle culture is a perfect way to say that. That it really summarizes, you know,

Yeah

the museum staff might not think the people are ready, and that definitely reflects something on them as well. How, so how,

Yeah.

so how does that process and, like, do you think that culture has changed, lessened since you started at CW? Like, you've worked there for so long, it's been such a big part of your life. Like, how, how has the interpretations, and of African American history, and Native American history too. Like, how do you think the interpretations have changed? Like, what do you think has, do you think they have changed?

So, there have been attempts to make them change, um, and that's, that's always been a big thing. That is definitely been the attempts. As far as the success of it. It's about the same. And why that is because like any foundation and like museums in general, people don't go anywhere before work there with me when they're there three years, they're there 35 years. So, in Colonial Williamsburg, it's a prime example of it. You know, we go back and forth. Okay, we're going to, you know, work, on evolving and changing this The Narrative, we change the headline. We don't necessarily change the narrative. This year it is been a little bit more focus on it. And not so much just because of the fact we got a new president [that's] there. But because a lot of what was the groundwork that was laid by [the] last president. His job wasn't so much history. I mean, he had a different job that he had to do and he did it, but he made sure to mention, like, "Hey, you know the tides going to turn, so either you're going to be with it, or you're not going to be with it." Um. And now, like, the tides turning for a lot of people, and so they're starting to see the other museums around are turning that tide, specifically, like, the Smithsonian Museum because for a while, like, black interpretation was always, "Well, you know, nobody wants to see it." But that was always what was said. Nobody wants to see any, nobody wants to ask about it. And then you know, that museum in DC opens up, and it's like, man, it's been open with two and a half years now, and you still have to wait almost 30 days for a reservation. So clearly people want to see it and it gets the attention. Um, and the same was like, you know, the Indian culture. Those, "Oh people, you know, they look at it because they want to see the Indian and it's entertaining to be able to, you know, they got that picture with them, but they wouldn't want to hear the story." The first time we actually had like a lecture series, like man, it was, like, 450 people that were there, and they were, they were overwhelmed. Not the Native American guys that were there, but the Foundation was overwhelmed, because we're all "We didn't imagine it would be like this" and it was like, "Well, we've been trying to tell you." Um. So, we are the culture, um, in a way, but the more changes, the more stays the same. Because, the same people who are here, who are supposed to tell that story, they figure out a different way to kind of skip telling the story. Like, for instance, right now, and, like we said, we won't throw any names out. But I mean, I know a guy, and I mean he's a friend of mine, and I call him on it all the time but his ideas like giving a tour that's honorable, you know, in the idea of black people. Or if he has black people on his tour, or people that look black to him, because I have to phrase it like that for him. If he mentions, you know, five names and then he's done his job. And it's like, "Okay. So, if I mentioned five names of just white guys on my tour, and I completely ignore, you know, whatever house I'm in, is that acceptable?" He goes, "No, that's never acceptable." "Okay. Well why is acceptable for you to do it?" but that's, that's in his mind, you know, that's acceptable. And why it's acceptable because that coddle culture that's been here has allowed that, you know, to be. And I'll give you, you know, a true story. In 2010, we were doing what we called orientation walks. Our orientation walk started at the Gateway Building, which is down by the Governor's Palace. There's about a thirty-minute walk of the town and it was just a simple introductory, you know, walk, to kind of show people, like, how to read the map, figure out where they were, where the bathrooms are, how the buses ran, and give them, like, three things they'd be interested in possibly seeing. I hated the way that setup was, cuz, like man, "This is, like, this is boring. Like, if that's all my orientation walk is, I don't need to walk. They can come into the building, look at the map and ask somebody in five minutes and figure that out." So, my, like, orientation walk was, "I'll do that for you, but we're going to have, like, some fun with this. I'm going to make you, like, man, this is cool." And then there's going to be a history lesson in there for everybody that's in the group and there's going to be three things that I want you to go find. If you are an adult and, you know, male, "Hey, I want you to go find this if it's open today or find that person [at all] female. If you're a kid, I want you to go find this." And so that was always, like, my, my way of doing my orientation walk. But, there were only three of us that were black that would do those walks, and all three of us always got similar complaints. It was whenever we would start talking about black folks, it was, we spent way too long talking about black people. I'd say, "Hold on, I only got thirty minutes and you know fifteen of it, I was showing you how to read a map, or telling you watch out for the horse manure on the ground." But you know as soon as I dictated in -- Me and one of my friends, we actually did this, because we, we got tired of, you know, always having to defend ourselves. So, we would time our walk and then we would time how long, like, we talked about black folks, and we'd have our stopwatch. And then we time it again, and we averaged six minutes and thirty seconds. So, it was typically, and I can tell you down to the frame, for mine. It was typically six minutes and thirty-seven seconds, is what I usually would average. And that was with me consciously, in my mind, you know, kind of bracing myself. "All right, getting ready to talk about somebody that's black, and let's see how well this is going to go." And which is a terrible thing, because why should I have to in my mind make that conscious, like, "Okay, and so let me make sure that I've been talking about enough of these white guys and white women long enough, you know, to keep them comfortable when I talk about the black people now, or the black aspect of Williamsburg, or the native aspect. But if six minutes and thirty-seven seconds is enough to upset you, that's not about me. It's about you. And I got numerous complaints about that and actually got talked to one time, by two of my supervisors about it. And I can remember how pissed off I felt. And I also remember in 2008, when Barack Obama was elected, the three of us that were black, we got pulled into a room, and we had a seventeen-minute meeting on how to interact with our colleagues if Barack Obama was to be elected, the first go-round. And you want to talk about how insulting, you know, and how much of a slap in the face we took that as. And I remember, I remember cussing, um, when. So, I'm always pretty bold. I sat still for about maybe, it might have been a minute. And then I said, "Are you serious?" And then it was a train reaction, where we all said the same thing, "You're kidding? Like you're really going to have, you know, be pulled aside to have a meeting on how to interact with my colleagues. First of all, how do I interact with them on a day-to-day basis? So, secondly, I don't need you to tell me how to, you know, handle myself. Thirdly, we've all got Facebook. So, the same way you look at my Facebook, you could have looked at theirs and saw what they had been posting. So be fair." Um. And then the biggest slap in the face was the fact that, to me, it was like, that's like telling the guy who, and this is a terrible metaphor, but I'm going to use it, because it's for some reason it's kind of the only thing that ever makes sense for a lot of people. Like telling the guy who just got out of jail, um who didn't do anything wrong, not to celebrate. And it's like, "But I didn't do anything wrong, so why am I not allowed to celebrate, because the jurors and the judge put me in here, you know, made the dumb decision." But for some reason, if you give that example, or not that example, if you give any other example, it never really hits people. But when you give them that one, it's always "Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's, that's messed up." That's, I'd love to use different word, but yeah, it's jacked up. That's like, And that's, that's how I felt about that. And I put it like this. It's so vivid. I can almost still tell you, like, what the weather was, like, that's how vivid it is. And I can still name the, the other two colleagues [that] went in there with us. I know what color, the pen, the writing was on the board that had our names on it, and we were supposed to meet. Because we didn't get a, like, printed paper, piece of paper in the mailbox. It was written up on the board for us, and it was like, all right, this is odd, all three of the black guys are going [in] here. But yeah, that, that's something that happened, you know, right here in Colonial Williamsburg in the Colonial Williamsburg Foundation. And it's, it's not going to be the last time it happens, um, I can say that much. Because a lot of that mindset that is still there. Are they having to change right now? Yeah, but they're having a change for survival. It's not because they care. So, there's a lot of people who want to act like, oh, yeah, they really are for telling, you know, a, a fully inclusive story. But how inclusive do they want to be is one thing you got to ask. And then, "Okay. Did your boss just come down on you? Because two days ago you weren't saying this, and I worked for you before you had a position that was higher than what you have, and I remember some of the words [you] used to say. And it's, like, that's, that's really funny." You know, people act totally different when their jobs on the line and when they're having to survive. It's almost like, I'll have a black friend now because he'll be my lifeline, or, you know, when foundations don't hire people that are, like, gay or, or oh, I don't want to say obese, but of size, because they don't want to be looking at being discriminatory. And so, they go and grab the first person that's like, "Oh man. This guy's got size. See, we are people that, you know, aren't just built like supermodels." It's like, you didn't fix anything. You didn't do it. You just proved to me that you've got an issue, the way you responded just proved to me that, yeah, you've got a problem. Because if that wasn't about you, you wouldn't have no rush to go do it. Like, it's kind of like, you know, when you were a kid and your mom told you to clean up your room. And she leaves, you know, she's gone, you know. "Yeah, I got two hours." But she only makes a fifteen-minute trip out, and you're like, "Shoot!" You hear the car pulled in the driveway and you're trying to rush and "See I cleaned the kitchen ." You're trying to do everything you can to let her know that you were cleaning it. It's, like, no you weren't, you didn't care about it, but now because you realize like, "Oh my gosh, you might lose a privilege," or, you know, there's going to be something bigger going down the line, now, you care about it. And it's not that you care. You just care about getting the job done so she leaves you alone for the next two weeks. So, you don't care about making the change because you're going to still do the same thing.

Can I, so, those incidents [that], especially in 2008, did they, so they only talked to three guys?

Yeah, it was only three of us. Three of us that were in there, three black guys.

So, was your mom working for the Foundation at that time? Did they, do you know?

Um, I think my mom, like, started in 2010, I think she started.

I'm just trying to figure out exactly, they talked to three, three young guys would, okay.

Three young guys. Well, we were all, so we are all the same age. So, we're all 32 right now. We are all the same exact age and we all, we all have a similar background. Our personality, personalities are totally, totally different. But we all have a similar background where we're confident. One of the guys, he's reserved but you're not going to walk over top of him. The other guy's a comedian, like myself, where, I mean, we'll make a joke out of you. You know, it's like, "you sure you want to do that?" But yeah, when, when we got pulled in there, I mean, we all said the same thing, like "You're kidding, I know you didn't just pull us out of a briefing to come have a separate briefing about this." And I remember one of the posts about it on Facebook, because it was, like, man, for I could care less if they get rid of me, because it was like, this is stupid. It's like, this is disrespectful. And I just remember thinking, like, the only reason why I didn't, and this is, is really jacked up. The only reason why I didn't, you know, post about it, because I was like, "Who's gonna believe that?" It was like, it was only three of us in there.

Which is even [more] telling of the situation and of society, I think.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean there's, there's been issues that I think every person of color. I mean, I would say even, not even just making it a black issue. I mean, there's an issue for every interpreter along, you know, the lines, that they could go and give you something that's happened and people will say, "Well how come you didn't, you know, go to, you know, a supervisor, how come you didn't go to HR?" Because, I mean, what's a Char {sic} going to do? Ask me "Well, how could you have handled it better?" Why do I need to try to handle it better for, you know, doing my job? And I mean, I'm pretty honest, if I do something that's jacked up, how you let, you know, like yeah, it was jacked up. Oh, I just want to talk to you. I mean, it's pretty, like, poker face, like, easy to read, like, when I'm, like, all right. Yeah, that was messed up. But I don't ever how can I word this the right way? I think about almost everything before I say it. So, as much as I would love to be reactionary, I can't be reactionary, and I'll tell you the honest reason why I can't be reactionary. My mom works in Colonial Williamsburg and there is a reactionary culture that's there. So, like, you do something, a lot of people aren't brave enough to, you know, target you but they'll go target the next person. Well, let me go and pick with his mom. I’ve got cousins that work in the Foundation, so I know, like, sometimes when I see somebody, even if I don't want to talk to you, like, let me just say something to him, [before he goes over and bothers] one of my cousins. Let me just "Hey, what's happening, man?" Because, you know what, if you're talking to me and you're, maybe you're focused on me, you're not focused on them. So, and that's a, it's a terrible way to be, but I mean, there's a lot of folks that are in the Foundation, especially of color, and they, I would say, would have no problem telling you, "Yes, that's exactly how I think." And they would say they think that exact same way because it's a very real situation for us.

Like, you have to protect each other because of that minority status within the Foundation, like, as like, you have to protect each other to make sure, hopefully, that doesn't happen, you know, getting pulled aside for that conversation for no real reason. Like trying to keep that from happening to others.

Yeah, absolutely. We have to, because there's only, at my last count, and I hope I'm wrong. Like, I really hope I'm wrong, but I came up with 31 black employees that were in costume for the Foundation and to represent, you know, fifty two point four percent, that's not enough. That's not enough and I'm tired of, like, the excuses always being said though. "We can't find people." It's like, that's a lie. No, Lowe's has no problem, you know, hiring people, Home Depot has no prob, problem hiring people, you know. There's neighborhoods all around the Foundation. There's people that walk through that Foundation all the time that are going to and from, you know, job interviews. There's a McDonald's that's like maybe a mile down the road and there's a bus stop that's there and every time I go to that McDonald's, this is funny. When I first started working in Colonial Williamsburg, I used to get laughed at by the guys at work think dollars you owe me "How you wearing that uniform? "It's, like, the same way [you're] wearing that uniform," and since I would say probably 2016, that conversation is changed. "Man. Yeah, that's cool job, man. One day I'm gonna come over. I'm at work there with you, too." But just because of me, like, being, being nice to him and not like throwing off, because I could have easily been like "Oh man. Look where you work, McDonald's," and, and it's, like, I wouldn't have done anything except made it a situation, made an enemy. But it was, "Naw, man, Hey, the same way you put your clothes on, that's how I do it," and, you know, from talking to him and saying, [I'm] when I would go, you know, getting lunch, now it's, "Oh hey, that's the dude that drives the carriages. Oh, you still working over there?" "Yeah. I'm still working over there." and we have a conversation. I learn their names. And I probably had, in the last, I would say last year, at least six of the guys and one girl over there asking about even working at Colonial Williamsburg. So, their mindsets changed. And I am going to be, you know, the one they brag on it. That's because of me, because I know it was nobody else going in there and talking to them, because I know who we work with and most of those folks aren't going to go in there and talk with them. But, um, I hate, whenever, you know, I'll be honest. I hate whenever somebody black, you know, retires from the Foundation. Because the likelihood of us replacing that person with that skill set, is, I'm not going to say it's zero. I say it's 10%. It's a ten percent likelihood that we'll be able to replace it. Um. And I've seen it happen even, even as a young adult from 18 to now. I've seen that happened where, you know, like, people leave and the Foundation [ ]. And then I've seen it where it's been no attempt to replace it either. And that's, that's probably the part that hurts the worst. That's, that's, probably the hardest part is, because we all, even if we don't like each other, all the black interpreters kind of fight for, like, the same, like, similar goals. So, and that's the part, they, like, kind of gets, I would say, they kind of eat[s] almost all of us.

Your presence there is essential in any, any time that, that presents lessons, especially if you can't, can't, or people won't, you know,

Yes.

add it back, that. Yeah.

Yeah, it's hard. It's a rough one, because you're trying, you're trying to, you know, preserve your, trying to preserve a legacy, honestly. It's not even, we're past, not saying that we're not preserving the history, but we're past the point of preserving the history. Because we've got social media and we've got people documenting that now. And once people realize they can get paid off of history. Oh, you got no problem preserving it, because people want to preserve [it then], because they can write a book, and "Oh wow, I get to travel around." I don't like that. It's amazing how people have, won't have an interest in it. Once they realize, like, "Oh, well, I got a title now," or, you know, "Hey, my face was on the blog," you know, all of a sudden the interest that it's generated. Like I could care less if my face is on the blog. It's on there a lot of blogs, but it's not because I'm that good. It's because it's only two of us that drive carriages that are black. It's, it's not always say[ing], there's nothing, that I'm doing that if somebody really like took the time to, like, sit down and, like, break it down and see, like ,what it is I'm doing. Nothing that I'm doing is, is over the top. It's just I'm consistent about what I do is, yeah, we all have a talent but I'm doing nothing that's any more different than what the white guy who plays, you know, George Washington is doing. The guy who portrays the Marquis De Lafayette. I'm coming to work. I'm doing my job. I'm speaking of people. Do I do it with a different flare and a style? Yeah, but you know, that doesn't, that's not what is the big thing that sets me apart. What sets me apart is that people can tell there's a genuine compassion that's there. Cuz people go to what's real, that go towards, that people know a real feeling, you know, when somebody cares, you know, when you come somewhere three years ago and that Carriage driver still remembered your name. Like that's real, you know, if he didn't remember your name, but "Hey, what's happening? I remember you're from Florida?" That's a real feeling. So that's where I separate myself from people and the black colleagues that I work with. I watch them do that same thing when they take the time to know the people, because we have to. We don't have that, that Leisure of kind of not being able to know, because you've got to always know who you're around, because who you're around to be somebody who's going to try to oppose you. Somebody who's going to try to belittle you. It can be somebody who's going to have your back. So, we kind of always have to, have that, I don't want to say guarded awareness, but we always have to be situationally aware.

No that, that was awesome.

And I'm sorry for that super, duper long answer.

But I don't want to take up too much more of your time. But I wanted to ask just a couple, a couple more questions.

You're good.

This goes, connects with that, but also goes back to something you said about when you, how you saw interpreters when you were a kid, and how important is that, like, and we have already discussed this a little bit. But, like, how important is that representation for, you know, a young black person or a young any person, to see you just in that role, and to see other people in that role. It's not just you it's and having that, you know, it's not just George Washington that there's other people there. How important is that for, for kids and like the community that visits?

Yes. It's super crucial. To me, that's the visual that matters, not uniform, not a horse on the street. Um, horses on the street are important. Yes, they play a part, but on a rainy day, people still come to Colonial Williamsburg. Like, the Fife and Drum hasn't been on the street since Covid, but people still know Colonial Williamsburg. They can still, you know, know, yeah, there's Fife and Drum there, there's horses there. But it's not what's driving the trip. And I'm not taking anything away from Fife and Drum, because there's nothing like it. I chase the Fife and Drum from, like, the time I was five until like 28. Like, I'll be on the carriage right now and still follow behind them. Like the Fife and Drums is pivotal and things like that are important. But who's in the uniforms of the Fifers and Drummers? That's what's important. Like people talk about uniform, and what always upsets me when they go to uniform. We do this great attention to detail of uniform, but when it comes to people, or I won't say people, but it comes to certain groups of people, we put more attention to detail on the clothes than we did the people. It's, like, that's pretty jacked up. Because when you tell me you can't find anything about this person, but I can point to you [a] runaway ad, where that Master writes down and details everything about that person. Because he wants his property back, you know, down to know where his teeth, you know, might be chipped, where he has a crook in the smile, the wave pattern in his hair. And it's, like, "Well, that's funny, because you just told me we couldn't find anything about this person, but this master right here took an awful lot of, you know, money to print this ad, and put three paragraphs in worth [of] the all the skill and everything else that this person had. So, it's going to sound, like, I hate costume. I don't, but I hate the argument that we present for costume. Because, if I want to look at costume, I can go, you know, Google it or I can go look at it, you know, on a dummy. Like, when I go to JCPenney. I mean, I could see the way the clothes look, you know, on that little dummy that's there. But what makes, what makes me I guess tick is when you see how a kid reacts. A kid reacts honest, like, if they like it. They like it, they're going to follow, like, what they like, they're going to follow the Fife and Drum. They want to march with them. They're going to follow the carriage. They'll follow people around. I've watched interpreters here, black, white, young, and old, they get a crowd and they get a kid to follow them. To me, that's cool, because that's, like, that reminds me of me when I would come to Colonial Williamsburg I wanted to know where Trace was. It was, "Hey, is Trace working today?" because I remembered he was the cool dude, and I just thought, like, man, I want to be like him. And I didn't see, I saw uniform that he was wearing, but I couldn't tell you about his uniform. Like, I knew he was a guy who wore the uniform, but I knew Trace, like, he's the guy that wore that uniform. So, and I could pick Trace out when he wasn't in his uniform. I, I knew how he walked, so, when he would have his research days, my mom would still, you know, let us run {Duke of} Gloucester Street, cause it's a mile long, half a mile wide. So, we do it down and back and get in the car and be tired. But I could pick Trace out, I could hear his voice, and I could find him. Like, that, that stands out to a kid, and so the prime example. So, I got into a debate last year. We were in a training, they were talking to us about, you know, uniform and, like, the sounds of towns. Yeah, those things matter, but, you know, when I buy a rap album or I buy a music album, a lot of times there's no video that goes, you know, with that, that song, but I can see what he's talking about. You can feel it. Like, I don't, I didn't need his clothes, you know, to say. "Oh man. I know he's down the blues right now." You can feel the emotion that's coming from it. I mean Stevie Wonder's blind but look at the picture he can paint. So, it's, we, we, we find those crutches and we try to, like, cling to them and it's, like, man, stop and use that as a crutch. So, like, I just think, I think there's so many ways museums, and not only the Foundation like Colonial Williamsburg. And yeah, I'm gonna critique the Foundation more because it's what I know, and it's where I work at.

Yeah.

It's kind of like your house will always have more to say about, you know, our house and, you know, the neighbor's house until we live in it. Um, but I don't, I don't know, it's so much it's so much that, you know, I've probably run out of tape time for you.

Sort of along those lines. So, like, how important is having diverse representation to bringing in diverse audiences? Because that's definitely something in my trips throughout my childhood and to now, that I have noticed in, like, who the audiences of Williamsburg are, especially in who the audience for museums are. So how do you, how do you think that representation influences the audience itself? And who comes?

Man, I think it's super crucial right now more than ever, because the American family is getting more diverse again. It's, um, families don't look, you know, the way you, they want to, you know, paint the picture of "Oh, this is the traditional family." It's man, people are adopting kids, um, you know, there's people that are like proud of their biracial family and putting it on Instagram and Facebook and they want to show it all. Um, so, to me it's, like, we better recognize, because when they come, they're not going to be cool with, you know, that, that same old story of, "Okay. Yeah. This is, you know, this is where this guy lived," or "this is the Patrick Henry store." They're going to want to know alright, yeah, so about, about his family. So, what do they look like? Because, that picture of Queen Charlotte looks like she's got some African features there, so, tell me about that, and the internet's a bad thing, man. And I tell people all the time, like, if you ask me something. I usually give people on each one of my tours, not all the time consistently, but almost every other tour. I usually give them somebody to look up and it's usually a bi-racial person. And it's like, and look this person up, and it's just showing that "Hey, Thomas Jefferson wasn't the only person who was doing it." And, you know, now you got people who are digging in because of these 23andMe's, and I'm doing my ancestry and you know what, they're opening that book and they're going to the courthouse records and they're looking to find out who their family is. And the more you shake that family tree, I mean a whole lot of Me's is going to fall off and it's like, you know, I've shaken mine. I know it's coming off of it. And I'm proud of it, the I think it's super, duper crucial. And then as far as, like, telling, um, you know, the stories. I think it's, it's important to have people that are black telling, you know, the African story. It's important to have people that are black telling the European story, or it's important to have people that are Indian telling the European story, because we were all affected by each other's story. So, and like, I can't feel comfortable about, yeah, you know, only black people are going to be allowed to tell black, the black story. Because, that's, number one, it's wrong. And two, it's like, how can I expect, you know, growth, and somebody to come towards me if, you know, one of the people that, you know, they're looking at doesn't look like them, I mean a lot of times, you know, the fact that you might have. So, we should do a tour and we would have liked to people with us and sometimes if you had, like, two black guys there or you could watch out there, I don't know about this one. And then the minute it was somebody right there. You can watch how they go, like, they found like some comfort there and that's okay. Like, that's A okay, because when I come to a place, I look for somebody that looks like me. Like, I look for "Hey, man, where's somebody that's black", and if I can't find somebody that's black, it's "Where's somebody that's young," like, that's, that's just human nature. So, I think that we can't. We can't want to deny it and act like, you know, that doesn't exist. That's just how people are. You know, I had friends in my cafeteria, you know, that were black, white, but I usually sat with, you know, my friends [who] were black, so, and my friends were white usually sat with my friends that were white. And you know, what half the time we'd get up and go run over to that table and then run back, and wasn't because we didn't like him, or "Oh, yeah. I'm just gonna sit over here", nine times out of ten, you know, the way, unfortunately the classroom was set up. I usually didn't see them. So, it was like a "Aw, hey what's happening," like, "man?" "I'm not going to see you." And the other thing was it's a feeling of comfort now, because alright, yeah, now I can like kind of relax. Because as much as my friends, you know, that are white, are my friends. It takes a lot more for me to really be myself around them. So, and I'm sure they can probably say, you know, in some ways the same, you know, for me. It's like, yeah this, "I can be cool around Adam," but I'm sure there's some things they don't say around me, because, like yeah, I don't want to say that, but I appreciate that, like, I appreciate them, you know, taking that consideration to not say, you know, everything that's on their mind. Because if they did we probably wouldn't be friends. Sometimes, and it's A okay, like, there's nothing wrong with that. Like, I'm never going to tell somebody, like, who's being himself, like, "Yo, don't do that around me." Because, like, no, you're being you, I'm, I know what I'm getting. So that's fine. So yeah, the diversity we definitely need it, and we needed it all levels, um, not just, you know, presidents and CEOs, but we need, you know, somebody who's going to be a representation in all of those platforms. Because you got to have somebody in the meeting, because if they're not in the meeting, that's how those, like, jacked up stories get told or that's how bad decisions get made, because it sounds good, and a lot of the time the intent may be there, where it's all, "I want to really do this. I think it's going to be next in line." It's not going to work.

It's like, "Oh it's great in theory", but in practice, oh this horrible plan.

Yeah, it's terrible, yeah. Yeah, it comes out and it's like "Oh my God", that was horrible. And then you end up looking like the jerk, because it was, like, "Man I wasn't. It's almost like you end up looking like the racist, and you weren't racist because you're not trying to be racist. Nobody knows it. You know, you've been around the Foundation, you know, for how long, they just see that one moment, and that one moment that it was, like, "Man, that was terrible," and that tells story for, you know, that person that's only coming there for that one day, for that two hours. So, it's like. So, it's like, the people that used to come for, for like a week trip to Colonial Williamsburg, that doesn't happen anymore. Like, we still get some of those folks, but we don't get that same, you know, travel. Because now vacations are, so, I say it like, vacations are more accessible to people. And if you've got the historic triangle where you've got Jamestown, Yorktown, and, you know Colonial Williamsburg. If you got the historian, I mean [shoot] they can go to Jamestown one day, Yorktown one day, Colonial Williamsburg one day. It's not "Oh, well, we got to spend three days at Colonial Williamsburg, a day at Jamestown." Now Jamestown is doing pretty darn good. Yorktown doing really good. Like that's a competition. So, they're not spending the same length of time, and then Busch Gardens sells itself. So, you know, families are going to go to Busch Gardens. Like, I tell people all the time, "Yeah. Yeah, come to Colonial Williamsburg. Man, you might want to go to Busch too." Like there's nothing wrong with, like, saying, "Yeah, go to Busch." But we got to recognize to, like man, the, the diversity in travel. Not just, you know, race-wise is changing, because the pocketbook has a lot to do with it, and like everything man. If a little Timmy's happy, you know, mom's gonna be happy. Dad's, he's going to be happy. So yeah, I mean, we've got a lot to look at there for the drivers of diversity.

So, to round out most of our conversation. What is there anything that you think that Williamsburg, because that's, that's where you work. That's where you are. Is there anything specific, or, more in general things that you want them to do, thing changes that you think are necessary or that would seriously improve, you know, the programs.

Yeah. Yeah. Uh, so, like the first thing I would say is, be forward, you know, just go for it. Because when you make the attempt you did the first part, you made the attempt. Don't wait for other people to make the attempt and then jump on the bandwagon. So, like, the whole thing with, like, Hamilton. So, we would do a thing called [A] Revolutionary City here, and I'm sure whoever came up with Hamilton saw A Revolutionary City and was, like, "Man, I can make this a whole lot better." And a lot of it mimics our Revolutionary City. Like, it's, like, you watching I am I've seen this before and I'm not jealous of, you know, what they do with Hamilton, because, I mean, I'm glad they did it. But my thing is, you know, be bold, you know, go for it. You know, people that, you know, make history, they don't make it because they sat back and they were just like, you gotta be bold, even when you're telling the story don't be afraid to be wrong. Because the more I research I realized, "Damn I thought I knew that, but, uh, that was wrong." It's like, you uncover more and more and that's the cool thing about it. Because you realized, all right, so, yeah, twenty years ago, we thought like this. And this is why we thought like this, because this is what the information was presenting to us. But we know now, like, yeah, we were way off. It's just like, you know, anybody you're going to, you're going to improve if you're going to do your job the right way. Like, you should be aiming to improve. What you've been doing good. Yeah. I want to make that better. Where you suck, you want to be, like, "Okay, I want to make it so I'm not as bad," and eventually that's, like, the thing that people talk about. And I would love for us to start using the community again in Williamsburg. Because the people haven't gone anywhere. Like, we make these huge, like, "Oh we can't find the people," but they haven't gone anywhere. Like a lot of those same families are still right here in town. Um, and I would love for us to recognize the geniuses that we have within, because we've got some really, really, brilliant people and I'm so tired of seeing them leave Colonial Williamsburg and go somewhere else and be brilliant. And it's not that, because, and that's going to sound really shallow, and it's not that I'm jealous that they left the Foundation, they're doing bad. It's the fact they had to leave the Foundation or to be able to do that. Because a lot of them are genuinely, like they want to stay in the Foundation. Like, this is where they want it to be their last drop, and they don't want to go anywhere else. But they end up, you know, having to because hey, you got a family. And I don't blame you. Um. And we've seen that in, like, the past seven years. It's been, like, oh my gosh, here's another one that you look, "Hey, where she at, man?" "She's in Hollywood doing this on this set, or this guy's working here at the Smithsonian." He just came up with this or these two guys are actually, you know, casting in Hamilton right now and it's, like, and where'd they come from? And it's we keep getting hit in the face with and it's we're not recognizing. I don't want to say we're not recognizing our own talent. We're taking for granted our talent that we had. Like the guy who taught me how to drive, you know, carriages. When I first started learning how to drive carriages, I sucked, and I was taught the wrong way. And the person who taught me, I'm not going to say her name, but she had no business teaching me how to drive. But, you know, laziness, and then the fact that, you know, it was a buddy, buddy like coddle system in Colonial Williamsburg. Well, you know, he hasn't killed anybody yet. It's, like, that's a terrible way to think that didn't teach me anything. My growth was stunted, but as soon as Mr. Bennett got here, I accelerated past everybody. And two and a half years from somebody teach me the right way and then me being a sponge and not having ego, I was able to learn and understand and then improve. And just in two years of me doing that, the connections that I've made, and become even greater. And people, people talk about it. Like, I get people that don't come to the Foundation, because most of the people that, you know, come to the Foundation, they don't know what they're looking at when they look at a horse. They just see four legs and a tail. But I've had my picture go up on other people's, like, photos, or somebody, knows somebody, who knows somebody, they see it. "Yeah, that's a proper Carriage right there. That's proper harness" or "He's got his horses going the way they should be going," and that's like, yeah, I like that, because that's the professional saying that, "Hey, this little amateur dude, he's on the way to being a professional." And we've got that potential in the Foundation. We get a lot of historians who come here, and a lot of people who want to become better historians in the Foundation. They come and they give so much effort, but then it's not rewarded, and oftentimes we get the reward confused with, "They always want money." Like, it's not they want money, just, you know, say that you're doing your job. Giving that simple recognition. Like, believe in them. That's enough to keep people here. Like, a lot of times, if you feel good where you're working at, and you feel like, man, there's a genuine support. You don't have to get paid $30 an hour. Like, you'll do the a, "Look I can, I can figure out a way to, you know, survive." I mean, I did that, and I mean, I'm still doing it, um, and I have no problem saying it to anybody. Like, because of the family that I work with, and like the close-knit environment, and the fact that I know, like, I've got friends that are here. Like that's a safety net for me. Like, that's part of, that's been part of the reason why I've been afraid to step away from it. Because it's, you know, you've got that safety net. You know, you have that support system. That's right here. Um. There's a lot to say about that.. The things, you know, in town and you can generate a lot of revenue, like, that, because when people come and they realize, "Man, wait, how many families are here working here?" There's so many people that think that that's super, duper cool. And it's, like, man, you can talk about that, like, people, people look at that and they see that as, like, that's a good thing. Because there's something obviously that the Foundation is doing right if you can keep that many people here, and you can keep them wanting to be here, like, that's a good thing. And so, I think the Foundation has to not be afraid to admit that, and they've got to not be afraid to, you know, say look, you know, what we're going to try and change it, and make this thing where it's better for all of us. Because, if the people at the bottom, like, believe in, you from the top, oh, they're going to have your back a hundred and ten percent. Like, that I always, it's like the football team. You can be losing 70 - nothing, but if your Coach saying, "Hey, hey, hey, guys, hang in there. We're going to get it," and he's giving you the right pep talk, and, you know, he cares. Even though you're getting your butt kicked. Oh, you're still gonna go out there and you're gonna play and you're gonna give it your best.

That's great. I hope that can take that some of these, these changes might make their way into the Foundation sooner, rather than later.

Yeah, they're going to make their way, you know, it's a matter of, you know, just how fast and then how they're able to do it. Because for every time you make a change, you know, where you see like, "Okay, we change this," something there's going to be another problem that's going to arise.

So, I mean, it's almost like cleaning your room. You find that the last time you were supposed to do. Yeah, so we have this, before we close out that is there anything, any questions or anything you wish I should have asked, or anything you wanted to talk about?

Naw, you're good. Like, I got always leave it up to the people, like, or the not the people, the person, the people the audience, you know, you asked what, you know, you want to ask, and I'll answer it. Um, and I think all the questions are good. I think you're going to like Preston if you get Preston, like, man, you're going to like Preston, because he's just awesome and I mean Preston's only worked at Colonial Williamsburg. So, like, this is the place that he knows, like, inside and out. I know it. I don't know it like Preston, like Preston and my mom. They know a different way Williamsburg than what I do. I got to come up in the Williamsburg that's had improvements made. Where Preston was coming [up in a] Williamsburg where it wasn't exactly so friendly. But when you ask Preston about it, I love his response everything he's all like, "Yeah, but, you know, that's just how some people are, you know, you live with him or you realize you have 15 minutes and he's walking out of your building" and I think that's brilliant. I'm, like, I don't focus on it so much, but I will let you know I do go home and then I'll like talk about it. There is all right, well Preston kind of like if you don't bring it up again. He's use I are really, like, and help blow it off and then you've got to remind them that it happened. And I think that's, like, that's amazing that he can do that, because that's a survival tool. It's a super, duper cool survival tool to be able to have are you saying, uh, whatever? And I think that's so indicative of the people that have been in town and been in Williamsburg, you know, black and white, but mostly black, because we come from those mindsets of the people that were there three hundred years ago. So, I know that 300 years ago, there was somebody bought and operating just the same way I do, and I know that 300 years ago, there was somebody operated the same way to that Preston. They just blew it off and ,whatever, you know in 15 minutes he'll be asleep, but, yeah, that's one of the cool things.

Awesome and I just thank you so much for talking with me today and during this interview. I really think that we you have a very wonderful perspective on your own experience, but also on, you know, overall experience and I'm really glad that we could get a recording of it. So that others will be able to understand and empathize with that.

Yeah.

Alright. Thank you so much.

Yeah, I'm glad you invited me to do it. I'm happy for that , too. Okay. Yeah. Hey, thank you. You have a good one. God bless you. All right.