Preston Jones Interview, November 1, 2020

Right, we are recording.

Okay.

My, today's date is November 1st, 2020. My name is HopeLily Van Duyne and this is the second oral history interview in my project on the experience of African American historical interpreters. Today I am speaking with Preston Jones. We are interviewing remotely. I am in Washington, D.C .and Preston is in Williamsburg, Virginia. So, we're going to start really simply. When and where were you born?

I was born in 1958 in Williamsburg, Virginia, a place called Bells Clinic. It's no longer there. But I was, I was born there. If you're familiar with Williamsburg, it's in, it is right across the street from Phi Beta Kappa Hall, right in the area of the college there. So, but, uh, yeah.

And did you grow up in Williamsburg?

Uh. Yes, I, my mom and dad worked in Colonial Williamsburg and I actually grew up about, I guess, five minutes outside of Colonial Williamsburg, was good. It was York County I was born in, but it was, like, right on the verge there. I mean, you go down the street about a mile and there's Williamsburg. So, and my parents worked here. My mom and dad. Actually, I grew up here. So, all my family worked here. Colonial Williamsburg was one of the largest employers in the area besides the College of William & Mary. {cough} So, um, if you grew up here, chances are you worked here at Colonial Williamsburg, or your family and friends and your, people like that. My uncles and my grandfather. My grandfather worked here. He's with the Restoration when it first started. My grandfather did, uh. On my father's side my great-uncle, my grandfather's brother worked here, right? So, my great-uncle and so, like I said, if you, if you lived around here, chances are you worked here in some kind of way or the college. Yeah. My uncle and aunt, and my uncle help to get me a job, my first job here Colonial Williamsburg. My mother's sister's husband, it was. Yeah. So, my mom, my sister, my aunt worked here, my mom and so forth. 

Wow. Tell me more about your family. Like, do you, how many siblings do you have? What was it like growing up in your house?

Yeah, I was the only kid, so, um, I was the only kid. I grew up in a neighborhood, we had a little tight neighborhood. Calvert's Garden it was called. My best, best friend stayed across the street from me. He was, his mom, he was the only kid, but his mom remarried, and he had two stepsisters. And so, but and we all had neighbors, and we all play together. Long time ago, was a happy time. We all knew each other. The neighborhood was like one gigantic neighborhood. So, if I was down the street and you did something bad, then my mom gave the other parents' permission to, to beat me up. Not beat me up. But to discipline me, right? To discipline, and they had to, they had. They had the permission, permission to do that. So, they sort of instilled that in you. So, when it's, when it's a neighborhood kind of thing, it takes a neighborhood kind of thing, you've heard that. And it does and we were in that sort of that balloon kind of thing where everybody knew everybody, everybody knew everybody's parents, and stuff like that. Yeah.

Yeah. Um, so what, when you were growing up what you, in Williamsburg, obviously, you would have a lot of interactions with history, especially with your family working there. But what interactions did you have with history that, you know, had an impact on you, and the difference between school versus outside of school?

Um. Hmm. Um, well growing up here in Williamsburg, it was, and as a young kid, my parents sort of kept me, sort of sheltered. I wasn't taught, like, hating or that one person was any better than another because of what color their skin was, or who they were, things like this. So, I was never taught that kind of thing. I do remember being in Merchant Square here, in Williamsburg, which was sort of, in Williamsburg, area of things, it was sort of kind of uppity, so, sort of kind of thing. So, sort of certain places that my dad would take me. And then I remember as a kid being near this store is called Ben's, it was on a corner, and sort of looking in there. And I remember my, actually it was my mom said "Get away from there." You know, this "don't go in there." kind of thing, and I was just as a kid. I was just curious. Like, know why I couldn't go in there, but she's a "Come on don't ask any questions," you know. But all the, the black folks, they would you had, if you went in there, if you could afford anything in there, you had to go through, like, the back door. But I remember as a kid that way and something that. And next to it was a really nice men's store there and remember as a kid and thinking about it. But they never, they never said why, you know, as a young kid. You know, you kids are curious kind of things. There was a bakery I remember we could go in there and the and you could smell this place when you, when you drove up. It was really great and just drove up and remember the cinnamon buns and donuts and all like that. And my dad worked for a lady in town. He was part-time, my Dad worked, like, three jobs and so, he went on weekends he would go and do yard work for this one lady in town. And, and I would go with him. My mom would work, and I would just go with him to do this, this job, and some nice people. Then some people, I'd never really got into what went on with whoever he was working for, but he says "Hey, we're not going to come back and work for those people anymore." But some, some people he would work with. And then shortly after that my uncle, my mother's brother, my dad sort of said, "Yeah, you want to work for this person, you can work for them and do whatever they tell you." But again, as a kid growing up in Williamsburg, I was sort of sheltered to a lot of, things that was sort of going around me. I look at it now, as an older person, and talking to other people that I knew these things were going on around me, but I was sort of sheltered from that, if that makes any sense. So, yeah, like, you saying you talked to Adam {Canaday}and his mom, they grew up more in the city. They grew up in Williamsburg, the city of Williamsburg and I was sort of outside in York County which is a, which is a ways away. But my, my good friend I was telling you about, that we grew up with, he, his grandmother lived in the city. So, I would go with him sometimes and eat over their house and all. It was on Scotland Street right down. There's just down the street from the First Baptist Church, which is the first black church in Williamsburg. And, but she lived, house is down there. She was the best cook ever and I would go there and eat. And remember as a kid going there. And, and I will tell my friend, it goes how "Wow, we're going to the city. This is great," because I would always call him 'city boy' as a, as a, as a joke. And so, but. But remember being there and it was just sort of bustling from where I was growing up, sort of outskirts of town kind of thing. And as a kid remembering stuff like that. But again, being very sheltered what was going on around me in that time. If you can imagine that was in the, was 68, right stuff like that or earlier on.

What about in school? What kind of history education where you getting?

Oh, in school I went to, at first, our school. I went to kindergarten in, in town and the lady from where I was, Mrs. Epps would sort of chauffer us all and into the kindergarten in the town. This lady Miss Gurson, who was awesome person, would take care of us. And kindergarten, I went to first grade, second grade, third grade. It was mostly not integrated. But I remember when they integrated the schools about fourth grade or so. They integrated the schools. And again, with that, I was, like, well you know, it's, and, and the way, there where we were, the white kids were no better than we were kind of thing-- economically, the economic this. And so, and went to school there. And, and, of course, certain, certain times of the day, it's, you know, little fights would break out, but that's in any school. And, and then from, I went to school, Queens Lake, it was called, a sort of intermediate school and then high school. And I went to high school, they sort of, they sort of. I went to high school in Yorktown, because they, the schools that ,they didn't have enough schools from where I was in York County here. Like I said, I was right on sort of the line, and Williamsburg was sort of over, but since that line was there. I mean I could, I could walk to my grandmother's house who lived in James City County. I could walk from my house to her house in like 20 minutes, but they went to another school system. Right? And then from where I was, I had, they bused us down at Yorktown. And shortly after, after I graduated school from Yorktown, from high school, then they were building a school here. Which is and again, that's a long time ago. But yeah, Yorktown, that's pretty neat. And, and again in high school. It was, I don't know, it was really nothing to this. I have nothing else to compare it to, but, and. And looking back at it, everybody was. I have really good friends from, from that time still. Thank goodness for Facebook and stuff like that. I still talk to friends and, you know, and everybody has their opinions about stuff, but I still love them because we went all school together, and got in trouble together, and had good times together, and all this kind of stuff. So, um, yeah and yeah. 

Awesome.

Yeah.

What about your family history? So, Adam {Canaday}was telling me about the family history in the area, been there for years. What does your family history, like, help you feel connected to the past, separate from, you know, the past of Colonial Williamsburg, but of Williamsburg and the history there?

Uh, well, my family history. Well, like with Adam{Canaday}again, we sort of go back and we sort of reach a, a peak there together and, but, uh. Again, they were more, we, we, even though we're sort of, like, sort of distant kind of cousins. We are, we are related kind of thing with families and where my grandmother, my grandmother on my dad's side, and his grandmother on his mother's side kind of thing, and sisters and people like that. So, do we all sort of knew each other, and, and we can name some names which wouldn't mean much, much to this. But, uh, and then, might on my mom's side which comes from a different side of the, of the, the county and all. I can, my grandfather, my great-grandfather, who I knew, was part of Chickahominy, part of a Native American tribe and he. I knew him. And, we, again he was the one that worked in Colonial Williamsburg when it first started in the 50s or so. And so, but the connection with Colonial Williamsburg is from him, maybe? And my, my, my mom's dad, my grandfather, and as far as going back even further, {cough} even further than that. There's a, there's a bit of a connection. We sort of have to put things together. There's a little bit of connection. But not, I can't think of anything that, uh, that it ties in with what I'm doing here now. I certainly talk about African Americans in general here, working in all, and Native Americans, you know, working here as all, because, you know, everybody was sort of working the mold, what we're doing here, kind of things, so. That make sense? Yeah.

Yeah, so going into your work. So, would you consider yourself a historic interpreter, a reenactor, both, neither? How would you define your overarching role, before we go into the specifics?

I am an interpreter; I interpret American history. I have several jobs here. And then also, I also, um, I don't know if you call it, was it reenacting? Because, well, I guess, I do, do militia. I work in the militia. I do as a militia, I'm an ensign in militia because I've been here for so long. So, I take the ensign, I take the flag when we have that. We haven't done that in, since whenever the, March or so. But I do that as well, right and. So, I don't know if that's a, that's a, that's different than a re-enactor. Because, and, and our definitions reenactors do, do the job that we're doing for free, because they like doing it. We get paid for what we're doing. So, we're not really reenactors, but we're paid interpreters. And if there's such a thing as a paid reenactor, then, you know, you could say that, I don't know. Yeah, right. But, but in my, in my silversmithing job, I'm certainly here to silversmith. To learn 18th century silversmithing, using 18th century tools and techniques and to talk to people about that, and what I do, and the history that goes along with that.

Yeah, so, I want to get a little bit more into that. How, so what, what is your role as, like, this master silversmith really entail on a daily basis and overall? What, what does that look like?

Well, people come in, I have different projects that I'm working on and I have projects. I have projects that I work on. And people who want to come in and know how they did silversmithing in the 18th century and have questions about that. Most, most people are just, you know, what and I give a little, little interpretation on James Craig while he was here. And how they made silver in the 18th century, basically. So that's and certain techniques that we do. Um, so. And you were saying? I'm sorry, your second question? But

Oh, just, like, what is, what does it look like overall? Like, what is the silver, master silversmith sort of, what does that mean for interaction with the rest of Williamsburg? What does it mean it the greater picture that you build?

We're all Craftsmen. Yeah. And by the way, I'm a Journeyman. So, Masters were owners and the 18th century masters were owners, right? They didn't have to be skilled at the job to be a master. You just had to have money and you can hire people with the skill to work for and you're the master of, the owner of the shop. Um, today a master is just a manager or supervisor of the shop, right? So, well, but I'm a journeyman, what's called? So, I'm a worker. If my boss ever gets out that, do you know, you calling me a master silversmith he gets uptight about it. But we, but I'm a journeyman. So, I'm just a worker. And in the 18th century, journeymen were, were the real workers kind of the force. And in the Colonial Williamsburg, in the whole scoop, scoop of things, you serve apprenticeship seven years. After seven years and you become a worker as a journeyman and just perfect your trade. In the 18th century, the object was to make as much money as you could doing what you knew best, basically. And masters were owners. Apprentices were generally not paid. And I going, we do the same with the 18th century. However today, apprentices are paid when you first start out, right? Actually, I started out as an interpreter. Actually, years ago when I started here. Started as an usher at the Visitors Center when I was in high school, I got a job here. And I worked as an usher at the Visitor Center and so I sit there and do my homework and all. And I worked so much that I would work for people and so forth and sit there and work and that. And at that time, if you worked over a thousand hours, they would make you a regular employee. So, I'm work till like I on weekends or worked at night at so I made him a regular employee. So, by the time I became a senior in high school, I was a full-time employee. I was, I was hired part time, but I was a full-time employee. So, and I worked as an usher there and I worked at what's called a center desk who sell tickets and did a little bit everything kind of thing, but [ ]. My main job was to [ ]The Story of a Patriot. I don't know if you've seen that in, that the movie that they have here with Jack Lord and all. So, and I've been in for short time the people in the projection booth. I would go up there and hang around with those guys and I learn how that was done. And then a short time then I left, and I went to, I was a doing photography work in high school, and I went down to the Fort. I got a sort of a partial scholarship in photography at the Art Institute of Fort Lauderdale, in Fort Lauderdale, Florida and went down there for a bit. And I would come back home and work on holidays, and any breaks I had, I would come up home and I would work cause I needed money as a college student and so, needed some money. And so shortly after that I got out of that. It was, it was, it was too much to back and forth and so forth, and either I was going to stay there or go back home. And so, I got back home here, and I got a job in Colonial Williamsburg again. And they said, "Well, you were a full-time employee and you kept your time up. So, when you come back you could be hired as a full-time employee." So, I worked for a short time at the Distribution Center, which is like a big warehouse, like. Like, distribution, they had a warehouse to sell their products out of. So, I worked there for a bit and then shortly after, I got a job in the silversmithing. So, I started as an interpreter at the silversmith shop. So then, and shortly after that, they started an apprenticeship. The person who taught me, Mr. James Curtis, he says, "You want to learn this?" So, you know, so I said, "Yeah. So okay. Yeah." So yeah, so he taught me, me silversmithing. And so, I've been here ever since. It's been a long time. So yeah, that's sort of the history of me that way, so.

Yeah, that's awesome. What did you sort of, as a, as a kid, especially seeing as you, you said that Williamsburg is one of the, the biggest places hiring people, and so in high school when you got that job, was it because you wanted to work in Williamsburg, like, you knew that? Or was it because that was, that was sort of what was available?

At the time it was sort of what was available. I needed some money. And, uh, again, when I first worked at the visitor center, my uncle was working there again, and he, and also my friend of my dad's was there, so they got me a job there. So, and then I got really into history. They had lectures on different things and other. They used to show the movie 'The Silversmiths of Williamsburg'. I'm sort of fascinated with that,'The Gunsmith of Williamsburg'. And, and so I thought they were up sit there and watch those movies. I was, like, "Wow, that's pretty cool," you know, and do those watch. Look at those movies and all. But I, I didn't know what I wanted to do actually, you know. So, I was a young person there and, and didn't have any focus really on anything. Yes, and I would have liked to have gotten into the photography at Williamsburg. I remember talking to, forget the guy's name now, but, in the cameras and stuff that they had there and given to cinematography kind of stuff, but that was a whole 'nother ball game from what I was doing. But yeah, yeah.

Okay. That's a crazy kind of path to

Yeah.

a job ends up being, you know, a high school job

Career.

ends up being your career.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sort of changed into that and, and after I got into it, it was really neat. The Mr. Curtis who taught me was, was a really good teacher to teach me. And then at the same time while I was doing this, I was learning about history, more in depth about history and that was a really cool thing. So, it was fun coming to work, actually, because I was not only learning silversmithing, but I was learning, about, about history. And so, that's what I would look through those. Well, that's, that's pretty neat. Yeah about history, about silver, of course, and in just about the role that Williamsburg was, was, was, was in all. And got into different programs we had here as well, and to sort of. There was some programs that were sort of on the leading edge of being incorporated in Colonial Williamsburg. Like, they had, they had, like, the African music and Adam, probably, I don't know if he told you about that, but he was at, he's a drummer for that when they have those programs and I was one of the first, that was years ago and I was one of the guy who started that who became a vice president here. He's working down at the Smithsonian. But he started that, and I was sort of with those guys when it first started out doing that which is a pretty neat thing. That's, that's, that's a really neat thing. So old pictures you see of me there when I'm a young person helping those guys out. Yeah.

So, what, we've talked about a lot of your roles. What does it mean to you to be able to portray, you know, these roles, to be able to be an interpreter in Williamsburg?

What is my?

Like, what is it? What does it mean to you?

What does it mean? It means, well, it's pretty neat. I think it's pretty neat that when I do the Ensign job, and that would, I would tell my. Like, for instance, where the Fife and Drum Corps. I don't know if you've seen the Fife and Drum Corps when we used to march. At the, they had the militia out there and firing a guns and cannons and stuff. And the Fife and Drum Corps out there. And I got a good buddy of mine as, was the drum major. He was coming up through the ranks as a drum major and later on head of the whole thing. But I saw, like, I said, "Hey man, you need some color out [there]. All you guys are white guys, man. And, you know, there's, there's the audience that you have here is mostly white, but there's a, you know, we need something," goes "Yeah. Yeah, sure." So, I was in the militia at the time and all, so I sort of got me to take the flag as trooping. There's a, there's a thing called trooping of the colors where the Fife and Drum would play, and they would pass the flag down and Troop the flags. And the ceremony, so that the, so that the soldiers would know what the flag look, looked like so they could follow the flag into battle, and that honor was put on an ensign. So, and I like doing it. It was a really neat thing, but most, most other people didn't like it because they had to, they have to keep in time with the Fife and Drum Corps, which I loved. It was a great, so that sort of got me my ranking as an Ensign. That's another story about that. But got me my ranking in the, in the Fife and Drum Corps. So, I'm sort of proud that when I go out there, I take the flag. It's an honor, to take the flag. If you're, if you're, if you're, if you're Soldier and you're out on the battlefield, and you're taking the flag, then your, your role to take the flag is to advance the troops. So, the troops will know where the flag is. So, taking the flag out there, it's an honor, but, like they explained to me, if you're in battle and you have the flag, you're the crazy one that's out there in front, because they're going to shoot you first, right? So, but it's an honor to take it and to do it. So, it's very proud. And they, and that get the everything that goes along with that. And I have marched with them in the, there's an international tattoo they have, we used to do that, now because of Covid though. But every other year we used to march with international groups down at the Norfolk Scope. And I have the opportunity to travel with them to different shows and things like that. So that's. I feel good about that. That's a really neat thing. And silversmithing, it's really neat that people are interested in what we do, and we have donors who are interested, that we're interested. And so they will donate funds and grants for us to go. For instance, I've been to England with grants to study silversmithing and go to the different museums over there. Been to the Goldsmith's and Silversmith's Halls there. Boston, New York, so Washington, of course. But yeah, it's really neat though. So, it was a good moment that people who come here are interested in what we do, and they're willing to back us and fund us into doing these things grow. Again. It's really for the advance our education, of my education as well as teaching that passing that onto the guests to come here.

And so, I'll add in Adam's question now. Okay, he wanted me to ask you that. He said you won't brag on yourself.

{Laughing} Uh-huh.

And I, I had to ask if you've done pieces for anyone in particular, or what kind of. He said your work has gone around the world, and I had to ask about that.

{Laughing} It's just people who come shop here and, and, and I've talked to and, and, and it's pretty neat and just. And my boss always tells, tells people. And Lynda Carter, was Wonder Woman, the original Wonder Woman, Lynda Carter, she came in, so I got her phone number around here somewhere. She's awesome. I made a piece for her and she's, yeah. And Mary Tyler Moore on Dick, Mary Tyler Moore. Terry Bradshaw. I met, shook hands with John Wayne, which is, I didn't make anything for him, but it was pretty cool talk to him. These different people I talked to and it's pretty neat. Yeah, it's a brag. But, yeah, that's, that's neat and just this meeting people and, and, yeah, it's the, right off the top of my head those, those come up. We participate in an Economic Summit when Reagan was alive. He was around, got to see him. But I didn't talk to him but got to see him and all this kind of stuff. And different TV spots, it, it comes with the job. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, you won't brag on yourself as, as Adam said.

Sorry, it's hard to do it. {Laughing}

Modesty is a, is a virtue. So,

Thank you.

So, going into, getting a little bit more serious about, about your role and what you do. So, one of the things, and I spoke to Adam about this as well. So do visitors ever assume you are portraying an enslaved person simply because of your skin,

Yeah.

when in costume. Well, I'm, like, what is, what is that look, like, how do you counteract those impressions?

Some people do, because we have people who try to portray people from the past, and a lot of people around here, and some people come here thinking that we all are playing a role of some type, right? Some people do, so they we'll say, I'm. I in my years here, I've had people say things to me and you have to sort of brush it off that day, or that they're just ignorant. Ignorance is, is that people don't know until somebody tells them, then you're not ignorant anymore. Unless you have a willingness to remain ignorant and that's a different story. But, but some people just don't know, and they do ask. Some people will say, "Now, who are you supposed to be?" So, I'll have to explain to them what I do here. That I don't, I'm not portraying a role of any type. I don't pretend to play a role. And I like to tell people in a fun kind of way. There are people who portray people from the past, and they will portray, like, they're a craftsman. But they're, they're playing that as a role. So, they're not working. Whereas, I work, and I don't portray anyone from the past. So yeah, they, they act, they're actors, like, acting like they work, and I work, but don't act like it, right? So, and that saying that in a nice way people understand that. And then some people think I'm portraying, but right, right away the most people know, because I talk to them about silversmithing and I throw some 21st century idiom in there, and they go, "Well we didn't have that in the 18th century" and I say "Well. I'm, I'm talking to you now and I'm not portraying a role," so they sort of get it. Yeah, but some said, but some people will have had people come in, and they say things to you like, "You're supposed to be in character." Yeah, one of the, one of the talks is some of my African American friends who work and portray people, especially the women here, who portray roles here. They have really, really tough job because they're playing a, playing a, they have a character that they play, and they, they have black skin and they're a woman, you know, like, is two whammies, right? And the things that people say to them, and it's really, it's really sad, right? But again, some people are just mean, and it's not a lot, it's very small. But just one person will just totally wreck your day, and you think about it, which, you know, which. And if you're not that type of person, it really, it really bothers you. Yeah, I had situations for me. I'm telling people about and, I in my interpretation, I don't, I don't force this, the, the slavery thing down their throat, but I do try to educate some people. Because, if I have an audience there. I talk about them, when they come into the silversmith shop, people want to know about silversmithing, right? And, but I do try to put in about apprentices, were usually white boys ages from 8 to 14 and they usually white boys. But also, there were girls who were taught the apprenticeship as well. And people who "Oh, so, girls were taught this as well as?" "Yeah, there's no trade that was forbidden for women to do." So, people don't know that, right, and they're like, "Oh well, and it all the trade they, everything? Okay? "Yeah, gunsmithing and everything, like, a man would do, you know, why can't they? you know, you know, so and then the time about journeyman and in masters were owners and so you don't have to be skilled to be a master. You just had to have money." I tell them that, this is when the, at this time in our history, you could buy people, and if you, if you had enough money to buy someone, they were considered property. And if you taught your property a skill, it made their property value higher. So, the more skills they had, the more they were valued, and that became a problem, because people with money were buying people, enslaving them, and teaching them skills. It was putting other skilled people out of jobs. So, they had to pass laws to stop that. That you can only train enslaved people in unskilled labor. So, I add that in as part of my interpretation. And that people that walk, I had some guy that tells look to his wife says, "I didn't come here to listen for that" and they walk out, and, and, and, and, and different reactions I get. I get the, I call them 'the change rattlers', because there and you can tell, with the audience I have, I can sort of read audiences, and they come in and they sort of look at me and then look away, and they put their, I call them 'change rattlers' because they stick their hands in their pocket and their shake the change and walk around and look, and they're walking around like this, right? So, and they have to stay there because their wife or something is there, or sometimes other way around, very rarely, but their wife is there and they want to listen to it, but you can tell there, they don't want to hear what I have to say. And those are the ones I really loud talk to. You know, so because I know they're not going to be there long, so I'll try to get them, and you know, and. But I would say 95% of the people, and most of my audiences are white, but 95% of those people, when I say that, want to know. They don't some ask them question. Most don't, and some don't want to hear it, right? First, and so they don't want to hear that, right? But those that don't ask the question, it's great, because you can tell. Again, I can read, or isn't any perk up there, like, a goes and enslave people, "Oh, tell us," because you know, they come there to see me in a silversmith shop, you know, most craftsmen they see here are white, and, but they see me and they're, like, "Oh, okay." What and some people go, they go with, "Would you have been here? You?" Because yeah, yeah. Yeah, right. Yeah, it's telling. "Well, 52% of the population was enslaved. You would have seen more black people back then in town than you do now, right?" Yeah. And so, so I get that, I get that question. So, that, that that bothers me when people do that. And I'm done and I'm not trying to be mean, I'm trying to educate you and you don't want to hear it, right? You know, you don't understand where your history comes from, right? So, and then I have, I have, but most of the people I say that to, and it goes, "Wow, it started way back then." It goes, "Yeah, you know, it's, hey we're all 2020, man." We're still trying to, you know, trying to, trying to get on the ground here a little bit, you know, so, but things, things are, some things are good. Some things are positive, you know, but is a ways to go, I says, you know, listen. Yeah, that I try to put in a goes a look, you know, "You get your wife there. She can only, it was only, like, a few years ago, they allowed her to vote, women to vote. You know, what the heck is with that, you know what's you know, it's you know, that's still people are still around that can remember that stuff. So. But again, we have a long ways to go, but that's, as you can it's a part of history in spite of teaching people their education. And, and you know, I see in my audience that they, I don't know how to, kind of say this. A lot of Americans again, they're not, they are not educated. I don't want to, didn't want to learn or absent on History Day or something. I don't know, you know, you know, so I don't know, but it says, "Hey this is, you guys got to learn this thing. You know, you got to learn where you come from," but people are, you know, "Well, I didn't, I didn't start this, and I'm not just this, that, or the other." "Well, you got to look at deeper at what your, you know, your great-grandfather did." I mean ,you can't, you know, we can't blame them because that was the way in the world, but you can understand, you have to understand where other people are coming from to get, to get to know what's happening in the world today. You know, I don't want to get that deep with people. I don't get that deep with them, but I just talked with 18th century and they can make their own, you know.

Trying to get the connections without saying 'I'm making this connection'.

Yeah, and I, I, I tried it and then I try to make light of it, like, after the, you know, I tell people at the end of my interview with that talk them about Slavery, a little bit about enslaved people. Yes, as well, the bottom line to business in the 18th century is that, you want people to work for you, very hard for very little money, just like today, and I get that people, like, "Oh, yeah, we get that," you know, so that's what breaks kind of the, kind of that ice. But then it's really neat that I have some people who will, who will to continue on, they go on and tell them what I learn about enslave people who were silversmiths, right? There's a very few of them but there are some out there, which is pretty neat, well, stories.

How do you, do you feel like you get different reactions from international guests as opposed to Americans and different interactions.

Yeah. A lot of head nodding, you know, yeah, like yeah, yeah, not, not that, not really, they're about the same, I guess. I have a good friend that lives in England, and they yeah, they yeah, they're Americans are all weird. So, yeah, yeah, but that gets about the same, same kind of reaction. Yeah. Have a good friend that was just up here from, um, not Barbados, Bermuda. Yeah, and, and he came up and "Yeah, still the same up here." {Laugh} Is that right?

Is there when you're doing your interpretations, is there anything that you feel like you have to be careful about or things that you can't say or do when you're talking to people, because you might offend them or you might, you know, or like

Um. Hmm. Good question, not really there. I mean it's talking to the guests a certain thing. Yeah, you know, sure. But history-wise, yeah, I know where my line is, kind of thing. I don't, I can't think of anything that, um, well, I can think of stuff, but I don't, I don't think of anything that would, that's necessary to say that will hurt somebody's feelings or something. Yeah. I can't think of anything that, you know. No, not really. Yeah.

Ok.

I've been doing this a while. So yeah. Yeah, don't talk, don't talk on modern politics. Of course. Yeah, religion, things, you don't, do not talk about modern politics, religion. Yeah. So, we, I yeah, and I know you can. I , I, I had this one guy who worked here for years and he was, he was a really jolly guy. And everybody loved big. Guests loved him. They would ask for him, but he pulled me aside whether he goes, "Preston, you can say anything you want to these people as long as you say it with a smile." {laugh} And, and that's kind of true. {laugh}Yeah, and a chuckle {laugh} so it's kind of neat.

So, it's a good, good strategy to, yeah.

Yeah, right. {laugh}

things that people might not want to hear, but if you're smiling and laughing, yeah, like oh this person, like, Oh

Yeah

It's a good trick to get, get something across that you might not otherwise listen.

It's pretty cool. Yeah, it's sort of works.

Do you find that your influence, if you, if you, when you get to see an influence after, on what influence your interpretation has on different people? Do you see a difference between silversmithing and the Ensign? Like, do you ever get to interact with those guests, like, immediately afterwards, and sort of see how that interaction, like?

I see. Yeah. I've had some people, well, the way we work, I have an automatic relationship, but I have seen people, they come in the shop or something is, is "Hey we saw you taking the flag, bla, bla, bla. Would black folks have taken flags or African Americans taking flags back then?" I says, "Yeah, sure." But if you did see it, you wouldn't see it a lot, but it could have been done. The ranking would have been, wouldn't have been there probably, but, but sure, absolutely. Yeah, so it represents a lot and it, and it. It, it brings up a question, right? So, they see me out there goes. "Hey, I have a question," and it's a good question to ask, right, about military. But, you know, African American or enslaved people in the military, which is a whole 'nother thing, right? So, and so we can talk about, yeah, and so, educating people about that. Again, I like that people ask the question and they were wondering and then, you are ignorant, if you don't ask a question, right? You want to know something, and you don't ask the question, right? Yeah, so and you remain ignorant if you don't want to listen to what the answer is, I don't want to you know what I'm saying? Yeah, so, so I like that when people do ask questions, the, the question of "Okay, why is that? Would that have been here?" And then they know, yeah, right, so.

So, do you think people are sometimes afraid to ask the question because they are afraid to come off as ignorant. And so, they don't and so they remain ignorant.

I don't know, it may be so, yeah, that's a good, yeah, people's, maybe so. And I have, I have the different ways people ask me questions, because "I don't mean to insult you," and I know it's coming up when they say that. "I don't mean to insult you." "Okay, go ahead, go for it." I don't -- or ,uh, or just people. Yeah again, like I said before this, "Would you have been here," you know, "would you have been here?" "Yeah. Sure. Yeah, absolutely." So, but it's really neat how most ask questions. And then I, like, I said in my audience too, look at the audience. I went to Monticello, Thomas Jefferson's place, and a good friend of mine is the director of interpretation there, and he makes them all talk every, every, every, everywhere you go there, they talk about enslaved people, and they, he said, we have to, we have to because this place, you know, it's not all about Thomas Jefferson. This place wouldn't have been here if it wasn't for his enslaved people, you know. So, and I think that's really good and, and Colonial Williamsburg needs to do more of that here, and we're working on it. We're working on it. About enslaved people, more about the Native American people, and women who were here as, you know. Because, the way I think some people in the past have learned history. And I remember as a kid growing up as well. Um. Well, George Washington, you know, you know, Abraham Lincoln, you know, these people in the famous, with the famous white people. So it's a and you don't learn about, those, not really behind them, or what those who were working to becoming Americans, and building our nation and so forth, like, and enslaved, Indians, and women, and people at that. So, we're all sort of building that together. So, you don't, you don't hear that story. And again, and nothing against the educational system because those type of books weren't, they were probably there, but, you know, there wasn't sort of pushed forward, kind of thing. So, but I think it's important that we sort of bringing all that out, now. It's really it's really, really, really important thing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Have you

But again, with the asking the question. Yeah again, they yeah. Yeah, it's really fun how some people will come up, and I know what's coming, which is really neat. I take it. Yeah. Yeah, I'm sorry. Yeah,

You can, you can see, you can see that they're going to want to know, and they

And then they're trying to figure out how to ask. It's really good.

Do, is there is there a way to ask that is not going to be insulting in some way, do you think? Have you ever had that? Someone find a way to ask that is not going to be like, I'm not sure if it's possible, but.

Um, I don't know. I don't know. I, most, most people I mean, they come to Williamsburg and they know there goes, yeah, there is something, "I have to ask you a personal question," and they've come up and in different ways, they formalize it and yeah. But no, not the end and I'm tired person. Nothing really bothers me. I'm in that type of job and the role that I'm in, and the skin that I walk around in. So, after I'm living, I'm over 60 years old. So, after this time, I've got it. Yeah, whatever is this you can. Words can't hurt me at this point. So, only a, maybe a Big Mac and a large fry or something, I don't know, that'll at this age will hurt me.

So, you mentioned that you want Williamsburg to do more. Have you seen, do you think in your time working there, you've seen things change at all with, you know, how much interpretation, they have and representing enslaved people,

Sure.

Native Americans in the area? How has that changed you think over time?

It's changed a lot. They have a wonderful, well. They have more classes for us learning about the, the other half of Williamsburg. And it has changed and it's still changing. We're still evolving and we're, we're learning more and more, we, um. Yeah, we have a whole Native American Department. Those guys are awesome, those women and men are awesome there. Um. They, I ask questions to them about stuff and they're like, yeah, you know, then and they're on it, you know, so it's really, really a neat thing. You have a woman's, um, ladies, that some of the ladies that I work with here on a woman's panel, learning more about that. I just read a really cool article. You might like, actually. There's a lady who works here, her name is Wren and she wrote this really, she, she wrote this really neat article on I forget, sex. The women who weren't men, men who weren't women, kind of thing in the 18th century, like the LGBT movement. She wrote this and she's on a panel here. So Colonial Williamsburg, they have a panel for that now, and, and that was a really neat thing. She, she, I was just reading it and it was really cool. And when I see her in the street, I'm gonna say, "Hey, that was awesome." If she did, what, she did a nice watercolor, And she was talking about the clothing at this time they would make them wear for because their gender, they weren't a woman, they weren't a man, right? And they're talking about the, the and that was really, really neat. They had that in the 18th century. Earlier on people were just killed for being queer, right? You know, they were just, you know, they were just different. They were isolated or queer or executed, whatever. So, but that was really neat what she, with what she wrote about that. And, and London they had these people. But Williamsburg is evolving and, and we have these different classes, and groups set up to address that, right? So yeah, I think more colleges are getting into that as well. You know, you have to, you know, everybody's, everybody's not Tom Cruise, so yeah, so, sorry, you probably. It's obvious. He's, he's, he's perfect. Yeah, um,

Um. Do you, do you see that in, like, the actual interpretations that Williamsburg puts on, especially with, you know, the interpretations of actual enslaved individuals? Do, have you seen that sort of change to emphasize more, more on the enslaved people, as opposed to, you know, the white population?

More people are talking about it, you know. Again, they have to. We have a whole site setup for at the Peyton Randolph house and that's where you go and learn that, because of household was, almost of the house was enslaved, so that's where the enslaved people. I have, I have had some African American guests, who have come in and they see me and they talk to you, kind of and they go "Hey, where're all the black people," you know, "Oh go to the Peyton Randolph House," you know, kind of thing, you know, they talk about, you know. We used to have a Great Hopes site where it's like a little Plantation out there, and these used talk about the enslaved people and all that there, but they I guess the funding of that ran out for that particular thing they were doing out there. But that was a good place to send people to because you could see people who are, they were, they were, they were far more things like enslaved people would do, like, on a plantation and all their people with their talk about it, you know. Some people wanted to see that but the funding sort of went up from that. So, but right now they have the Peyton Randolph House that on a smaller scale, it's all sort of condensed there. So, they are looking at that and then a courthouse, they talk about, they have trials where an enslaved person is on trial. They have, these are from actual records and all so that's a pretty cool thing. So that's good. Yeah, and from when I first started here until now, it's sort of taking baby steps. Well, you can't really sort of just go in there and, and but things are coming up. Looks good, and it's moving, more to go.

Do you, like, or is there anything in particular you would want to add, like, that you think would be more influential or more impactful in that realm?

Mmm. I don't know. I don't know. They're working on it more. Yeah, more and, and with the economic situation we're in, its, you know, I can dream big, but, you know, they have the town, have 52 percent of the Town up walking around, you know, and and, and, and portraying it like it was in the 18th century. But that's, that's, that's, that's, that's pipe dream. The, um, we're don't know it's a, we're getting there, slowly. We got, we got Adam on the, on the wagon out there going around, so he's a good face for Williamsburg. Yeah, I don't know if you were here last time and saw him driving around. And he's awesome. Yeah,

Yeah, I was told he is, he is the, everyone's favorite carriage driver.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Do, so, you've said you don't, you don't talk about politics and like what's going on like modern politics in the interpretations and everything. But do you see politics playing a role in, you know, Williamsburg in interactions with people or in people's questions to you? Like slyly or very, very upfront?

No, I can't think of any. Yeah, I can't think of any there. There are people who walk in now with, uh, because of what we're going through presently. And it's only a few days until the election and their people come in with their whatever garb on that they have, I don't know your particular look political affiliation, but they come in and they're all there. So. I have to talk to them like anybody else. And, um, and I, you know, I talked to him like anybody else there, you know, very nice people, but we were, I don't, I don't, I don't do, you know, they weren't. Everybody's very nice and nobody's here to fight and talk politics or anything, but they, they do wear their polit, political stuff, you know, so, which is fine, you know, where I don't mind. Well, it's okay. Yeah, one, one, one day, I'll tell you story there earlier on there's this, we had a school group and they were all teenagers basically, like, a high school group. And they all came, they were all in Washington, like, the day before, and they all were wearing these hats. They all were buying the hats and they came in, and they were kind of ruly {sic}, you know, so I said, I said, "This is the silversmith's shop. There's the exit." And I so they came in, and I don't know, they, they sort of were on my one last good nerve. I don't know what it was, but I sort of dismissed them. I'd yeah, and. But in retrospective, I should have talked to them. I mean I, you know, but I should have talked to them, because, at that age. And that after I thought about it I said, you know, and my interpretation wasn't that short, actually, but I said I should have said, I should have talked to them. Maybe, maybe, maybe one or two would have listened to what I had to say. Some of them, you know, at that age. I don't know, they're just, they are on a school trip, and says they're not. I should have taken that opportunity to at least reach one, kind of thing. Yeah, and I said that was the one me, and I won't let that happen again. That was, like. But, but this particular morning I said, "There's the exit," that's and, and like I said, it was just, it was just, it was just me at the time but. But in retrospect if I have to do it again, I would do it differently. Right? I don't know, I don't know if I'd answer your guess a little story that,

No, that's great. That's yeah. Yeah, so actually, what I'm trying to, you know, that okay. Yeah, but please. Yeah,

But again, like I said, I would do that differently. So, when I wouldn't do that again, so yeah, but because that's and. And I thought about it. I says, you know, they, they all just thought the hats were cool and they all had them on, you know. And some of them didn't realized, you know, they, you know, so as I can. Yeah. I could have

That do you think that they, I'm not sure how I want to ask this, or do you think that, that kind of changes, maybe even subconsciously changes, not maybe this particular experience, because we've all had that like last nerve. Oh, this is exactly what you don't need right now, especially in, like, in talking with people. But do you think like seeing a hat or something might make you in this case you, you wish if you could go back you. You had, you know, try to try to get through to. Does that change your interpretation?

Yes. Well, just like last week. They had a rally down just near us and so we saw a lot of the people who came for that here in Williamsburg, and, and they, and, and, and, like I said there, and I go on I talked to them about try to put it in, I try to talk to them about enslaved people and how that started maybe, you know, and so most, maybe people listen, you know, so whether it's soaks in or not, or whether it doesn't mean anything to them or whatever, they have it. The seed is there, kind of thing. So, I think it's important. Like, I said, if I could go back and with that group of kids, and say that and just, like, I said, just reach one and then, and then, but I still have those, you know, they have the hat on, and they're like, they don't even give you eye contact. You can tell they're like, you know, waiting to get out, you know, so, which is, which is, which is fine, you know. That's, that's, that's their thing. But I look for the guy goes, "Okay. Yeah, let's, this. This, this, this talk. And that's the whole thing about it is, we can get along, and, and talk about it, and, and some don't know. I mean, you know, like, I said, they're, you know, they don't know they, you know, "Would you have been here," kind of thing." Yes," you know, so, and they don't, they have to ask a question. So, I think it's, it's getting better. I think from that point, from what my little, I have little audience at a time, a couple of, three hours a day. I talked to people and then, again, they want to come in here about silversmithing. But yet, they do see me in, and I, and I give them a good talk too, they move along. There's the exit. Welcome, there's the exit, but here's a little education. So yeah.

Yeah. How important do you think having diversity within those employed in Williamsburg is to bringing in diverse audiences?

It's important. Absolutely. It's important. Here, here in Williamsburg. I'm called, I'm called a front, front line, Adam and I were Frontline employees. So, we talk to the guests, and we're the, we're the, they say one of the reasons people come here to see us, is, is the talks with interpreters. Where do you find most of the African American people working at Colonial Williamsburg is behind the scenes like waiters and, and bus help, and, and people who clean your rooms, and things like that. And so, they have a tough time. I've had talked, I have a friend that works in the waiting tables at CAD at one of the taverns. So, they dress like I do, but they're a waiter, and they don't, they're not acting like that, you know, they're working on tips and all. And he said he would get questions to where your "Oh, you one of the, you one of the good slaves?", you know, he's like "Geeze." You know, so he has to sort of, sort of play, you know, "I'm not, I'm your waiter, and don't say that again because I'm handling your food." So, and people don't know they have been, some people do it to think they're playing along, or funny or something. I don't know what it is. And, and even he was telling me, like, some of their, the people that work with them. They will look at us working here on the front line and, like, some of my colleagues who portray slaves or enslaved people, and there's sort of a, there's sort of a friction of that, if you can imagine, because. And, and I look at it when they come up to me and they says, "Oh you're, you're a slave," and I says, "No, I'm not a slave, you know, but slaves need to be heard," you know. Everybody had a role. And I do the education. I do history thing with them. Within those, those guys across the way, they're waiters and all. They don't, they don't see that. So, they look at us like, you know, you shouldn't be portraying enslaved people shouldn't be portraying slaves, you know, as we're, they treating us like slaves over here now, you know, kind of thing. So, we have that friction with some of the people who work over there, like, some of the older people. So, I remember going over there and had this older black man, look at me, and he's, like, looking at me up and down because I'm in costume, and he's shaking his head. And I was like, "Oh geeze," now I had to, you know, what? What do I have to. I'm not, I don't want, you know, I'm not going to, you're older man, and I'm not going to sit here and try to educate you on why the story needs to be told, because he doesn't want to hear it, you know. He's just looking at, you know, it's too soon or something. I don't know, but, but, but we have it, we sort of have it both ways. Does that make sense? Yeah, but we have it, have it both ways. They are so, but that even now is, that was years ago, but that even now is sort of going by the wayside, because, I think, that older generation, white or black, they are, I mean, because a younger generation is coming up to where, you know, that stuff is being phased out, you know, kind of thing. Which it needs to be, because we got more stuff to focus on than fighting each other because of , because of the color of our skin, you know. And that's by, that's only my opinion, but we have a lot more stuff to worry about than fighting each other, and together, you know, we could do a lot of things and you spend time fighting at yourselves, and together we could get together and solve some other problems we have. And that, I'm sorry I sound like I'm preaching now, but, but, but that's the way I have to look at it, with, you know, when you hear things like that from the other side here. And what I'm doing as a job to try to educate people the best way I can about 18th century silversmithing and the role that I'm playing here, because I do get those kind of, kind of questions. And maybe that is kind of political, right? I don't know, you know, but I'm not you know, and then it's a point where I just stop, because, again, you know, that's only my opinion. But thank goodness, there's some people that think like I do so, that's a good thing. Yeah. So, and if everybody thought like I did, how boring would this world be, you know? "Oh, you think like me all the time?" Yeah. So.

What, how does it make you feel to take on, you know, this responsibility. I mean the, you don't have the same, you know, you might not have the same emotional, or the same, the same weight as someone who is portraying an enslaved person, but, like, there's still going to be a an impact on you when you're taking on this, this role as a, as an interpreter in this setting. How does it make you feel basically?

It's okay and somebody has to do it. It's, it's, it's important, right? You would have to have a bit of a thick skin to handle that, I think, I think. Nothing, nothing really bothers me. Some people are not patient about it, I guess, or. But it I think it, it, it's important. I think that's from my upbringing, from my parents. Like I said earlier, I was sort of sheltered and I wasn't taught to hate or to look at anyone differently because of what color they were, or what they look like, or whatever like this. So, I think that's important. I think I get that from my, my upbringing, um, which, which I think, I love my parents for that. I think it's very important for that to not, teach me that. I, you know, I so again, you know, children aren't born and "Hey." You're taught that kind of stuff, right? So that's, it's all your upbringing and all and so I think it's important to, to. Most people and I like I said most of my audience, like 95% of people are really, really interested in what we do here in about history. Not only about silversmithing but enslaved people and everybody else that came along with it, kind of thing, so. I think we do a pretty good job at it. That good, make sense?

Yeah.

Alright sometimes I sound like I'm just rambling here.

I mean that we're just trying to get your experience and it

Sure. Sure. Sure.

it can be hard to get that from your mind in two words.

Sure.

Just a couple more questions before we wrap up. Um. W hat let's see the, let's see, um. Is there anything in particular, we sort of already touched on this a little bit, but, that you would, with unlimited resources in this dream, dream world, that you would change with the silversmithing interpretation, like, whether to, to be more open to showing the representation there, and that there were black people working there, whether slave or free? Or just in general that you would change with the silversmithing?

Not, not really. I get, again, we're working on that. Our shop is sort of represented. Well, I'm being an African American person that can talk about that, and we have two women who work here. So, people will, again, people come in and one of the ladies is working here and they goes "Oh, would you have been here," kind of thing. And then they have to, they talk about women, you know, and the trades, so that's a good opportunity. So, I think we have a good diverse shop here. We have sort of all the spectrums kind of thing. What we need is a Native American person here, maybe, and you know, and a black woman working here. That'd be awesome, and everybody would be sort of represented here. But because everybody did this type of work. But we, um, and it's really neat, because sometimes they were in the shop, it's myself and one of the ladies. There are a couple of ladies working here in the shop. One time we have three lady engravers, Lynn who was an engraver. So, there's three ladies and myself and it's really neat how some people walk in and they'll come in and look around for the white guy. Right? And so, and "Oh, you're looking for the silversmith, huh?" I go, "There, she is right there," kind of thing and that really floors some people. Oh, yeah. So, yeah, and, and always kid with them if I'm in the shop. And people walk in and they say "What, were there women back then?" I go, "No, there were no women back then. It was all men. That's why we were advancing here, right? Everything's good. Huh? So, what do you think?" So, they all, like, laugh, you know, goes, "Well, you know what I mean," is but yes and then it poses a question though, you know, and some people don't know how to ask the question and so, but that's a, it's that's, that's really neat. My not yet again, as long as you say it with a smile. Yeah, so and so they're like, "Oh, yeah," but, but, but, but they'll ask a question. So, with our shop, and I think more shops are getting more diverse about getting the people in the shop, all kinds of people working here in shops, I think of doing a good job.

Is there anything that you would change more generally about Williamsburg related to or not related to representation?

Right. Huh? I don't know. That, not really. Yeah, so, I think they're, I think we have a, we have a new president here, which is really neat. He seems to be focused on, well and with, with in spite of what we're going through now, and sort of put a slam the door on kind of things that he was working on. But I think we're in a good direction. I can't see anything that I would change right now. I can't think of anything right now with change about the place, say maybe try to get more funding, of course. Everybody wants some money, money, money. money. money. So, but other than that, I can't think of really anything. I would change it. A great job here. You got to come back down and see us again.

Oh, I, well, yeah, I have my season pass. So,

You know Adam, Adam will give you a ride for free. You know that, don't you?

He told me that. Yeah.

Well Adam, Adam definitely. Yeah that way you

He told me I am not allowed to buy a ticket for the carriage, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah exactly. That's great.

Okay, just one more, and this may be a difficult question or be very easy. Is there anything you wish I had asked or that you wanted to talk about?

{laugh} No, not really. No. No. I think we covered everything that I have to that is. Yeah, no, not really.

Alright, then in closing, I just wanted to thank you for taking the time to speak with me today. And I think I learned a lot from our discussion. I'm really excited for other people to be able to watch and listen and hear what you have to say about your experience, and Williamsburg and

Okay.

everything. So, thank you so much. And, um

Okay. Sure. I have your letter here. I have yet to send you with the contract thingy. It's in my file here. And I was just looking as, as well. I got to send that. I'll do that today.

Okay.

Right.

Yeah. Okay. I will stop the recording. Thank you so much.

Okay.