Tara Nolan Interview, October 12, 2020

I think we're recording now. Okay, so today's date is October 12, 2020. And the time is 5:06 p.m. Eastern Time. This is Mia Owens interviewing Tara Nolan. And since it's online, I am interviewing from Birmingham, Alabama. And Tara, where are you interviewing from?

I'm interviewing from New York City.

Great. And do I have your permission to record this interview?

Yep.

Alright

You, sure do.

Well, thank you. So I guess the first question I want to ask you is, where were you born?

Yes, I was born according, well I'm pretty sure--confident I was born in Ningbo, China, which is south of Shanghai. And I'm also adopted from there.

Great. And could you tell me, where did you grow up?

Yes, I grew up on the East Coast of the United States down in Maryland, in a suburb called Columbia, which is right in between Baltimore City and Washington, D.C., lived there from when I was the age of four until 26.

All right, and could you tell me a little bit about like, what the neighborhood was like where you were growing up?

Sure. My neighborhood personally, where I grew up with my family was a pretty nice suburb, I would say there was a fair amount of diversity. Actually, we had a lot of families from different ethnic backgrounds that lived in our neighborhood, as well as in the community itself. Colombia is actually known as one of the top developed communities in the United States, it's been ranked pretty high for education standards, as well as just the community itself. There's, I believe, about 23, 24, outdoor pools in the community and four indoor pools four gyms, and no billboards, which is like a little fun fact, because the founder of the suburb, wanted to really keep that out of the city, I guess, of the suburb, too. And the location was really nice, too, because it was about 20 [minute] drive from where my family live, to get to the airport in Baltimore. And Baltimore is known for, I think, the Inner Harbor, but also does have its own little communities, which I think are more predominantly black. And then Washington, D.C. was about a train ride away. We would have to get on the, we would have to drive to the subway station, and then you can get into the city via the metro. And so I would say I was very much exposed in the neighborhoods, I was in with a lot of diversity, ethnic, ethnicity wise, and just different types of personalities, too.

So if you grew up around other Asian American families?

I did a little bit because I also was involved with a Chinese dance class group that my, I guess my mom found it or somebody found it. And there was a lot of Asian Americans in there and a couple other Chinese adoptees. And yes, Asian Americans, too, because we had somebody who's Japanese American, too, who was a part of the group. And yes, so I would say a lot of Asian American families.

Yeah. Did you--how did you relate with those communities being adopted? Do you think? Like, was it like different than you think it would have been if you weren't had not been adopted? Or you also mentioned there's some, also some adoptees there also, but could you, I guess, just comment on that kind of experience?

I would say with Asian American families, a lot of the ones that I interacted with usually had like a mixed mother or father. So I guess I should specify that it's the mother was white and the father was Chinese or would be the reverse of that. So it didn't really feel very different. Outside of what I experienced with where both my parents are white, essentially. And I don't think it really set me apart from them being an adoptee I think the only way that there was a difference was with the language. So going to Chinese school, for instance, or when language was spoken in their households, and I visited them, it was pretty common that the father or mother who were Chinese, would be speaking to their children also in Mandarin, as well. And in my household, where I grew up, my parents didn't really speak Mandarin pretty fluently. So I think it's only the language thing that became very apparent, but Oh, you're not really here in that Asian American life because a lot of American Born Chinese individuals or Asian Americans, I know they speak their native language at home and usually, yeah, out with their family. And then they'll speak English of course.

Gotcha. Did that ever make you like want to maybe learn like an Asian language? Or did you feel like you were missing out on something by not knowing a different language like that?

I would say my experience might be similar to a lot of adoptees that even I've spoken with where when you're at that age of being, when you're at the age of elementary school, so I want to say like six years old to 17 years old. My interest personally wasn't as strong, I would go to school on the weekends on Saturdays, and I picked up a fair amount of Mandarin because I can actually understand a fair amount of what's going on. It's more the speaking part of it, that was hard, and didn't stay consistent. But now, currently, presently, I would like to learn a little bit more of Mandarin, just because it's kind of nice to be able to, like speak back to these people. Of course, I think, during the teenage years, in puberty, it was a lot harder to not be able to speak Chinese, when people would say, hey, you should be able to speak Chinese, or I think there was a common, it's a common microaggression. I think a lot of Chinese adoptees or Asians face too with it, oh, you don't speak the language. Because even if we do speak the language, I think there's always some sort of underlying judgment or some sort of other feeling that the people wanted to express, but they didn't. So it's like, nobody can win. And so when I was younger, I was definitely more aware that I wasn't speaking. But I actually did retain a lot and understand quite a bit now. And then present day, I have interest in learning and speaking more. And it doesn't really affect me when people ask like, Oh, you don't really know the language. It's like now but I'm here. And I'm just glad to be here and talk in English, but all it's like, I can understand you and respond in English.

Yeah, that's super cool that you can understand, though, to a certain extent.

Um-hm.

I guess this is backtracking a little bit. But you said that you attended a Chinese dance group? How long did you do that? For what ages?

I did the dance group when I was four. So when I got to the United States, which I think was wonderful to basically be immersed in that group right away until 15 years old. Because after 15 years old, I was in high school involved with the theater group or the theater program there. And the timing was a little bit difficult, because like I was involved with all the theater stuff, it would take a lot of time. And by the time I stopped doing the dancing, I was also I think just trying to like be more social with people in high school where I went to school versus the like students because I didn't see everybody in the dance group outside of the dance group. So I was like, Oh, well, if I'm involved with the high school activities, I know I can see these people and be more involved. Mostly. But I loved I love the group too. I current present tense, I still love that I did the group. It's a lot of fun.

Yeah, could you tell me a little bit more about like, what kind of dance you guys did? And like how that worked?

Yes, the basis. So the founder of the group is called. It's called Hua Sha Chinese dance. And I don't know if they're still around presently, there might be other groups that have been formed as a result of it, like some students who participate in the group became adults, or some adults who participated then founded their own like groups too. I think this is one of the first maybe in Colombia, I want to say, but yes, so the foundation was ballet. So we learned a lot of like ballet movements, I guess, the core principles of those. And then the dances we did were essentially inspired by different areas of China. So all the dances would be called by the region or area that they were from, like we had a Tibetan dance with like really long sleeves. And we had a dance called the Xin Jiang dance from like the very small community of Xinyang. But yes, we had a lot of traditional dances to them may be I want to say it's from like the main area of so like Mainland China to like not so remote parts like in the far north or south or east. So I guess, to backtrack a little bit is like we would do dances that were traditional and like the mainland China, probably like Han influence, and then also some dances that were from like the really small areas in China as well.

Gotcha, Did you have a favorite dance style that you did?

I really found the fan dance and the ribbon dance to be a lot of fun, which include the props of course with like the fan movements, and then the ribbon which it just looked really cool. But I would say yes, my favorite were the ones with like the fan and the ribbon. They were they were the easiest to, it just kind of looks cool that you could do like I figure 8 with the ribbon or something. And then the fans are just beautiful. They're beautiful. I mean, they're like wooden and then the cloth and then the cloth goes beyond the fan too. So it's like a longer wave. Sometimes it was used for--I know one dance that adults did when I was a teenager they had, it was like a flower, it was very inspired by like lotuses and lilies. So there are different color fans for like the water were blue, like a light blue, and then some of the flowers or the lotuses were like the pink fan. So it was really cool. Just to see all the different colors, personally.

And what kind of performances did you guys do? What's it like for the public? Or was it mainly for family?

It was for the public, it was for public, we would be involved in sometimes showcases for like around the holidays, New Year's, Chinese New Year, the Lunar New Year, I should say. And then we also I think we participated in competitions a couple times. I don't remember them very well. But a lot of it was primarily for like family, for public too. Which was really cool.

Yeah, that's such a cool experience. Um, let's see, I guess this is gonna be backtracking even more again. Let's see. So you said that you were adopted at the age of four, correct?

Yes.

Okay. Do you remember anything about when you were living in China? Is that too, before? I guess too young to remember?

Oh, yeah. I don't remember anything from when I was adopted at four. And I'm kind of bummed because it would have been nice to remember something. But I guess like memory works in a way that not necessarily many people have memories until they're a little bit older. Even I think the earliest I've heard is like, five and a half, six years old. Yeah, I'm trying to think even back to my earliest memory that I have. And it may be fabricated based on what my family has told me like, oh, when you were this age, and with the pool or like learning English, but with China, no, not at all and, kind of bummed but it's okay. It's probably better. I don't anyway.

So when that your family adopted you? Did you were able to speak any Chinese language or were you still kind of developing that?

I was told that I was speaking like a dialect from my region. So, of course, I don't remember the dialect. But yeah, I was speaking apparently in a dialect to my family. And my dad actually studied Mandarin, when they decided to adopt from China. And I think my dad wouldn't be able to help sort of translate and facilitate what I needed, what was going on. But at the same time with the dilect, he didn't he didn't understand that either. But I think not long after getting back into the United States, I think I came in April of 1998. That sounds right, April 1998. And the school year starts in September, October. So basically, May, June, July, August. So for four months, I saw my mom had done what, like an accelerated learn English program for me, which I'm grateful for, too, because I didn't have to, like state back behind. If anything, I ended up being one of the younger people in my grade above sort of deal. Which was nice. Yeah, so to answer that question, I don't remember the dialect at all. (Sirens in background) But I spoke a dialect initially.

Gotcha. Could you tell a little bit more about your parents decision to adopt? What, I guess what lead them to decide to go through the process?

Yes, so I believe, so my parents had two sons, before they decided to adopt, we're all actually four years apart each in age. And I have two older brothers, they they wanted to have a daughter as like a third child. And of course, genetic science, that's not always guaranteed that you're gonna have a girl or boy. And also, my parents were getting a little bit older. And I, they wanted to, this is what I've been told. And this is what I'm sort of guessing based on my experience, too, that they wanted somebody who was like a little bit older versus having an infant because we had an infant. (Sirens in background) I think the age difference would have been even more between each of us. So it's like if I hadn't been adopted at four would be like eight years between the youngest child and the middle brother and then the oldest. And I think I believe originally. Oh, sorry. I live right by a fire station and a hospital. Fire station , yes, and a hospital. So there's a lot of sirens, which is really sad because COVID of course. I'm sure that will be documented in this time. Yeah. So getting back to the question, my parents, I believe were originally adopted from Russia, that was the initial--they had started the process. And I believe that didn't work out. So it ended up being that my father was like, Oh, we could adopt from China, I believe, like, there's a process for that can happen to so my dad actually started the process in the search for adopting from China. And I believe it worked out. Again, this is what I'm told, because I'm older I was, I was four. And since they didn't want an infant, it was a little bit easier to adopt a toddler versus an infant for them, which then resulted in me coming. So yeah.

Um, what was your relationship like? Or I guess what is your relationship like with your brothers? Since you guys are kind of spread out by age a little bit?

Oh, yes. So funny. Because I always ask, adoptees this question like, What's your relationship like with your family or your siblings, if you have siblings, so it's spinning it back on me. Growing up, I want to say we all weren't terribly close, especially because the biggest is between my brother, my oldest brother and I, we're eight years apart, and my middle brother, and it's like, is right in between us, he is a little bit quieter, just his personality is a little bit quieter. And my oldest brother has a very, like, louder personality, I want to say. So growing up, it doesn't feel like we were all very close. And to this day, presently, I don't think we're all very close. I feel like if something serious were to happen, we would be there for the other one. We don't like call and message consistently and talk casual, which is kind of a bummer. But it's really, at this point, I'm sort of just accepting of that what the current circumstance is for all of us. And in a year, two years, it can change. But for now, I'm like, it's okay. I'm good with that. Because growing up, I would try. I think it was the younger sibling act or decision to try and do what your older siblings were doing too. So because my older brother, who's four years older, he was a senior in high school when I became a freshman, and I wanted to sort of do what he was doing in a sense. So I did the theater stuff. And I learned a lot from it, I could have totally done a different activity. And even when I did the theater stuff, like I didn't get much from that relationship. So like, all right, well, it is what it is. I tried to you know, bond closer, and it didn't work out. But alright, so it goes. But I laugh about it, because it is funny. Now it's because I think about this sometimes like I guess I could have done dance, for instance, like I totally could have done dance versus the theater. But I wanted to really connect with my brother and didn't work out that way. However, I learned a lot from the dance, or the theater experience, too. So I don't regret it at all. And I don't regret my relationship with my brothers. I don't think--it's beyond my control exactly how that works. Because it's their own decisions to how we all bond. So, yeah, it's a bummer a little bit, but I'm like learning it's okay. It is what it is. Give and take.

Yeah, I guess on the same note, like how do you view your relationship with your parents? Is it a little bit different than with your brothers?

Yes, yes. So for the longest time, I felt that I was I was definitely more open with my parents like I would speak more with them. I know, throughout high school. I'm sure many of us go through this to hopefully and I know I did was like the angsty period, and like being so angry and everything and I was. And then, through college, I think we I was a little I became a little bit closer to my parents because the distance helped and being able to talk to them. I went on a trip with my dad to China, I've been on a trip with my mom by myself. And it was like a pretty good relationship. I want to say it's only recently during this pandemic, that our relationship has kind of become a little bit more a strain now because I think someone was saying exhaustion. I was talking with somebody who's like, yeah, I really do think it's exhaustion and just in my family it feels like they tend to not necessarily always talk about what's bothering somebody. I don't know, if everybody really communicates what bothers them. Sometimes I think it's just sort of like held, they hold it to themselves and not communicate. And I learned that too, which from my family that if I had an issue, I wouldn't exactly talk about it. I would sort of hold it and then it would explode which is a rough way to do things and community. So I want to say my relationship, my parents was really good up until the pandemic where an explosion, quote unquote, did pretty much happen. And I essentially left for my own accord because it's like, I need to like be, I need to look out for what I need to do for me which caused a little bit of a strain. That is still there for now. I mean, I haven't heard from my dad, in since it happened, which I think was about three months ago, it was May it was Memorial Day, May 25, 2020. Memorable day that it happened. And it's almost October 25. So oh, yeah, okay, we're getting into six months. Well, I keep saying three months, my relative time. But it's almost been half a year. And this is new for I think, myself and my parents with my, their relationship to me being a little bit more distant, which is kind of it is what it is again. Um, but I'm sure I do know, like, I do know, they care and love me. So it's like, it helps to know that I do hear from my mom occasionally. Well, she'll send a message like don't forget to get your flu shot or don't like--do this or do that, you know, the mom things like mom stuff. But as far as like talking about my adoption, or getting more into like, deeper conversation about relationships with my brothers, it's not a great time. So, yeah, again, I hope with time that will heal everybody. And we'll be able to like, find common ground and be able to talk to one another. But for now, best to just let that be like, let's not poke the situation and make it worse.

Yeah, I guess. So from previous conversations, you talked about you starting a podcast, and have they been, I guess, expressed interest in what you've been doing with that or listen to it?

Oh, so I started the podcast in April. So like a month before that happen? And I had told my dad about it. He's like, okay, that's, like, enjoy. Basically, he kind of didn't ask me any questions about it. And then I told my mom, and she's like, Oh, I think that's a really good thing to do for like getting other skill sets and learning other things. But then when things went down in May, she kind of said, I shouldn't be doing this. So I was like, Alright, well, that's really hard to hear, too. I don't know why I feel that way. And she said, Well, since you've been doing this, it seems like you're much more angry and annoyed easily. And it's like, well, actually, I'm really more angry and annoyed easily not because of this project. I'm more angry, annoyed because of other things external to this. So I want to say right now, there is no interest from my family. That's okay, because I'm not doing it for them doing it for me at the end of the day. And I've sort of in this other roundabout way, as I have sort of found like another family from doing the podcast. Although I feel like I found more of a family from somebody I met before I even did the podcast, as well.

Yeah, I guess for the sake of the record, can you share a little bit about your podcast and why you started it?

Yes. So the podcast is called Adopted Babies from China or ABC for short. The purpose of the podcast is to connect Chinese adoptees to other Chinese adoptees. And so the name comes from--in America, there's a common slang of like American Born Chinese, ABC. So I did a play on that with Oh, because I would joke sometimes, like I am an ABC an adopted baby from China. It's also very clear what it is. So if you're searching for Chinese adoptees or something, it should pop up as something that you could see like, Oh, this is Chinese adoptees. But really what--all it is, is I interview adoptees, and we just talk. I talk about their interests, what they're doing. A lot of adoptees will speak about projects they worked on and how they connected adoption to their life. And I even expanded to go beyond just the US too. I it's really exciting to speak with adoptees and other areas of the world too. So, but of course, the focus is Chinese adoptees solely. And it can be listened to through like Apple, Spotify, Google, a lot of the major podcast platforms. And I use an app that distributes it, so it's really efficient. I record on there and then I'll edit in my own device. The reason I really wanted to start the podcast because I've sort of had this idea of starting the podcast for a while. I want to say more than a year, I was like, Oh, it'd be kind of interesting to have a podcast about Chinese studies. Because there are podcasts about like Asian Americans, Asian Australian, Asian European, like there's definitely different podcasts out there. But, and then there are podcasts for adoptees, I think more in a general sense. And then like Asian adoptee podcasts, there's that too. And I thought all I want to only talk about us, make it about us, us Chinese adoptees. And that was why I decided to start it. And for me, sometimes when I decide to start something, I really go all in like, really commit to it and like decide. So I did the name, the artwork and everything. And also part of starting at two is because of my friend Katie, who is a fellow Chinese adoptee as well. And we found out from the same orphanage two and a half years ago. She had posted in a Facebook group for Chinese adoptees, CCI International [China's Children International], or CCI adoptees only group. Have you heard of it? Um, okay. Cool. I was like, yeah. But she had posted in there, she went to China. And then she posted in there. And I think about six or seven months later, I somehow found it on the post. And this was like right after I turned 25. And I wanted to connect more with like being an adoptee just all of a sudden, I was like, I really would like connect with being an adoptee, let's learn more. But she posted about her trip to China and said she was from Ningbo. And that's how the connection really started. I reached out to her. And I found out after we started talking, pretty consistently too, she and she's been writing a memoir for her experience as a Chinese adoptee. And I actually had the opportunity to read some of it. And while reading, it was like, this is really fascinating to like, read it about your experience, I think it'd be great for other people to be able to, like hear each other's experiences in a forum, such as like writing. So we do have all those social media groups on Facebook. But I think sometimes you can lose content while reading that there's so much going on so much posting, and it's like, overwhelming. And I have been listening to podcasts for probably like five plus years at this point. And it's like, Well, I think it'll be nice to hear people talk about it to not just read what they're writing, let's also hear about it. And so I was really inspired by Katie's memoir, like her writing, reading her draft. So she's actually in the intro to the podcast as you listen to it, because you have me speaking, and then you have somebody else sort of like an echo. She's actually the other voice that's in it. And so it's like, it's very nice to have that as well. But that was the main reason I was really inspired was like reading somebody else's experiences like, man, where are other resources where we can read about the Chinese adoptee experience? I mean, you have memoirs out, I know, there's what's that book, All You Could Ever Know about the Korean adoptee? Nicole Chung, I think is her name. And then the books on like Chinese adoption, and resources that we have available. All were very, like nonfiction based, very factual. This is what's going on. This is what happened, like you had the one-child policy, of course, and then you have documentaries. So it was like, Okay, I think these are all very helpful. I do appreciate the resources too. But what about on a personal level like learning about that other person, and what they're interested in? I have, I just didn't see that. So that's why I was like, Oh, I would really love to have something available. And that's essentially how the podcast came to be. So it was really the I think the name was probably the second thing that came up. First, it was the design. Probably, maybe, I'm gonna say it was like, they sort of went in tandem, I guess. And I had some very funny like, early designs with like babies on it. And it's like, this looks weird. So the design of the podcast, too, is it's kind of the reverse of the Chinese flag. It's like, instead of the red base, it's yellow. And the stars are red versus yellow. And I looked it up, I was like, I'm pretty sure I can do this. I don't think it's like copyright infringement, or anything the name wasn't taken by anybody. Anyone and so I should be good. And so far, haven't heard it from anybody that I can't be doing this. And it's all, right now it's all--I don't monetize from the podcast at all. I know, that's a thought that maybe I could at some point later, but for now, it's really become like a passion project. And truly, it's actually becomes the only consistent thing that's been going on for the past six months during this pandemic. I've had podcasts like Oh, I have the schedule of interview, meet people, record, edit, and like having that consistency has really helped during this time, too, so it was a very long answer to your question.

No, no that's all great. I guess the other question I have is, since you have been able to do a couple of interviews over the past six months, are there any, I guess, is there anything that you feel like, has been really impactful for you about it other than I guess the things you've mentioned, or that you've learned from the people you've spoken with?

Yes, I would say, because in the beginning, I was reaching out to people, I was being my own, like PR and marketing person to find interviewees. And so it was all like a learning experience to all of that. I have a little bit of like that experience on a professional level is very helpful to learn, like how to market and like reach out to people. But then actually speaking with people, and I feel I have a very good skill set of like remembering people's names and their faces. Like that's a really good skill set. I think it comes in handy. And also, I think, I have I've discovered my skill set professionally with being able to, like facilitate conversation or like move things along as well. Specifically, speaking to people I found I've, I have found very impactful to just talk with other adoptees to learn like, Oh, what do you like to do? Has your adoption really affected that? Or like, if it wasn't adoption, do you think you would still feel this way? Like those kind of conversations it's almost like a therapy in a way for me and for that other person when we speak like sometimes we'll touch on topics that a lot very sensitive, but because like another adoptee is asking if they feel I think sometimes adoptees feel more open to talk about it. I know one interviewee I spoke with is Lilly Fei, who's had a YouTube channel, I think for a little bit over two years, maybe more. And she'll post videos of her alone, usually talking about different areas of like Chinese adoption or aspects of it. So it's kind of cool to be able to, like interview her (dog barking in background). And like hear her perspective, just in that setting. So it's all it's a it's kind of like another way to hear the same people you've heard, but just in a different format. And sometimes you might learn something new about them. Not always, but it's still nice. And it's in a way it's like reassuring to hear like, Oh yeah, you did go through that same experience that I'm feeling so it's very comforting that you also feel that way, to an extent of course. But I would say the most impactful thing is honestly like connecting with other adoptees like sort of forming a community. And it's what I kind of hinted at earlier with, like the family question. It's like, Okay, well, right now I know my family, my adoped family, parents, and brothers, we aren't close. But through speaking to adoptees, it's almost like I have found a sister in Katie or I'm finding another like family innocence with other adoptees because we all like can relate on that level with having that common ground. Like we don't have to talk about what's bothering us or why it bothers us, because we all know as adoptees, this is how we feel. So it helps.

How have you seen I guess like a difference between like talking with people who have been adopted? And then talking with people who have not been adopted about adoption?

Oh, okay. So if you asked me this question, like three--a month ago, I would have a different answer. But now it's really interesting to--because speaking with people who aren't adopted, but are Chinese. They have like a similar understanding to what we go through as well. So that's always a really insightful conversation to speak with people who are Chinese and aren't adopted, because they are curious. They're genuinely curious too. But they also share a lot of like the microaggressions that Asians feel. A big conversation that has come up is the Asians being targeted during this time to in a very negative way, physically, and emotionally like being assaulted essentially. So like speaking with other Chinese individuals about that, and being able to speak about adoption, they're actually learning a lot, too, from just our perspectives as adoptees of like, Oh, I see what you mean. And oh, like, it's not at all an issue that you don't speak the language. And it's a bummer that Chinese individuals will make you feel that way. And I guess, speaking with Chinese individuals, for me, personally, my experience has been sometimes similar to a lot of people like, Oh, I do feel like I'm being judged because I'm not speaking Chinese the way I should be, but at the same time, there's no way that I will ever be in that like Chinese level. It was somebody I was speaking with, who discovered the podcast through Instagram. She reached out to me, and she's a Chinese--I believe, she's in Singapore. And she found me through the Instagram, and we chatted for a good like two hours about just being Chinese and she told me her story a little bit, it was very helpful to talk with her too, because she gave me a lot of insight that I never thought of too. And I was like, Oh, okay, so speaking with Chinese people who I think had been abroad or don't live in China, or kind of moved out, they have like a, they have an understanding, and even Chinese people who have grown up in China, and then talk to an adoptee, they actually are just curious to I don't think it's not, it's not malicious. When they ask at least my view, it's like, I don't think they're being malicious. And then speaking to people who, so this is where I go, sort of the opposite end, but speaking with people about adoption, who are like white, or you know, like, not Chinese, basically not Asian. Sometimes I do feel a little bit of like, hyper-awareness of like, what they're asking and how they're asking it. Because and it's terrible to say, but it is because of like, the race or ethnicity too. Like, it's so apparent, like, you're white person asking me about my adoption? What is your intent behind asking these questions, and it's like, recently, just recently, I don't really come into those conversations with like a heightened awareness because I think that heightened awareness could result in a negative interaction. So I think when I was younger, it probably was more negative those interactions because when you're a kid, it's so much you're much more sensitive, I think, as a child. And then when we're older, speaking with people who are different, of course, that look different from us, well it's like, you know, it's not really fair to like put that judgment on them to when they also probably feel it from a different way. So speaking with people who aren't adopted and are not Chinese or Asian, I should say, it's definitely a lot more easier now than it has been before. And I don't know if that's a result of what has been going on with the pandemic with like Black Lives Matter too. It's just seems like people more and more people are open to like listening than they have been before, which is really sad, because we're in 2021. Like, we all should be okay, with, like talking about this stuff to each other. And I've been through, I want to say it's all relative, of course, but through the pandemic, too. I have been put, I have put myself into a couple of tough situations where, like, adoption has come up. And I've had a really bad interaction about it. And then I've had pretty good ones too. So it's like, people are just, we're all human. At the end of the day, we're all human. And really being able to, like, communicate and ask helps to know like, what is the intent of why you're asking this or that question to? Yeah, I would say that's the answer to that question is, as long as you like, communicate and going with like an open mind, it's definitely much more positive interactions than like negative.

Would you mind sharing any of like, I guess, your experiences where I guess they were positive or negative? Or--you don't have to answer that question if you don't want to.

Oh no, of course. I know. So I did go back to my orphanage. Two years ago. Yes. I went back to my orphanage. And I was like, the hotel we stayed in was like a very nice hotel. I stayed with my dad, it was a good experience. And we were leaving the hotel. So this is recent. We were leaving the hotel and the cleaning woman who was like in the front asked, like, you could tell she was curious. She just asked like, oh, like what's, who are you? What's going on? Basically, like, and then my dad explains like, Oh, this is my daughter. She's from here. But she came to the United States to live with me and my family. But she's my daughter. And the woman's like, Oh, you're so lucky. So that that conversation comes up a lot. And this is why I spoke a lot about with a woman from Singapore. But like, oh, man, this whole idea of like, You're so lucky. Coming from like a Chinese citizen, to me felt kind of negative, because I know there's a lot more to it and I don't think she meant it in that way of like, oh, like you should be grateful or anything. But it's to me that's like in a negative way. Because it's like, oh, well, who are you to say that I'm so lucky about this situation when you're a Chinese citizen. But then again, she was also a cleaner for this hotel. So like, I don't know her story either. So to me, that was like a negative experience in that sense. I don't really count things when we were kids because I think kids are just mean we all we all go through the like being made fun of for our appearance. And the irony is in present like as we get older and stuff people actually appreciate our beauty more then so but the irony of that too. But positive experience. So I did when I left my parents house and exactly have like a place to go stay it wasn't I didn't plan it out that way. Usually when you plan to like leave without a plan, usually when you plan it, I'll word that. Usually when you leave without a plan, it's not like you have all your ducks in a row, which I didn't. But through some through a connection, I was able to stay with a family, an American family. So it's like the father's actually half Vietnamese. And then the mom, I believe, has some like Spanish or European heritage, they have four kids. The four children are between the ages of 11 months to 11 years old. So four kids is a is a handful no matter what. But there that's such a prime age. For all of them. It's like from top from infant to toddler to preteen which I think are very strong developmental years for kids. But while I was there, the mom was very active and like speaking about Black Lives Matter, racism and everything going on presently. And why it's difficult, why we why it's like we should talk about this so that you guys are aware of what's going on. And when you get older, you can make these decisions yourself. But the topic of like my adoption didn't come up. And it was a very open discussions like Oh, like so your family is this and then like from kids, they're so honoest and so they're going to ask you all the questions, I took that to be like this is a positive experience, because their kids are very genuinely interested in what's going on and they're asking, because the family, the mom and dad facilitate that environment to talk. So that'd be positive one. I want to say other positive experiences of talking about adoption have been with Chinese individuals who are not American citizens, I want to say so a lot of a lot of individuals who come to the United States for school. Those have been very positive experiences to like, oh, like, tell me more about your life. You're Chinese. You live in the United States. What's that, like? So those have been nice. But I know sometimes occasionally, it's like, I get dirty looks and stuff. And I almost think that's not an adoptee thing that's just being Asian, like a physical characteristic. Sounds like oh, well, that's not so great. Hopefully, we don't have to keep facing that as well. But yeah, those are a couple examples I can think of just recently.

Are there any exmaples of, or have you seen a trend of where you usually feel like you do get those dirty looks or you aren't you don't feel as welcome?

Oh, well, I want to say because I like what is it? What's it called? Um, okay, I don't want to curse was like resting? You know, are you?

You can, it's fine.

Okay? Bitch face. So resting bitch face is a thing I've heard, and I don't think I have one. So maybe that helps but I know like, people who do especially like Chinese people, like they seem unapproachable. Like their--yeah, so and I want to say I haven't--or maybe just presently, I don't really pay attention that closely to feel that I've seen dirty looks and stuff every so often it's like, but I don't know if that's because of me, or it's like something that other person's going through when they're just projecting it. It's usually that this is the biggest thing I've learned is, it's not about you, which is a hard thing to remind yourself. But a lot of times when those experiences are happening, it's not you, it's the other person, like their own prejudices or their own judgments are being projected onto you. But it's not you at all. Like, don't feel like it's you. And also, the closest I've ever gotten to like dirty looks might be when I'm like running. But when I run, I don't run, especially right now with a mask because it's really hard to breathe, but I keep moving. So I have gotten dirty looks occasionally for that. I would occasionally like be running. I will occasionally be running and then people would move to like the other side of the street or something. Okay, so I would say yeah, that has happened, especially because of COVID. And since it's supposedly, you know, began in China and all that it's become more apparent to me, it's like, oh, I think maybe people are moving to the other side of the street because I'm an Asian running down and they're like, Oh, I'm gonna get it. First of all, I don't know why anybody would go out running or do fitness, if they have it if they know they have it. But that's another thing. Otherwise, yeah, I want to say even before that, I think when I was younger, yes being with my family. Obviously we don't look alike. Sometimes you'd get looks too, and then I find myself actually looking or not in a judging way. But it could be taken that way, looking at a family recently where there's a little girl like on a scooter Chinese and her mom is like white and I was like, so nice to see that. But I was staring. And I'm like, Oh, you know, I guess, again, it was like, this is interesting because I'm now staring but not in a negative way. But it could be interpreted that way. Like, alright, I'm really, I'm really glad to see like more Chinese adoptee kids out here in the world. Um, I think it's becoming more accepted in general, even before COVID I feel like it's becoming more accepted of diversity, like families are all not the same. I was speaking with somebody about this, and I believe it relates back too but like, there are mixed families. There's a lot of mixed families. And sometimes kids don't look like both their parents, they might look more like one parent. So like when they're out and they're with that parent, they don't look alike. Physically, they get questions or they get asked or they get stared at. Like, okay, I don't know if it's just like we're all becoming we are becoming this like melting pot in the United States, hopefully in many areas. Where it's like not so weird to see like a mixed child or mixed family essentially. Yeah, I want to say it was a different story when Chinese adoptees were being adopted pretty frequently in the 90s, early 90s. Because you didn't I guess that's when they opened their doors to international adoption. Definitely more apparent than of like, Okay, this kid is different.

Alright, I have a lot of follow-up questions. I try to decide which direction I want to go in.

Um-hm.

Can you talk a little bit more about I guess, when you were younger? Like, what was it? I guess first of all, what was your school like, in like elementary school, like middle school? Did--let's just start with that what was your school experience like?

Oh man. So the having a diverse town being part of a diverse town is great, because in my school, you had a lot of mixed kids, you know, mixed races and mixed mixed ethnicities in the school, which is amazing. But I do think there was an air of I want to say like most of our teachers weren't mixed. I make that face and like, yeah, that doesn't help. And it's funny, because it's like, I remember trying to, I think I've had this recent experience to put like, I befriended a lot of like white kids, essentially, like my good friends were white. One of them I still am actually close with now, surprisingly, a lot of my friends are white. The only thing that really drove me crazy about my elementary school experience was they kept me in ESL which is the was it like English as a second language class. They kept me in ESL for like another year longer than I needed to be in it, which pissed me off so much. Because like, as you can see, my I am not struggling with communicating in English. If nothing, I actually have a reading level that's like going really well in the English language or whatever. But it kept me in that class longer. And thinking back to it, maybe it's because a new student had come from France, who had to be in ESL, and he was like, the only one in that class. So they need like another kid, maybe? I don't really know. But I remember that was very frustrating, like, why am I in ESL? And then it's because we're talking about memory. My only other memory of school to you. I think it was like, similar to what kids feel is--it was supposed to be the first time I was going to go to the DC zoo. And I came to school, I was like, really sick, but I really wanted to go to the zoo. So I came in the teachers like you're too sick, you can't go I was really upset about that, too. It was like, I want to go. So yeah, I want to say school experience was pretty good. For the most part. I think there were some momments of like bullying and stuff that did happen. So it goes unfortunately. But for the most part, yeah, I think if anything was from like, the higher up and higher education, people, the people in charge that would like keep me back or something in that sense of like the ESL class or but I also know is like and then in middle school was pretty interesting. But like I tested ahead, and like the math group, I was able to advance in math somehow. And then I was with like the "smarter kids" (gestures air quotes). I keep doing quotes because there's different levels of education, of course, and how every system, school system does is different for everywhere. But yeah, I felt that way too. I was like, all right, well I'm a smart kid now. So I then I did see a lot of like Asian kids in those math classes to be stereotypical. Because stereotypes were very much prevalent very strong at the time. And then high school, I don't feel like there was much of a divide or really noticing too much occasionally what happened because like everybody around me, in the theater group, for instance, there was some diversity, but it wasn't as great as like, other clubs or sports or something. Also, it was like, between my time at my high school, it went from predominantly, like a minority of black to predominantly like black student population by the time I graduated. So like there are these shifts, like things have shifted the dynamic changes. Also, I think I was more distracted by like, students who were in high school who are pregnant too, I was like, Oh. So like, the race thing didn't even matter anymore. Because like, no matter what race you were, if you were pregnant, just like, whoa, how are you doing that? Having a baby? That's really off topic. But to get back to it. Yeah, I want to say my personal experience with school, hopefully, want to say it's more in line with everybody else. And I also know, by the time I finished high school, I think with my last two years of high school, I stopped really caring about school and didn't really put much focus on like being a part of any group anymore. Best time in my life. I was like, you know, I stopped doing theater stuff, because I knew I wasn't enjoying it as much either. But I think I think that was like the biggest takeaway from the education experience is like, the less that I focused on trying to be something that I'm not. Because it's so hard not to do that when you're a kid, you really want to be part of that, then it was like much better. Also, like maturity was another question too of--I think I sort of matured a little bit more than other students two times. Not all students, but some students. And that played a role into my perspective and perception of everything happening as well. That's it was pretty good experience for the most part. I've had to leave a legacy in some way.

Could you share some of, I guess, experiences of racial stereotyping either observed or like experienced yourself while you're in school?

Oh, I want to say the only real racial stereotyping was with classes, being in those math classes or something. It was always the Asian kids, the Korean kids were. Yeah. Because we did have a lot of Korean students actually, they will be in the higher up math classes and everything. That would be like the most distinguished thing was like, Oh, yes, the Korean children, students are in those more excelled math classes. Or we there was a Chinese guy who was in school with me, I think, in high school. And there'd be a lot of jokes made about like, Oh, are you--how come you're in this class, you should be in this class as a Chinese kid. So there's a lot of the whole like Tiger mom conversations. And but I do think a big part of it is, I again, was more friends with white people than Asians. Because I think if I was more friends with the other Chinese or Korean students that were my school, and there wasn't a huge amount, but there was a small group. It would have been a little bit different experience. I want to say like the--but yeah, I feel like the stereotyping and stuff wasn't as strong or I wasn't really cognizant of it. I didn't really pay attention to it. Mostly because I was focused on other things. So I'm going to say not too much of it. If there was, I want to say I probably blocked it out. And that's okay.

And then could you talk a little bit more about your experience doing theater? So like, what kind of was that like that your main hobby during high school after you quit dance and what that kinded of look like?

Yeah. Oh, it's so funny. So theater, um, and don't, okay, so this I do remember too. Theater was, again, as I said earlier, it was like my way to try and connect with my brother. But that was only the first year I was there. I didn't have any, like, natural talent to be like on the stage. So I was always in the tech, like in the back backdrop group, whatever I became, like the sound technician, essentially. And I was sound technician the whole time. So that was an experience where I kept trying to like, be involved. All the friends I made would be like in the production performing, and I'm here in the background doing the sound thing. I was like, great. Yeah, so. This is where it's like, I'm grateful for the experience, but I also really didn't like it too. But I would keep being in that role of the background person while all my friends would be in the performances, the play and musical. The one year, I almost got to perform in the musical ended up not happening. But all my like three best friends at the time were in it, which was really upsetting because, like, Oh, I'm here, and while there, they all go to like the same practice and stuff. And it just sort of was a pretty big check of like ego at that point. That's a big check on the ego. Not that I want to say I had like a huge one. But it was definitely a check of like, yeah, you're not gonna be performing. I did get to do understudy for the play. I think my third year, surprisingly, it was right after that was like, I don't really want to do this anyway. Were my spirits were really high when we started, but then, as we progressed, I realized I'm not enjoying this as much. And so that's how I stopped participating. But yes, so but the hard thing about the theater is always I was always feeling like I was the second hand person, or the--not as appreciated as the performers, you know? And so that that was always caught, that was always a struggle to like, oh, being the tech person, you're not as well respected as being a performer. And I did have friends that I made through, there a really close friend at the time. Long story short, it's just like, we ended up--I ended up breaking up with this friend about a year and a half ago, present. So it's like, it's from the time we were 14, to 26, 25. Yeah, 14 to 25. We were friends. And then I actually like broke up with this friend, it was like, Yeah, no, I don't think this is, this isn't gonna work anymore. But looking back at it now, because my perception is a little bit clouded based on looking back at it now. She was always in the play, she was always the starring role all four years that we were there. And that created a lot of dynamic shifting. So I do think the theater experience was helpful that it helped teach me about ego, and also resilience, which is a huge buzzword, but it's true. I even got an award for being the most resilient as well, by the end of the four years because of the all of the activities in our high school, for instance, I don't know if all schools do it. If you stay a part of an activity for all four years, there's a banquet based on whatever group activity you were in. The banquet for the theatre group, because I participated, basically three and a half years, four years, they gave an award that said most resilient. That's it, like cool. So I mean, it's a compliment to in a backhanded way. But I was like, yeah, this is a compliment as well. So in that experience, theater definitely beat The beat me down quite a bit. But it also confirmed the resilience of it and the potential that I have for that which I did carry on into college. Which college was, I know you were asking about earlier, education but I know college plays a role too. I actually decided to go to a university in Ohio. And it was, in a sense, a reverse culture shock, as I like to put it that way. But there was not a lot of diversity in the school I went to, it was the opposite of where I came from. And also the students who were Chinese that came to the university would usually be together all the time, or I didn't really see them. But there wasn't a lot of Asian Americans, I should say, that I knew of at my university. Actually, college was worse than the theater experience. I know I needed to go through that. Wish it could have been slightly different, but I don't regret it either. As well, because college was a valuable experience. It was the complete opposite of what I experienced growing up of ethnicity and diversity. But I graduated, so that works out for me. I was like I just need to graduate and leave. Well, you know.

Yeah. Can you talk a bit more about your experiences in college and how they differ from high school?

Yes, it was also because the classes that I took in college were more fine tuned to my field of study, which is photography, all my photography classes, it was all white people. That's the thing is that all white people put people and me. There was a guy he didn't stay past first year. There was--people came and went. By the end of the four years at college, in my class, I think we started with probably 40 people. And ended up with only 15 of us that graduated with a degree, I want to say in that specific field, I also decided to get involved with other organizations to build up the career side, because I know, I was heavily influenced by what I had heard from my family and myself of after college, you have to have a job, so you better work and find ways to get involved and learn how to be a professional once you graduate. I'm glad I took that advice. And I joined a sales group, which had more diversity than my major. And it also could be it really, I really do think because of my field of study in my major that had a big impact on who was in the classes. I know in your early years, in your first year of college, a lot of those classes you are in are the big lecture classes between 100 to 300 students, maybe I believe the biggest classes we had were 500 students, max. I don't know if they were all filled. But it was not necessarily that you were going to become close to people in size classes that big versus high school where you're putting these classes, and it's usually around the same type of people or seeing name same classes. But there was definitely more I want to say opportunity to get to know other people because you have seen these people growing up and then being in those classes, sometimes I would become closer to other people being in those classes. Then in college where it did feel like oh, I'm the only non white person here. People joke and it's they say you did go to Ohio. That's a fair point. I went to OU [Ohio University], which is not Ohio State, Ohio State is a very big college. In Ohio down in southeast, I went to the smaller one. And they always is the biggest thing too. I didn't realize it but my university was known as a partying school within it was one of the top partying schools. I didn't know that going there. I went there because of the program I was in is was respected. And also the campuses really beautiful. Despite my differences with the program. It also, again, I value the experience I don't hate, I'm grateful that I got to do it. But I didn't really participate in the drinking culture. And that was huge. With the university I went to, I think that had a big effect on my experience, too. I went to OU, you but I didn't party. I got drunk once. And that was more than plenty. In my first year, I'm good. The that definitely played a played a big role in social life too. And I struggled a lot with making friendships. And I could talk about a lot easier now than before. But at my university in my first year in my dorm, it's like it's a big community. But at the same time, it's small. I got slut shamed pretty bad, which nobody enjoys. No matter who you are, you do not enjoy that experience, especially when you're still really only 18, 19 because other such prime years. But my I guess my reputation quote unquote, got slammed pretty hard. Which stinks. I'm looking back at it now. I was like, well, so it goes resilience. That played a big part. So I know I don't talk fondly of my experience as well. There are definitely highlights from the experience. But yeah. And then similar to what I did in high school, though I actually in college by my third and fourth year, I stopped caring as much or being as--oh okay. Got it. It says it's having issues with your participant is having issues with their bandwidth.

Oh, that's fine, just keep talking.

Yeah. So by the, by the time I my third year, because I actually could have graduated a year early, which I didn't realize that would have been great. I kind of wish I did that to an extent but I'm glad I didn't because then in my senior year, my last year at university, I was able to goof off a little bit and just enjoy not being as--actually I should say, I can't really say that was the first time I did that because now I'm doing it currently, sort of, but I had a similar feeling that I did in high school which was well don't put so much focus on trying to be something you're not again. And the experience was better. I actually dated some start dating somebody in my third year at university, we dated through my fourth year, and then we didn't stay together afterwards. But I do think that was helpful that when I really stopped trying to be something I wasn't, I found a really good relationship from that experience. And I didn't really date in high school, I don't remember really, dating. I did go to prom with a guy. But that was really the extent of it. So I would say that's the comparable experience too and it's going to be different for everybody. Of course, I do think, depending on the people that you connect with in high school or college, no matter where you connect, whoever you connect with, really impacts how your experience is going to be. Again, if I actually, with my present mindset. Now, if I had that in college, I would have probably connected more with like the Chinese international students then. Than obviously, all the white people, again, not that there's anything wrong with people. It's just it's tough. Sometimes.

Thank you for sharing all of that.

Yeah.

I guess a question I have is--so you mentioned, I guess this is more with middle school and high school about how the administration was kind of not great about accepting, I guess, racial diversity. I'm editorialize a little bit. But did you have any, I guess, mentors or any professors that helped you? Maybe kind of work through some of the challenges you're going through in high school or even college as well?

Let's see. In in high school, I want to say there was--I do want to say there was in high school, and middle school, maybe. And I, it was probably female teachers, I'm sure it was very much likely female teachers, that I was able to sort of talk. There wasn't any that I was able to speak more closely about the being an ethnic group of being Chinese, essentially, there wasn't really anybody that I could speak with about that, in that sense. I guess did have the guidance counselor that was always helpful. In middle school, high school was guidance counselor that was always helpful to like, go talk to them and really sort of confide and talk and figure out what's how to get through it all. But then, actually, there's like this weird twist, believe it or not. I don't want to like, go too much. Because I don't know how much time I could take. But it's a long story. So because it all connects back.

You can go ahead.

Okay. All right. This is a fun one. Middle school, I did do band, right. And I played the flute. I wanted to play the trumpet. But my mom said that the trumpet case is too big, and it would be too loud. So I had to play flute, I fucking hated it. I guess I can say that. I hated the flute, I did not like playing that. I could tell I didn't like playing it because I wouldn't, wasn't really committed to it, I would play it but I wasn't really wasn't into it. So then I would play the flute and I hated it. The band director at the time. Nice person, actually, well, that band director reappeared later in my life. And then also, in middle school, I did talk to the guidance counselor quite a bit, I would go see him and talk a lot because I was really angry and upset a lot during that time, and it was rough. I think it was actually that was around the time that my oldest brother was going through high school and a lot of stuff was going on in his life, which then transfered it into the family. So obviously, that causes a lot of stress didn't really know how to work through that. And after that, too, because I think that was the first time in middle school when I parted ways with like my really good friend at the time that I knew in elementary school. She and I sort of I actually told her I was like, I don't really want to be your friend. Which is really tough when you're a kid to have somebody tell you that too. And so fast forward many years later about, it's been probably 15 years. The friend that I had parted ways with then, I reconnected with actually three years ago too just casually and I was able to tell her it's like I didn't I know like when we parted ways the first time that I had sort of done it in a very mean way and I feel bad. So I apologize then. That was sidebar to the main story. Yeah, so mentor wise. Yeah, I think middle school was guidance counselor and one other teacher that I could find and who's like a female as well and I would talk to them. It was usually female teachers that I've talked to. The band director is a male. High school, there was one individual that I was able to speak with who also sort of helped me work through like being angry and communicating. He actually passed away after my first year in high school from cancer, memorial and everything. But that was really rough, that was a sad time for a lot of people the service and everything, it was sad. And then the rest of high school, I don't think I remember other people that I really talked to you because I think once he left the world, essentially, that was my main person that I spoke with. So I didn't really talk to anybody. I don't think I talked to the guidance counselor as much either. And then college, I did attend therapy sessions. Because they were--they came in a very good rate. So I would speak to a therapist. A lot of my focus throughout college was trying to form good, I should say, form friendships in general. Didn't really do so great on that level. After college, I graduate, I go back home to Maryland, and the band director from middle school, I found out was a photographer. And he started to dabble into doing more photography. So I actually reconnected with him and assisted him on photography stuff, just so I could learn because I hadn't really done the portraits or photographing fashion and everything, which is more the style that he was doing, we actually became pretty close kind of like a mentor friendship. Close enough that like we were able to trust each other to like experiment with like art and stuff. Right. But then you bring in the other friend that I mentioned earlier with who was in high school was always the star of every show. The so she knew of the band director sort of indirectly. Well, it ended up being that the band director wanted to have her model like this is it's just crazy how small the world can be sometimes. And this could definitely contribute to why I was like, I know I want to leave. I've been I had been wanting to move away from home for like three years now. And I finally did it in the in the past three months, six months, it's been six, no wait, it's been three months since I moved here, six months since the pandemic started. But before that, even the past two years, I was like I don't want to stay in Maryland, I do want to get out of Maryland, I need to like see other things. So that's a, that's an important key point to the story. The friend who ended up modeling for the band director, and then I also helped out, our friendship was a little bit strange, already, like it was starting to become kind of strange. And she ended up posing and I ended up finding out through that experience like oh my goodness, this is not a great experience for me, you the way that you're acting in this, this time is not in line with what I feel or what I value. So pretty much after that. I was like I don't want to work with her. I'm okay working with you the photographer-band director, but I don't really want to work with her. Just putting it out there and there was this this whole thing but basically, he had gone behind my back didn't tell me if she had gone behind my back and didn't tell me there was all this like going behind each other's back type thing. Well my back for the most part. And he continues to work with her. But we--I decided to part ways with her Not long after because it was all just very like, Ah, it's not all about you type of situation is really what I found out. And where was I going with this? Yes. It's like mentorship with people? Yes. So that photographer/band director for middle school years did reappear, we did end up connecting but then the whole like other big world, small world, small world thing because our relationship everything was really good. When we started. I learned a lot from the experience with him. He learned from me like it was mutual. Then you found this other third person who ended up being it's all about me kind of person. Totally ruined it. Like completely messed that relationship up. And I was able to speak with that mentor at the time because he's married to a Japanese woman and has mixed daughters. So like you can talk about the whole race and mixing and like I was able to talk about my adoption pretty openly and being Asian and everything because it's like, okay, you understand, like you have daughters who are mixed like you know this, you have a wife who's Japanese, like, I can talk about all this. So, I would say mentorships in a one minute mentorship friendship that I discovered later on in life ended up not working out of course, because it just ended up pretty bad, that ended badly. In college, I guess I did the therapy with the health program available and then confiding in other individuals, I want to say I didn't do as much either. It seems like that didn't exactly happen. Maybe students who are older I was able to connect to students who were a little bit older, but then they graduated. Yeah, I want to say that mentorship. Oh, I did. Again, I met somebody randomly who, white guy, spoke to me in Chinese at the swimming pool. And we started forming just like an email relationship was very amicable like, Oh, yeah, email back and forth helped, like review my resume and everything. Yeah, that friendship, mentorship, I guess that mentorship was turning into a friendship, just within the past year, presently. Yeah, that ended up also ending as well, that was one of those instances of a negative relationship, negative experience of being an adoptee and what was going on. Because I was I felt comfortable enough to confide in this individual about my experience with my family at the time. That's what happened, my parents, blah, blah, blah. He had invited me down to the beach for a little bit and said, Oh, yeah, I think the beach would be good, not really thinking more about what the true intentions behind going to the beach, I found out pretty quickly. It wasn't very, it wasn't all pure, hard lesson learned. But again, so I think with mentorships, for experience with adoption, it's hard to really maintain some of them, like some of them, I think I have formed, but actually finding like a mentor. If anything, it feels like I've become more of like a mentor to adoptees than like people being a mentor to me about adoption, because my experiences with mentorships have gone badly. A few times, I've now learned, I definitely feel like I'm more hesitant to form that kind of mentorship relationship with people to even speak about adoption. Now it feels it's easier to speak about adoption with people who are a little bit younger than me or like right around my age too. I'm not that I'm super old. But like being able to speak with other adoptees I would say, it'd be nice to connect with adoptees who are a little bit older than me, especially Chinese adoptees, just to hear their experience. But now I'm sort of, through the experience of speaking with the woman from Singapore. She's definitely older. She's Chinese. She's not adopted. But I've been able to speak with her. I found and formed a relationship with a woman who's Japanese who is older and has two children who are Japanese with her husband who's Thai, but there there are people I have found slowly, without as much trouble want to say like, it's easy to be honest. So yes, answer that question. I think I have found more mentorships way after school than I did in school, the ones I found in school ended up not being very genuine versus the ones that I have formed, post all education. Maybe it's partially because it's become more sure of what I'm looking for more in relationships in general, more in relationships in general. And that plays a big part, versus in education, middle school, high school and college, you're still kind of figuring out what it is. Usually, I was and then seeking, and I know the biggest does go back to being I think an adoptee is like valuing and looking for validation and other people to make myself feel wanted or loved too, and sometimes bending over backwards for that ended up in some pretty rough situations. So yes, that would be my big, long answer to that question of mentorships, post-education have definitely been more valuable. And I'm still--what is it--navigating those as well. Versus middle school high school a lot harder, or college too.

And could you share the names of like your middle school in high school just so we have that for the record?

Yeah. My middle school is Patuxent Valley Middle School in Columbia, Maryland. And my high school is called Hammond High School in Columbia, Maryland as well.

All right, thank you. Yeah, thank you for sharing those experiences too. It sounds like it was really rough to go through all of them.

I joke. It's like, sometimes parts of my life can be a little bit of a soap opera. And not that it's all not me. I know, I contribute to a lot of those events, too. It's like, it's not all me. I know, just moving forward. I like to be a little bit more cognizant and aware of the actions and stuff consequences of whatever decisions I make or results. Yeah, I'm definitely more like, Okay. Not as trusting. I would say to people, to an extent. Yeah.

And then could you share what you did--what you've been doing since you graduated? So what was your did you graduate, first of all?

Yes, I graduated 2015 or may 2015. So spring semester, and I actually moved back home because I didn't have a job yet. I didn't have a job lined up. Which happens, of course, and I, I know by this point I hadn't, I decided I didn't really want to be working in as like a photographer, per se, in that, in that capacity. I knew I wasn't ready for it. So I ended up eventually finding my first job. First, I did a contract job at a company called Merkel and I was a designer, it was a contract position. And I was there for I think about four months. And then I went to a labor day weekend barbecue. And my mom and dad's neighbor said, Oh, my girlfriend is looking for somebody to fill a position here at her company, which is an association in construction. And I worked, I interviewed and got that job. So I did get a full time job, about six months after graduating. And I worked there for two years, two years, I worked there for two years. And I knew I wouldn't have a lot of room to grow there. So I ended up interviewing and leaving there and going to a member company of the association. An association is really for companies to I think gather and sort of support a common cause, it's very common in DC area, there's a lot of associations. For every industry, every field, there's even an association for associations, which is a little bit confusing. But yes, this one was a association construction. And after leaving the I went to a general contracting company, and worked in marketing there, where I was hoping to have a little bit more creative flexibility, ended up not having that creative flexibility. And I stayed there for about a year and nine months. And then after that, I left that company, a headhunter had found me to work at a real estate company, again, thinking I had a lot more creative flexibility ended up being more of an event management position, I was there for four months, and then I got fired from there. Thanksgiving 2019, which I keep saying, I truly think when the pandemic started, originally, if we had known about it, to get not too political, but truly, when China figured out they had the cases, it was November of 2019. United States didn't do anything until March of 2020. So basically, since I got fired. I got fired when the pandemic started in November 2019, Thanksgiving week, great time to lose your job. It's cool. And I was only at that company for about three or four months. But after that experience, I decided one I should move. I've been wanting to move, let's move. And on a personal level too I had lived at home for two years. And then I moved out with and found a roommate randomly through connections through work and found a roommate and lived with that roommate for about three years, three and a half years. And that roommate actually is in Indiana working towards his PhD. And then I moved to New York. Originally, I only moved to New Jersey, at first, I would so November 2019 I had been fired. I kept interviewing for jobs up in New York. So from November to February, I was going up and down the coast to interview for positions and I interviewed for about three or four different positions. The position I ended up getting was like the very last one that I interviewed for. Very quick interview and it's I don't know if we had talked about it earlier but as a receptionist for a Creative Advertising Agency at this point. I felt upon graduating May 2015 I had worked for almost four years completely new professional level. But I wasn't happy. I kept working these marketing roles that were more business oriented didn't have a lot of creativity. I didn't enjoy it. Even though the pay was pretty substantial, it wasn't too substantial, but it was it was enough. It was sort of the follow the career path of graduate, work, get your degree, get your degree, then work, and then find family, everything. And I wasn't happy. I am now I keep saying when I tell people and it's true now is like I've essentially hit restart, for me to think about what would I like to do for work, I do still like photography, I'd like to work, contribute that or include that into what I do for work. I don't really want to keep doing these marketing roles where I wasn't happy. Because what's the point of moving somewhere else to start over and then to just repeat it again, just in a different area. And that's how I ended up coming to New York, it was between New York and maybe California was an idea. I mean, there was idea of, maybe I could work somewhere else in the United States. But for some reason, New York kept drawing me to come. I also think it was far enough away from Maryland. But still close enough, if I really need to go back I could, this is all before stuff really hit the fan of the pandemic. And I started working as a receptionist for this advertising agency, I commuted from my aunt's home in New Jersey, door to doors about two and a half hours for about 14 days, 14 work days. And then pandemic did come to the United States. And that's when they decided we can't have anybody coming in to work at the office. And I ended up leaving. Not leaving the company, but just not being physically at the office and put on furlough right away. So I worked probably not even three full weeks, and I got put on furlough right away. And then then everything that I believe I talked about since the pandemic has happened. So on a work work level, yes, I did work pretty much right out of school, got a job work, and then built a little bit of the what is it built up experience. And now I'm here starting over, trying to figure out what I would like to do. I know I want to be in a creative area. So being at a creative agency, I do feel is the right direction to just instinctively I do feel going the right way more towards what I'd like to do. And especially with a pandemic being able to sit down and not be like go, go, go. Of course, I've been stuck thinking more about it's like Did I make the right decision to stay with this company? Should I find another job? I've been told I should find another job by other people. And again, this goes back to like, I can't do that for other people I should do for me. So yes, that would be since I graduated work for about four years, almost four years. Got fired. Came to New York starting over still figuring it out to be determined, I would say. But I got the job.

Yeah, it's like I got a job.

How's it been adjusting to living in New York?

Oh my, it is, it is something else. It is very big. From where I came, and it's also, and I think it's a good thing, too, is I don't know a lot of people here. I know Katie. Katie, she's been in New York, and has lived here. She went to school in New York, and then also stayed to live here for a little bit. So in the time that I've known Katie, which is about almost three years, she's always been in the city. So moving up to the city that's been helpful with the adjustment is having Katie here, I've seen her a lot more than usual, by being able to speak with her and talk a little bit more about, like, what it feels like to be here. It's all new. I'm living with three random people. And that's not the best but it again, making the best of it. So I think adjusting to living in New York is a different culture, especially when you don't know a lot of people and it's all new. It's what I needed too, I know it's what I needed. But I know because I came during the pandemic, I feel my experience to adjust has been a lot easier in a sense because it's not like go, go, go every second like I don't have to be doing something every second partially because we're not allowed to and also I'm huge runner. So I've been running around a lot exploring the area, seeing what's around. And also, you can run and go see the really cool city skyline views that sometimes people see only when they visit once or twice a year. And so the adjustment, it's got, it's got, it's getting better, I did come with my car originally. And I parted ways with my car after two months of having it, because I truly was only using it to get groceries, which was with once every two weeks other than that I would have to like, move the car. And I thought also, car insurance in the city is very expensive, very expensive. And I decided, you know, with the cost of having insurance and car, keeping up the maintenance of the car, it's not worth it. And that's how I ended up getting in my car. So I also feel like I'd become more of a city--citizen? Resident resident, like, I am a citizen of the United States, a resident of New York, I actually went and got my ID switch the other day. So now it's like, all right, I think you're really are becoming a true like, resident of New York now. So the adjustments still there. And I do think the adjustment will keep happening, especially as things do open up at some point, I would think returning back to work. Being in the city and returning back to work. And also finding people finding friendships to the funny thing is, I noticed is like some friendships I had made are mostly Asian people. And then it's the irony of it all, like, oh, growing up all the friends, I made mostly white. To Oh, to put the book end on the earlier story, the friend who I parted ways with originally in middle school is like, I don't want to be your friend anymore. Well, during this pandemic, and everything she was supposed to get married, she was she got her doctorate, she got married, and she got her doctor in the same within the span of like two months, which is a lot. That's a lot for anybody. And we are at same age, she's 27. But the irony is like we became closer during this time, because I visited her for, I visited her to celebrate her wedding or right before all this pandemic stuff happened. The day I got fired from my work, she was coming down with her husband or fiance at the time. And we had dinner and we were, we weren't super close, really, we would talk a little bit more, but we would like visit each other and talk some. I think it's actually right before the pandemic hit to that I went and saw her around New Year's. So I think that's a lot of fun. So it's just interesting how like friendships can sometimes shift or change and see there's a shift. But I think that also helped with adjusting tube is coming to New York, the only person I didn't know was Katie, but also, the really close friendships--a lot of time to think about friendships during this time--was also my former roommate who's in Indiana. And now physically, we aren't near each other. But that's a very close friend. But I do think having a close friend or people you can feel connected to when you're going through transitions is helpful to be able to talk to somebody else. And then the podcast, that's the other thing the podcast has been the one consistent throughout the pandemic as well. The I started in April, from the time I started in April to present I did move three times. Yes, three times all during the COVID times. And not exactly recommended. But in some ways, it really didn't have a choice. So and I have found ways to make my space and everything like mine, I do no like now I currently, this is the other thing too. I didn't have everything of my own with me. And now I do like all my possessions materials to say, but all my possessions I do have in my space. And I think that helps feel more complete with like moving my first two months here. The other person that I took over the lease for her stuff was here. So I didn't actually have like room to put my stuff. And then like finding ways, so now I feel more settled. I do think in a year I probably will leave again from this space, but I think I'll stay in New York. It's a very long answer, my bad. But essentially adjusting is it's tough, but it's getting there. I'm getting there. And I think I will still be an adjustment once things open or resume. Sort of. Yeah.

You have gone through a lot of change. So I do admire all the--

All the resilience is there.

It's a lot of resilience.

Oh yes. Oh, I did work on nonprofit too. So I have been working actually. I should--I'd like to put that on the record I have been working. Because while on furlough I, technically you can't work. And even as a receptionist, what am I going to do from home, I have to be in the office really to work. So I found I did the podcast, which helped, of course, and you know it's like the schedule, as I was saying earlier, and also, a friend of mine who lives in New York started a nonprofit about a year and a half ago, I want to say they started this nonprofit for education in prisons, technology education, specifically, which is like another level to technology education in prison called Project Reclass. And she invited me to listen on a meeting, I was like, Sure, why not? I'll learn about it. And then there was a big event that happened at the beginning of this month of October, I ended up actually being the, what do you call it? The person who had to control the event, it was on Zoom, but like, I learned how to Zoom, manage, essentially, and also did all the marketing for it, creating a web page that there was a lot I did for that event, that I had not done any of that stuff before. So I was like, I'm working, I'm staying busy. Partially because it was like there was a good portion, when you go through a lot of change to personally and professionally, especially personally, I do think there is time that is needed to sort of work through all that and like work through the pain. Still working through that that. So going back to the adjusting question. I would say not that COVID is a good thing, because it's not, but because of what's been going on with my personal life. COVID has been helpful that I've been able to process a lot of what has been going on with my own personal relationships with my family, and also what happened with work and what am I going to do next. But yeah, so it's a lot of change a lot of growing.

Yeah. Okay, so we're getting--we're past an hour and a half now. So I don't want to keep you too much longer. But I do want to ask you--let's see, one question I did want to ask is--you kind of touched on this a little bit. But, um, how have you seen? I guess, have you personally, um, kind of changed anything about how you think about race or anything along those lines with the Black Lives Matter protests that occurred over the summer? Or have you seen like other people, changing their minds about things, just kind of general impressions about that?

That's a that's an interesting question. Because I know, I think it depends where you've been around. I know personally, I feel like I have seen a shift a little bit. Primarily, especially being in New York too which is, I think, maybe one of the most diverse areas in the world. I don't know for sure. So I don't want to put that as like a fact. But I do think New York is a very--it's its own world for sure, in some ways. I want to say there is an awareness of race more, especially being in New York with Black Lives Matter, protests and posts, and sharing the stories. It's all being transferred into entertainment comedy, I see a lot of content about race. And also I think doing the podcast has been a big influence and seeing more awareness about race too, because a lot of people that I connected with through podcast, on the Instagram are very strong voices, and advocates for race awareness, especially Black Lives Matter, Asian awareness with COVID and being assaulted. Not that everybody's been assaulted that I've connected with, but there are a lot of people who show stories of Asian Americans or Asians being assaulted everywhere. And I do think, and I do, and I've heard too, when I've spoken with people that because of Black Lives Matter, it does bring up a lot of awareness. Especially to black people, people of color, about what's wrong, and it has been wrong for a long time. This is something that really, unfortunately, has not been addressed in the whole time that all of us have been alive. And I hate to say it, but I don't know if it will be addressed by the time our generation becomes older. When is it really going to become addressed too? But on the side of like being Asian American or being like a Chinese being adoptees Asian adoptees. I almost do feel there has been a heightened awareness about Asians too that there might not have been or also with you take COVID out of it too, to take COVID outside of it, with the entertainment and media with Crazy Rich Asians came out I think two years ago, right 2018?

I think so?

Yeah, so it's like crazy rich Asians, other movies and films and everything that are now in the us a lot of the a lot of Asian inspired stories, Asians by stories and also cast and crew of like Asian individuals too. So I do believe, I feel personally I've seen change in the race awareness, especially with Asians. In the United States, I've heard there is more awareness across the pond or over in other areas of the world. In the United States, I do believe strongly Yes, there's a lot more awareness with the change of race, especially Black Lives Matters is a huge influence. But even before Black Lives Matter. There was more media and entertainment that featured Asian actors. So yes, the answer to that is yes, I'm confident.

And I guess that's a concluding question. I think I have so many other questions for you. But for this one--

I am totally open. If you want to talk more. I don't mind whatever helps your projects. Like it's all good.

I think. I think that the recording stops at two hours automatically--

Does it really? Oh, well, if, if you have more, you're more than welcome to ask. It's totally fine. I'm here, that's why it's like I blocked it off.

Okay, um, I mean, we could maybe do a follow up session after this?

Oh, okay.

But I don't take up too much your time.

All good.

But I guess for for the sake of this recording. Um, what--let's see. Is there any advice that you'd want to give to, I guess, younger Asian or Chinese adoptees that you wish maybe had known before? Or? I don't know. I guess it's or just--

How do I say this without sounding--I don't want to sound rude. But like, it's not that serious is a big one. I think that's a that can transpire across many boards too. But I feel like the biggest thing is like it's not that serious. And ultimately, do what you should do for you, is the biggest one, two, I think that's a commonality I've heard or spoken with, with a lot of adoptees, when I've spoken with them, is doing what's expected of you. Those people who have all these extra expectations of you are not going to live with the decisions that are made in your life. So whatever you choose to do Mia with your life, like your your family is not going to be living with the decisions you make for your life, for instance. That's a hard lesson. I've been learning recently, too. It's like what I choose to do, I have to do because I want to and what's going to make me not suffer either. And then the it's not that serious is more--it's a little bit of a joke on joking side. But it also is there's a seriousness to that is not that serious of a lot of stuff that seem like it's really going to impact you and long term doesn't actually impact you long term. It's really not at all the case. It's usually I want to say I mean, well to backtrack a little bit being adoptees, of course, that is serious for us, because that is going to impact us the long term. There's literally nothing we can do about that as adoptees and I guess that does transfer to people who are younger to that, like, you are not able to change what you look like. Technically, you're not able to change what you look like unless you want to spend a lot of money in surgery. So that's a different story. But in the in the grand scheme, more main line is, yeah, I think like us as adoptees, there's not much we can do there. But on such like more minor things like friendships and stuff, when you're younger, seem much more impactful that you, it's like I've got to be friends with this person forever and ever. But actually, it's not always the case. It's actually not that serious. Oh, if you have a disagreement with your friend at the time, over something silly like being late to meet them. That's just a personal example, I'm projecting that then it's really not that serious because in the grand scheme of things, does it matter? And it just so happens not friends with that person anymore. But I do think those are like the two big takeaways and advice I would give people who are like younger, Chinese adoptees too, it's is not that serious. If it really is that serious. Maybe try to talk about it a little bit more with that person? Or trying to talk to somebody about it. I feel like this is kind of like a mental health awareness speech too. And the other definitely is, ultimately try to find and do what makes you happy. Because you're the one who's gonna live with yourself, no matter what decisions you make. That's my, that's my two pieces. My wisdom.

Right and then--okay, and then my actual final final question is, is there anything else that you want to share? I guess, in these last, this last part interview, or--this is totally open ended? Or is there anything that you wish I should have--or wish you could have talked about I didn't ask about?

Actually, I'm trying to remember exactly what your focus of your study is too because now I'm like, did I gear these questions correctly towards the objective of what you're doing for your project? I totally for I know like this is for your, for education purposes, and for you to to learn? Yeah

I think, no you did great. I think so, I guess the main goal of my project is just to learn more about I guess what your experience was with being adopted. And you spoke a lot about this, but kind of figuring out like, where you have you struggled with either racial identity or like cultural identity? Since that is something that some adoptees go through as like as you have probably spoken about, there's also about that. But it's just yeah, just worrying about a little bit about your life experience with being a Chinese adoptee just so that, I guess since this is being preserved for a historical archive, so other people can also experience. And maybe learn from it if they were, you know, trying to learn more about Chinese adoptees.

I see. Man, I almost want to say that, uh, some events and experiences I've been through or not? Well, not that serious one. But also, yes, when you hear it sounds a little bit like a soap opera. And I do think in a sense, it's like, I don't make this stuff up like it did happen. The world is a lot smaller than you think sometimes. And I do believe it's hugely impacted by the people you surround yourself with. By putting it out there. consciously, like, who you surround yourself with, because sometimes you do--toxic people are not very good. And at the end of the day, I do love some chocolate. So that's what I end up having to help with life experiences. There you go. Yeah. (Turns computer screen) Oh, wait, I have this sign that says, All you need is love. But a little chocolate now and then doesn't hurt. That's my, that's my motto. That actually drew up this. I actually have a sign that says I have a I have a Hershey's bar. Oh, yeah. There we go. I have a Hershey's bar up there. Yeah. Did you think that the?

Okay, good. I'm glad that I was able to contribute to the, to the objective of what you're doing is like, I don't know if I actually answered the question. So towards her goal, I'm glad. Yeah, I think it's, it's so tough when you're really young, not to like, realize it, and later on, it's not going to bother you. Oh, I feel like that would be the biggest thing that I hope I can like pass on to everybody. Since this is in archives, it's like, really, I think the opportunity to engage in conversations about the harder stuff is important no matter what age you are, at, like being open to hearing perspectives that of course, are different from yours. But yeah, I don't I do think a lot of what's going on could be a result of not talking to your children or to people who are younger, about the importance of like awareness of what their privilege might be, or what other people experience just in the world or has been happening. Not that I have the worldly experience to pass on, because I do know there's a lot going on everywhere in the world fires, hurricanes, famines, genocides. But yeah, not to end on that note. It's mostly, those are my last contributing thoughts. Yeah, and a general grand scheme. It's good to have stuff like what you're doing here with the recording too, is to like, have it available for other people to hear as well. Also being a Chinese adoptee, we're badass. So we're badass because we are all I think, survivors of something that we had no choice in too-resilience.

Yeah.

All right. Well, I think it's a great note to end on.

Reslience.

Well, thank you so much for taking the time to do this and sharing your story with me. I'm really excited that it's going to be available for other people in the near future.

Yeah and I hope you found a couple other adoptees you could speak with that's really cool.

Yeah, I got some leads, we'll see how it goes.

Alright, I mean if you need anybody I can also ask around as well. Oh I do if you want to a guy adoptee, I'm sure the guy adoptee I know would be more than happy to do this

I'm going to go ahead stop the recording and then we can chat.

Okay, we can do that. Yeah.