Ben Smith Interview, November 19, 2020

Okay, so today's date is November 19, 2020. And the time is 1:39 Eastern Time. My name is Mia Owens. And I'm in Birmingham, Alabama. And I will be interviewing Ben Smith, who is in New York City. And Ben do I have permission to record this interview?

Yes, absolutely.

Alright. So I think I want to get started by talking about the beginning of your life. So could you share a little bit about where you were born? And then maybe a little bit about your family?

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Thanks for having me. Really honored to contribute to this project. So, so yeah, my name is Ben Smith. I was born in China in the Hunan Province in in a city called Yueyang. And I was born there in 1993. And then a year later, I was adopted by my parents, by two dads, and I moved to New York City. And then--should keep on going into early childhood and all that?

Yeah keep going.

So yeah, so I was one of the first international adoptions that was done by same sex parents. And there's sort of different legal roundabouts that you have to go with to get that done. Essentially, you have to adopt as a single parent legally. But, uh, but yeah, you know, I moved to New York, when I was one year old. And I grew up right in the middle of the city, in downtown Manhattan, near Washington Square Park. And continue my life and eventually went to elementary school. And around the time of elementary school, when I was five years old, that's also actually when my parents split up. And it was an amicable separation, you know, for different reasons. And then I started spending time and you know, with both dads in two different houses, and luckily, they lived pretty close to each other. So it's a pretty manageable schedule for me, but I would spend half the week at one house half the week at the other house, and continued my life in that way. And then, after--so that was when I was age five. And then from five, until eight, I continued going to school. And when I was eight, one of my dads decided that he wanted to continue, I guess, growing the family. I'm not sure if that's the right way to say it, but you know, wanted to adopt again. And that's when he decided to look into adoption. And at that time, he decided that Vietnam would be the place where he would adopt, and ended up adopting my sister Mabell, when I was eight years old, and she was just three months at the time. So Mabell came into our family. And we, you know, continued living in New York, I continued spending half the weekend at each house, and then and Mabell went to school. And then, you know, after a few years, our family continued to transform. This will be a common theme through through this discussion. But you know, the theme of transformation of change, and hopefully, at the end of the day, you know being okay with all of that and sort of realizing that that's all okay. As long as there's a commitment to the betterment and togetherness of the family. You know, change is not necessarily a bad thing. But yeah, so, you know, after my sister came home after a few years, when I was about 11, or 12 years old, that's when my dads both got into their new relationships, you know long term partnerships, my dad, Sam, who did not adopt my sister Mabell, with Myron, and my dad, Bill, who did adopt my sister, Mabell, with Wendy. And yeah, as you know, that was sort of towards the end of my middle school years. And you know, when I say this out loud, it's sort of reminds me how, how, how complicated it all sounds, and you know, that what kind of dynamic it must be to have different parents, different guardians, different siblings, you know, a pet hound and cats, as well. But uh, when I say it out loud, it definitely sounds sort of wild, sort of crazy, but in my head, it seems it seems to make sense to me and I think that would be the essence or the notion that all of us in the family would also feel so--and you know, one way to highlight that is actually going back, you know, they've been my dads have been in their relationships, partnerships for the past over 10, 10 plus years, so and now they're both married to their partners as well. So, so yeah, and you're one way to highlight the commitment and togetherness of the families. Throughout growing up after they got in their new relationships, we would always still continue to have dinner as a big family. Sometimes we would go to my dad Bill's house and have Thanksgiving dinner there, sometimes we would go to my dad Sam's house, have Thanksgiving there, or have our Christmas brunch, or whatever it may be, or just, you know, have dinner at a restaurant, you know, when the time felt right. But there was, you know, certainly there were ups and downs, certainly there were complications. But as long as that grander vision of, of realizing and understanding and, and committing to, you know, this is our family this this is it's not a normal family. It's not a traditional family. But this is what it is. And this is what works and is right for us. As long as that idea held held true. I think everything else sort of worked itself out in the end.

Do you ever feel--did you feel like there are some challenges of trying to, I guess, reach that, or maybe not reach, but kind of get to that idea of family that you're talking about where you are all transforming and kind of come together, even though there may be so many different moving parts going on?

Yeah, I think that there are certainly challenges. Yeah, there can be. And I say that with the caveat of, of saying that my experiences are only my own. And I think I'm naturally I mean, like innately okay, with with change and flexibility. And maybe that's, I mean, there's a good chance that that's related to my adoption. But I think some of that is ingrained in who I am just going with the flow. But yeah, I think that there certainly are some challenges. I remember when my parents split up, you know, as five years old, I didn't really conceptualize what that actually meant. I knew that I would, now, looking at the bright side, I thought, okay, it was cool. Now, I would have two houses, right. And that would mean, I would have to have most things. And I did you know. But uh, but on the other side, I remember being confused, and not really understanding because none of that was visually or conceptually easy for a five year old kid to understand. And to this day, I've actually realized this recently, but I'm sure that my parents had discussions with me and tried to try to explain what was happening, what separation or divorce meant, at the time, but I completely can't remember any of those conversations. I mean, there's a chance--I should ask them, I should ask them. But I do think probably some my five year old mind at the time just blocked out those conversations. And that's why I can't remember them, because I'm sure that they were tough. And I remember in birthdays after, you know after they separated. After my dad separate I do remember wishing go blowing out the candles and wishing that that they would get back together. That's the extent that's the most to the extent of which I remember feeling distraught about the situation. So yeah, that you know, there were challenges, but none of those challenges were not overcome. Yeah.

Yeah. And then, so kind of going back to the beginning of your story. Um, can you share a bit about why your parents decided to adopt from China specifically, was that something that was really intentional for them? Or I guess how did that process go about for them a little bit more of that?

Yeah. Yeah. Very good question. So yeah, so first and foremost, adoption, international adoption, in the '90s was just starting to become a thing that that same sex parents could even even have at their disposal. Just a little bit. So, you know, it wasn't easy. But you know, my dads went to many different conferences regarding adoption, talked to many, many of their friends, but then also professionals and social workers about what the best options were. And I say best by saying, you know, best plus easiest, you know, certainly facilitation, and ease was, was a deciding factor as well. So after surveying all the different options, at this, at the same time, in the 90s, China had just opened up their doors to international adoption, of course, because of the one child policy. And because of the one child policy, and because there were so many abandoned children. And there's, of course, tons of geopolitical issues that are a side note to that, or central note to that. But yeah, adopting with from China for my dad seems like the easiest path forward. And so that's what they did. Yeah, they adopted from China, they used a social worker, originally, they thought that they were going to be adopting--and yeah the social worker advised them that they had to adopt as a single as a single parent. And initially, they thought that they were going to adopt a baby girl, because there were more girls readily available in China. And they know that baby girl's name was was named Mei. And they had thought that they were going to adopt this baby girl for four months. And then right before going to China, about a month before, they got a call saying, Hey, we, the Chinese government found out that that Bill, one of my dads was only 39, at the time, and he said that the baby girl, you had to be 40 at the time, just because of different regulations. And they said, So we can't give you may, but we found a boy that we can give you and that was me.

That's really interesting, because I get to share a bit about my story. I think.

Yeah I would love to hear.

So I was adopted, under, I guess, kind of description of being special needs. Because I was, I think I just like really small was like, a child or something. But my dad was too young to adopt. I guess what would be considered a normal child. And so they can only adopt someone at that time, who is like, considered special needs, which is why I got adopted. So it's interesting that there's so many weird what, oh, I guess age restrictions or requirements that came into play to--in both are adoptions, I guess.

Yeah. My understanding is that for many geopolitical, geopolitical reasons, China facilitated the the adoption to international Western countries. And the ethical reasoning behind that, of course, it's not all sound is very much not sound. But you know, that that did enable lots of, you know, Western families to to adopt from China.

Yeah, well, thank you for sharing that. Um, I think the next question I want to go into is, um, how did your parents approach I guess, helping understand your adoption, or was that something that you struggled with growing up? Or was it something that was easy to accept? How did that look like that for you?

Yeah. So this is something I think about a lot, because I think my experience is pretty, I'd say, pretty unique to pretty unique in general. But certainly, yeah, okay. Yeah, I would just say my situation is somewhat unique. Here's why. So because my dads were two men adopting in the world that gave them this, that distinguished them as being a non-traditional family, or non-traditional couple to look out and to start a family. And starting on that basis of being a non-traditional family, gave them a unique perspective in thinking, Okay, well, we're going to be having a non-traditional family. We were gay men in the 60s, 70s, and 80s, I guess not 60s, but you know 70s and 80s and 90s. They knew what it was what it felt like to be an outcast and in society. You know, not that they weren't popular guys, they were very popular in their high schools and colleges, but certainly there they were, they were exposed to what it was like to be discriminated against on a national, local, on a national and local level, and certainly within their communities as well. So they, so my dad's over the years, as they grew up and became independent adults, they had to come to terms with who they were, they had to come to terms with embracing who they were. And I think because of that, and because of their sensibilities, when adopting someone that was, by force going to be different, right, and going into going to have a different family dynamic and situation, I think that they were better, better or more capable, in trying to bestow that the level of acceptance of your differences. So I think that did that really well, for me. Maybe not, maybe not consciously. But you know, certainly, certainly they did consciously, but even if not consciously, they bestow that level of appreciation, and embracement of my differences, subconsciously. And that comes just from the fact of of who they were. So I do think that that is unique. And that's not to say that I'm the only person adopted by by same sex parents, because that's, that's not true. There are there are many people like that. But, you know, I think my dads were very good about that. Embracing, you know, encouraging me to embrace my differences. I think that growing up in New York City played a vital, important role in, in developing my character and who I am. I think that, you know, I think in saying these things, I also have to recognize that I benefit from immense privilege from having been adopted by sort of like a progressive New York liberal, and I just mean, open, you know liberally open-minded individuals that were open to thinking about, okay, well, what's been going to struggle with being that he's a Chinese boy, being raised by white parents, in a country that was initially foreign to him. And these are questions that they readily welcomed and thought about, as opposed to just saying, you know, he, he's not going to have an intro, or she's going to grow up thinking that he, you know, that he was here from the start. So, so yeah, I think that they were very good about thinking about all of those differences, that would inevitably be a part of my life. You know, whether or not they were difficult or not, is a different story, but they were conscious of all of that.

Can you talk a little bit more about the community that you grew up around, then?

Yes, yeah.

Can you talk more about that?

Yes. Okay. Yeah. Thanks for reminding me about that. This is actually related to me having grown up in New York. So growing up in New York in the 90s, there, New York was a hub for international adoption, specifically from China as well. I mean, when you think of different Western countries first and then when you think of large cities, you know, New York is right there at the top. So, in my, in my class alone in my elementary school, in pre-K and kindergarten in first grade, there were actually five other Chinese adoptees. I'm just going to get a tissue. [Ben leaves to get tissue] Um, one second.

Yeah, go ahead.

Okay. So yeah, so growing up in New York there in my class, there were actually five other adoptees, adoptees from China that were adopted to--that were transracial adoptees adopted to white American families. And I think that had a profound effect on on my early childhood experience in my class, in elementary school, and you know, this comes from privilege as well it was a very tight knit, but also not a not a cheap, independent private school. But there were 40 students. There were six Chinese adoptees, and there were there were two, in talking about the Asian diversity, there were two non-adoptees that that were raised in Asian households. So when you think about it like that, you know, being an Asian adoptee felt more like the norm than being an Asian child in a, in a in fully the Asian family. So, you know that in, that in addition to my parents saying, you know, well, some some kids--oh that's my clock. [Clock chimes in background] Anyway, so yeah. So having all these adoptees in my very tightly knit community in addition to my dads really explaining well to me that families come in different forms, and they know this better than anyone because they can have a biological family of their own. You know, they would say to me, you know, some some children are are biological children, some some children are adopted some children are this, some children are that. So that in conjunction with seeing families, right, before my eyes being different, and validating my dad's words, that all led to me not only tolerating but understanding and embracing this idea of families being a dynamic fire families being non traditional families being all types of different ways. And I think that helped a ton.

Did that dynamic stayed pretty consistent, um, as you got older, and do you see that kind of just being more in your, I guess, your younger years?

Yeah, so I think that it was especially prevalent. So the non-traditional, specifically, Asian adoptee families were especially readily available in my early childhood years. But luckily, for me, I came, I went to the school in this primary school from pre K, all the way until eighth grade. And these people became my lifelong friends. I mean, they're my best friends at the time. And there's still my very close friends and best friends today, some of them. So, you know, having gone to the school for 10 years, you know, that set a really solid foundation of how I thought about myself in my identity. Now, moving on to high school, I went to, you know, another independent school, and I was the only adoptee in my class of 120. But there was an adoptee the year below me, I think there was another adoptee two years below me. You know, certainly people, people had met adoptees before and people were aware that we existed. It just luck of the dice didn't bless me with six other, you know six adoptees in one class. But at that point, my foundation of identity was was strong enough to be pretty, pretty. Okay. In high school and in college as well. In college there were there were a couple other, adoptees, though I would have thought that there were would have been more, but maybe I was just not as aware of, you know, who. Who they were.

Where did you go to high school in college?

Yeah, so I went to Poly Prep for high school. And that's a high school in Brooklyn. And yeah, I really enjoyed my experience there. I think that they do a good job of, of really encouraging the diverse thought and, and diverse communities. And then I went to college at Babson College, which is a small business focusd school, outside of Boston in the Wellesley--in Wellesley. And and yeah, I enjoy my experience there as well. There--I've always been in very small, tight knit communities, which I think is nice, because then I'm able to have an impact on those communities.

My next question--could you--was the Chinese adoptee community, something that you frequently tried to seek out as a form of like community or did you see yourself kind of like branching out to other groups to or how did that kind of work when you were growing up?

Yeah, so I'm not sure if so, I would say a balance between the two of both actively reaching out, but also passively inbounding my involvement in the community. I think part of who I am. And this might be, this might just be characteristics of my personality. But this also might be a defense mechanism. I'm not totally sure. But the result of who I am and my actions was that I was always very open about my adoption, having two dads, all of the differences within my family, I was very public about that. And I say that it could be a defense mechanism. Because for me, it was easier just to say quickly that I was, you know, I am an adoptee that I have two dads that my sister's from Vietnam, that these differences are here and readily out in the open that way, someone couldn't pry and pass judgment on me without me having had taken that first step. So I've always been extremely open, very public facing, you know, I would I would always stand up in on the I would always, I would often sit on diversity panels in middle school and high school and college to talk about my experiences as as an adoptee with same sex parents. So, yeah, I've always been very open. And in having those discussions and sitting on those panels, sometimes, or often, the community has has reached out to me, which I feel very, very honored because yeah, I should probably be a little bit more well, well read and on adoptee literature. And I'm looking to do that now these days. But, but yeah, and then in, in recent years, I really tried to be more actively engaged in the, in the adoptee communities as well. In New York, there's a few different communities FCCNY is one and I try to go to as many of their meetups as I can, of course, that that all changes with with COVID a little bit, but trying to be involved in some manner, digitally speaking. You know, I'm in a number of adoptee groups on Facebook, and I try to engage in a productive and helpful way to support the communities as best I can. And then, of course, my entire online social YouTube presence is, you know, at least somewhat adoptee related.

Yeah. Can you share your decision to make that YouTube channel? And--

Yes.

Yeah, I guess, like your process of deciding to do that. And then how that kind of grown or changed how you viewed adoption or something like that?

Yes. So growing up, in in elementary, middle high school, college, I've always been, I would say, a community builder. I think that's when I feel most alive when I'm connecting different people from different walks of life, because I see their their faces and their being light up with this expression of understanding someone for their differences and understanding what they've been through and then realizing like, wow, that there are similarities between between us, there's, there's crossover. So, you know, that's why I've always been really passionate about community building. And after college, I, after college, I worked, I founded. Okay, let me let me take a step back. Okay. So after college, I ran a communal living company. And we did, basically what we did is we brought together mostly young, creative professionals, into housing communities with, with the hopes to have them make friends, expand their communities, expand their networks, and to give them meaningul benefit beyond just a roof over their head. So that's what I did initially after college. That's what I'm still doing, but to a smaller extent, as a small business. And recently, I've also started this YouTube channel, as you mentioned, so I started the YouTube channel. You know partly for fun but also partly in part because I want to, I feel like sharing a message sharing a story is one of the most profound ways you can impact someone and their perspective. So I feel like if I have this unique family background if I if I am an adoptee and if other people in the world are close minded to, for example, to gay parents, I mean, you know, beyond gay parents is gay people. Or if people are intolerant to adopt, these are insensitive to the struggles that adoptees deal with. And if through that stigma, adopted children feel shame, or are young LGBTQ people feel shame about who they are, you know, what a sad thing. What, what an unjust thing in the world for anyone to feel shame about who they are as a person. So for me, of course, the YouTube was fun is fun. But it's also about responsibility if I have exposure, and if I have a perspective that can shed light on some of these issues. You know, it's responsibility for me to share, to hopefully encourage more, more diverse perspectives in the world and through that more empathy.

It's this kind of backtracking a little bit, but could you share--how do I want to phrase this? Were there any experiences, I guess that you're talking about where maybe with you, being so willing to, like, share your experiences and such did that ever? Like, what were some challenges with that? I guess, I'm trying to ask. Was there anybody who was, was anybody who was maybe less receptive to that? And what were kind of reactions around your willingness to be open about all of this?

Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I'll preface by saying that I was very privileged to have grown up in the communities that I was a part of just being in New York having gone to these expensive private schools. But you know, to say it plainly. These are privileges that that I absolutely recognize. And I think that my experiences can't be applied to probably the majority of adoptee experiences, because because I was just so exposed in my communities to difference and people were exposed to adoptees, and more. But, yeah, when I felt I, I guess there were two instances of me coming to, to realize that. Yeah, my situation is not the norm. The first, the first example of that was going to school for the first time in pre-K. And I remember this vividly because it happened all the time. But when my parents dropped me off, my two dads dropped me off, I remember feeling. I remember getting there thinking, Oh, like, this is just another day, I was nervous. I was nervous, because I wanted to make new friends. I was nervous, because I hadn't been to school before. And and I wanted to make sure that I was going to be a good student, and all those things that little kids deal with, for their nerves on the first day. But then, after getting dropped off by my parents, I remember over the series of a few days, people, the other little kids would come up to me and say like, Are those your dad's? Like, how are they your dads or, you know, Are you Chinese? You know, They don't look Chinese or they look, they look like American white people. And I'm not sure what the colloquial five year old language was at the time to ask those questions. But that was certainly the sentiment that they were getting at. And I remember vividly, a little girl came up to me, and she asked us that question first. She said, Ben, like, Why? Why do you have two dads? And, and, you know, how are you Chinese? And I remember thinking, like, how do I respond to this little, little girl? How do I respond to this person and make her realize my differences? And then also, how do I make sure that I'm going to be friends with her? So my dads, I don't know if they coached me on this or not. But what I said to her, and to the other people that asked me this question is I said, Well, just like you have a mom and a dad. I have a dad and a dad. And, and as a baby, they adopted me from China. And that, you know, that wasn't so much of an answer as it was an explanation. And in most cases, that was enough. And in most cases, the other little kids would say like, what that's so cool. You know, I want two dads or they would say something else. So it was a very positive supportive environment. In my small communities and and the teachers, of course, you know, they, they, they loved my family, and they loved my dads, and they were friends with all the parents. So all the parents had, you know, there were probably, there was probably some communication that went around in the 90s saying, like, Hey, we have different families here. Please teach your children not to, not to, not to be closed minded, and not to tease people that have different sets of parents or guardians or, or that live with their grandparents or whatever it may be. So there was that. And then, and then in high school. I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna blow nose.

Yeah go ahead.

Over there. Okay, so. And then there was high school. And I think high school is a time where even the most popular kids and most competent kids will go through periods of, of just like typical high school banter or like, identity struggles or anything like that. And I, you know, in high school, that was the first time that--well, yeah, in high school, that was, I guess, in combination with my age, and in combination with having gone to a school that was deep in Brooklyn, and that had had people coming from all over New York City and all over the boroughs as opposed to just around the Washington Square Park, Union Square area. I was I was exposed to different political beliefs as well, political beliefs as well. So so I was more aware of that there were there were kids from Staten Island there, and you know, Staten Island as, as you may or may not know, is, is, is heavily right leaning, where my dads were always and are still, you know, very progressive, leaning and left on the spectrum. So as a result of that, I wasn't quite, I wasn't as open as I was middle school sharing that I was--I mean being adopted was sort of, it was always a given because my name is Ben Smith. And Smith is not a traditionally Asian last name. So that I was always naturally outed through my name. So there's nothing I could do about that. But for example, I, you know, I was on the baseball team, and I was on, you know, the track team for a while and and all of these things, and I think initially getting there, I was just a little bit more conscious of, if I shared that I had two dads, for example, that there, there's the possibility for other people to pass judgment, and not in a good way, in an ignorant way. So yeah, in high school, I was more conscious of that. There was only one experience where someone actually said something sort of mean to me. And it was after, after our community diversity day, I stood up and I explained my family background, just for those that were interested. And someone came up to me after that, and he, you know, he's a kid from Staten Island, just a knucklehead kid. And he he said, yo, like, Ben, no one cares about, no one cares about you, or your dad's, or what. You know, something like that. Or maybe he just said, No one cares about your dad's, you know, maybe he just didn't want to hear about a kid being raised by two dads, because that that wasn't in his comfort zone. I think and hope that, you know, his mind has changed since I think has. But at the time, and in speaking with other people, people would probably have assumed that that was more of the norm. And, and for me, and it's a privilege that that wasn't the norm. It just wasn't the case. You know, I had very supportive communities throughout throughout my growing up.

Can you talk a little bit more about those leadership positions that you mentioned earlier with being on those diversity committees and was something that was already within the school or is it something that you helped form? Like what that look like where you were growing up?

Yeah, so it's most of the leadership positions that--well, I was always a student government person. So in middle school, I was interested to government in high school, I was also in student government. And in college the same, I was always either a Class Rep or a class president or something like that. And, yeah, I, and then through that position, admissions counselors or the school leadership would ask me to sit on a panel for the diversity day. Or to talk with a prospective student that had a unique family background. So those, yeah, so I was always very readily willing, and wanted to help out those those those families and students that that were interested in my experiences. But yeah, in terms of like, adopted communities there, because there were six adopted children in my middle school. Yeah, I remember. we would we would have, I think we would have meetings or like lunch, every now and again. Actually, what it was, is we would have diversity lunches, I'm not sure what the official name was. But we would have diversity lunches with not only the is adopted, but the people of color. All the people of color in our school. And we would talk about, you know, different things, and it would just sort of be like a, like a check in with one of the school's administrators. Ms. Cooper's her name. She's a very lovely woman and administrator. But, uh, but yeah, we would have lunches to make sure that everything was going along all right. And I think that that was sort of the early, I think that was early on in schools thinking about how can we incorporate diverse communities? And how can we make sure that they are okay, do they are the presence of, you know, a white majority school, or community? So, so yeah, in high school, I was also part of student government, as I mentioned, but also part of the Asian society. And I sort of helped start that, but I really can't take credit for that, because it was mostly my friend. But yeah, it was more so just me being who I was. Like me being an Asian person in a predominantly white school, I would say was effect enough, or it had an, it had a material effect on the entire student body, because they were exposed to not only me being an Asian guy, but also knowing that I was an adoptee and knowing that I had two dads, and all of that, and then them being exposed to that, in itself. I would like to think, had some sort of significance to them.

When you had those conversations with administration about how things were going, would they pretty receptive about maybe like making changes? Or, I guess, listening to you guys? Or was it? Like, how did that work out? As far as like, was it effective do you think? Or was there still something that could have been done that maybe helped, like, promote that sense of diversity within the school?

Yeah, I think that. Well, I guess it's a tough question, just because I know, the conversations that I had then, and I can't remember all the conversations, but they would be different, you know, had I had them now. And the some of the reason is just because you know, it's looking back in time, but some of the other reason is because I'm much more well informed, and have developed who I am over the last 10 years. So I do always remember that the schools that I went to were, for the most part, very receptive to diverse communication and diverse I guess embracing any type of diverse initiative. And sometimes they they wouldn't live up to those expectations. And sometimes, and we're seeing this now with with lots of turnover and lots of lots of things that were not okay. Coming out just in the last in the last few months. But I think that they did make a conscious effort back when I was in school. But yeah, I can't remember I can't remember too many of the details with with those conversations. I guess you know, honestly. So what I would say is the best thing that they could practice is to actually make their schools more diverse. And how does that look? Well, that looks, you know, by that looks, that is implemented through making the student body more diverse. So whether that's accepting more people of color, whether that's whether that's offering more scholarships or funding to families of color, whether that's, you know, providing any type of initiative, I think what they mostly did, I wouldn't say mostly what, what I was often a part of were diversity panels, for the school, but also diversity panels that talk to prospective students. And I think that that's a that's a start, but it's not. It's not like the end all be all, by any means.

Yeah, that makes sense. And I think like, yeah, definitely makes sense with, especially things changing now, maybe in schools.

Because me talking to prospective students that are coming from families of color doesn't mean that that family can afford the school, it doesn't mean that their family is going to attend the school. It just, it's, it's nice, because it's words, its thoughts and prayers, as as people say, but, but that does need to be backed up by some sort of tangible action. So, so yeah, I would say lots of these schools are, they have a start in place. But at the end of the day, the student bodies needs to be more diverse. And some of the schools that that I went to, are trending in that direction. And some of them are not, some of them are very focused on bringing in like, very, very, you know, like New York elite families. So there's a certain balance that that needs to be met. And that would benefit all of the students as well.

Yeah, for sure. And then I think the next topic, I kind of want to go into is, um, maybe your relationship with, I guess, like, Asian culture, or, like, since we are, well we both are but, since you're both adopted from China? Did you ever? Like what was your connection with? Maybe exploring that part of your life as being adopted from China? Like, was it? Do you see yourself looking into Chinese culture? Or like researching it? Or were you? Did it ever, like, come across something that you want to be--or that you're interested in? Or is it kind of just? Yeah.

Yeah, so I would say, um, I would say I'm very interested in Chinese culture. Not to the extent that I was an East Asian Studies major or anything like that, or that I'm constantly reading Chinese literature. Not to that extent, but to the extent that Chinese culture comes into my life, whether it be through, you know, events, or food or friends or anything like that, like, I'm 100% receptive to that. And that's not just me trying to--trying to fill a void. That's because, like, I'm genuinely interested. So, there's that I think that while growing up, I think while growing up my interest in Chinese culture was more passive, you know, I would never I would never push away any type of knowledge or information or or cultural experience that was Chinese, but I don't think that we actively seek that out as a family beyond what was easily available to us. You know, like my parents were friends with lots of people that were were Chinese, other Chinese American or Chinese immigrants. And you know, like we would often have dinner at at our family friends houses or or we could celebrate your the new year or or autumn festival or something like that. But uh but yeah, I I guess I would say--I would say my view on my involvements to Chinese culture is, is better explained by my view, into who I am as a person, which is like radical self acceptance of who I am, where I am and where I'm going. And to further explain that that means, like, I, I know, an okay amount about Chinese culture. I wish I knew more and I I'm on that path. But I'm also like, totally okay realizing that I didn't grow up in a Chinese family, I grew up in New York and my set of experience is such that I was able to learn what I was able to learn. And I am 100%. Okay, and feel comfortable with that. [Clock chimes] So, there's my clock. So, so yeah, I would say like, that's really the philosophy of most of my life, but you know, radical self acceptance of my differences and who I am and who I become and who I'm becoming, which is why my YouTube channel name is Becoming Ben Smith. But, uh, but yeah, like, Am I learn--am I hoping to continue my, my journey of learning more about Chinese culture, my background, my ancestry, potentially my X, Y, and Z as relates to my ethnic roots? Yes. Have I done much of that in the past? Some. Do I feel shame about not having done more or not having done less? No, I don't feel any shame about that.

Have you ever had the chance to visit China again? Or? If not, do you have an interest in visiting China and maybe going on like, a journey of some kind of self exploration there? Something like that?

Yeah, so I, I went back to China when I was 17. I went back with my dad, Sam, who did not go over to adopt me because you know, you can only adopt as a single parent at the time as a gay couple. So I went back with my dad, Sam, when I was 17. And I actually went back is a joint trip with my friend Lily, who was adopted from the same orphanage as me. And she coincidentally has two moms. So growing up, you know, we were we were family friends. So we all went back together. And and yeah, it was you know, being a 17 year old guy at the time. I can't say that I was the most in touch with my emotions and feelings. So with that said, I did that journey. I did that journey. I did that trip. And it was more of an informational trip. For me. It was me taking in the sights the food. We went back to the Hunan Province, we went back to Yueyang, my orphanage, a social welfare institute. And for me, rather than, you know, an emotional awakening, it was more of me wanting to see like, okay, where was the building? Where was the location that I lived for the first months of my life? Like, does this--is this place still intact? Is it ethically run? Is there enough funding for them to provide basic resources? Well, hopefully more than basic resources for the children that are there? Are there any caregivers there that that remembered Lily and me? You know, I would love to meet them. I would love to say, you know, Hello, and thank you and, and all of that. So it was a very informational trip for me looking back now I can I can sort of take away different emotions that I was feeling then. But, uh, but yeah, I think it absolutely warrants a trip back. And, you know, maybe more than a trip maybe maybe it warrants me spending an extended period of time. In, in maybe in China maybe in in the city that that I was born. But, uh, you know, it's not something that I have a set plan for yet.

Okay, and then, okay, so the next part I want to go into a little bit more is I guess, how--Okay, sorry I'm trying to figure out how to phrases this

Yeah, no worries, I have to think a lot about things so.

I want you to be more into your family again. I know. You that you didn't really want to, you're not going to speak for your sister's experiences, of course. But what was that relationship like with having a sibling, another sibling who was adopted from, I guess she's from Vietnam. So he's a little bit different. But how how is that like when you make the first sign that you're going to be having a sister or? Yeah, I guess just was that relationship like with your sister when you were younger? And I guess growing up?

Yeah, yeah. So I remember thinking it was, I remember thinking it was normal that my dad, and my dad said to me, he's thinking about adopting another child. And I remember thinking like, Oh, this is cool. This is normal. Like, this is how families grow, in many ways. And I remember my friends would have sisters or brothers or whatever. And I remember thinking like, Okay, well, this is the progression of our family. I, one of my dads is going to adopt, and, and yeah, so it felt normal to me. I actually went over to Vietnam, when I was eight years old to adopt. Well, yeah, to join my dad in adopting my sister. And I remember meeting her at, you know, she was brought to our hotel. And I remember seeing her and thinking like that, well, one being excited, but also to just thinking, you know, this is this is a normal, this is the normal, this is a normal event in life. Here's my sister. Through adoption, I was also adopted. And, you know, this is this is now our family. This is how our family has expanded and will continue. So, yeah, that was my, those were my initial thoughts. Growing up. I guess, you know, I, I sort of alluded to this in the past, but I didn't think much about having been Asian in a white family. I didn't think much about that being weird. It's not like I, I would never, I never avoided being Asian or my Asian-ness, or being Asian in a predominantly white community. I never avoided that. But it was it never felt weird to me. And like, you know, I wouldn't speak for my sister on that. I'm sure that her experiences are different. Or maybe different. But yeah, I think that having an Asian sister probably probably helped. Helped me further feel like this was normal. Not that we strive for normality in my family, by any means. But yeah, you know that that's sort of the best way I can describe it. And yeah, my sister and I had seven, seven and a half years gap. So there were certainly lots of like, sibling, just, you know, sibling banter. You know, I would try to teach her things as an older brother. And, you know, sometimes she would love to learn the things that I wanted to teach her, and sometimes she would refuse. And now she's 19. So she's, you know, she's a young adult, and our relationship has only gotten closer over the years. Yeah, I think as a beginning, it was more so me being like, an older brother wanting to wanting to, like encourage her to way live her life in a certain way. And now it's more, me realizing that the best thing I can do as an older brother is to empower her to amplify and encourage her to live the life that she wants. You know, as long as that's a healthy life, so. So yeah, now I'm trying more than ever to do that. And sometimes it's tough. Like, sometimes I still tell her like, okay, she should be doing this or spending money in this way or like, you know, spending her time in this way. But at the end of the day, I just want her to do you know, what she's interested in doing.

And then next thing I kind of curious about this is a little bit away from like, the strictly like, just adopt the portion of your life, but I was curious to hear about, like, what kind of hobbies or I guess extracurricular things you did growing up? And like, if you still do those, or if it had an impact on you?

Yeah, so my, my biggest I guess, school hobby was always student government. I mean part of it is just probably because I like, I like the sound of my own voice. And I like to be able to stand up and say, random stuff in front of the school. Part of is because, like, you know, I like to have an impact on the communities I'm involved with, and that continues to this day. So I think that student government gave me that initial structure. And it gave me the, it gave me the results and and motivation that I needed to know that okay, if I voice my opinion for something, if I put in, you know, some contributions or work like okay, that there can actually be changed that that's made here, whether that's like improving the school lunches, whether that's, you know, doing funding for, you know, new clubs that I was interested in, or whether that was, you know, running a certain type of cultural night. Like, those are the those are the things that come to my mind when I think of student government. But those were all, innately those were all driven through student advocacy. So, yeah, there's certainly lots of power with what you can do within your own communities. And you know, where I see that in my life now is the housing communities that I currently run. I also see that in--also I tried to I try to meaningfully impact the adoptee communities that I'm a part of now, like Subtle Asian Adoptee Traits on Facebook, which is a great Facebook community. And, you know, that can, that can come through the form of just commenting and sharing a post, or sharing my thoughts on on someone else's post, or that can come through, you know, that can come through me making a video about a particular issue that I care about, and, and hoping that other people care initially, or maybe don't care at the beginning. And after watching the video, you know can, that maybe their mind has changed a little bit in the direction that I see, you know, is best. So yeah, it depends.

And then could you talk a little bit more? I know, we touched on it briefly. But can you talk a little more about your college experience? And how that led you to find your, I guess, kind of career in the housing communities?

Yeah, so thinking about how I should frame this, so. Okay, so the most profound college experience that I had, and this is gonna sound sort of weird. And this is also like, this is me being lucky to have been able to do this, but it was studying abroad in Madrid. And I studied abroad in Madrid, just because, you know, I had, I had a basic, you know, understanding of Spanish. I'm still an intermediate Spanish speaker, but I'm not, I'm not, I'm not great. And initially, I was going to go to initially, I was going to go to Shanghai, and then and then Hong Kong. But for whatever reason, the scheduling worked best for me to go to Madrid. So I chose Madrid. And that was just an amazing experience, because that showed me what it was like living abroad internationally, seeing like a completely different way of living and the world and how people thought about, you know, how to spend their time. And then it also gave me the opportunity to travel by myself all over Europe, and North Africa to Morocco, as well. But, uh, yeah, through those experiences, that's when I think I developed this passion for community building as it relates to housing like physical housing. So I stayed in, I think, maybe 12, different hostels during my five month, or four month period in Madrid. And I traveled mostly by myself. You know, what I would do is I would just look for the cheapest flight one weekend, and I would book it and usually flights in Europe at the time were very cheap, you know, like under $60 round trip to a different country. And hostels were extremely cheap as well. You know, at least for a Westerner, I should say, affordable for a Westerner. But yeah, maybe hostels would be like, $10 a night or $12 a night. So for a weekend, and if the food was cheap as well, which I would eat lots of cheap food, you know, you're looking at $100 to go for, to go for three days in a completely new culture and a place in the world that I had never been to. And then on top of that, I'm going by myself so being--and this is the benefit of me, like really trying to get myself out there and liking doing that. But I would go to a new place I would go to stay in a hostel, I would be forced to make new friends in that hostel. Because experiences in my opinion are better shared, or are better when shared. Memories are better when shared. And that really led me to understanding and being enamored with this idea of physical space, being a great catalyst and bringing people together, specifically through hostels. So after graduation, I was just looking at different types of, actually, I'll go back, like, you know, lots of these hostel experiences, I'm still good friends with these people that I met five years ago over the course of one weekend. Because of the, the experience and that, that awe that you have that like that cultural mystification that you have when you're in another country, and when you're traveling, and you have that certain alert, and I'm not saying that sustainable, but that's how I felt at the time and, and that memory still persists today. So, you know, back to this idea of, you know, physical space, being a great catalyst and bringing people together. After graduation, I, of course, was was looking for different jobs and looking for different industries that I want to involve myself with. And I looked at different hostel companies, I looked at different housing companies. And this idea of communal living, or co-living was just burgeoning as a new industry. So I ended up finding this other guy to work with. And, you know, I joined him, and then eventually, we ended up co-founding this other company. And now that company has moved to San Francisco. And I've remained here in New York, and now I just run a small, small business here.

And what year were--was your study abroad in Madrid?

2015. So I graduated in 2016. And and yeah, my study abroad was my junior year, junior year, spring semester,

And you said, you're still doing and working with the housing, or housing community?

Yeah, so I currently want run one communal house in Brooklyn, New York. It's a house of 20 people, mostly people coming from outside of the city, for to, New York for the first time. And the idea is that, you know, New York is, is a place with immense opportunity and tons of potential, but that potential can be squandered if, if you're not in the right supportive community. And, you know, the extent to which you can, instantly you can move into our house and instantly have new friends and have a network and have people to bounce ideas off of or people to, you know, to look over even your resume, before applying to a job like, to the extent that that's true. Which, in my opinion, it's very true. Like there's there's tons of value in having a local, small, tightly knit community that's based around this idea of, of, you know, physical space.

Yeah, that sounds all really cool. I never heard of something like that before.

Yep. Well, you're welcome to visit any time.

Well, thank you.

If you're planning a New York move, you know, you're welcome to move in as well. We have, we have three adoptees, including myself living here.

Whoa okay. That's so cool. Have you seen? How's that been during I guess since we are living in a pandemic currently. How has that been with, I guess a lot of things being kind of strange and uncertain right now.

Yeah. So what's nice about the house and there being, you know, a number of people here is that this sense of community that I think lots of people are yearning for and feel like they've lost, that doesn't exist quite as much here because, you know, like, we're all friendly in the house, we're all for the most part, we're all friends with each other. So, you know, we'll have movie nights, if someone feels like they have, you know, just talking about COVID. Like, you know, if someone feels like, they have a little bit of cold or anything like that, you know, they they stay in their room for the most part, and they try to, you know, not interact or wear a mask or something like that. But yeah, from the community side, it has felt like, you know, it's felt better in being part of the house. From the business side, you know, some people lost their job, and you know, and had to move out unexpectedly. So, you know, that was, yeah, that was tough. I mean, not speaking about the business side, but that was that was tough for sure, for them, you know, wanting to have continued their New York journeys and having that be cut short.

Yeah, for sure. Um, and then, I guess, since we're on this kind of side with how things are at--

Yeah, by the way, don't worry about time or anything like that.

Okay good.

Feel free to ask any questions that you want.

other question I've been asking. Some of the interviewees that I've been, or any of us have been doing is how, especially at this summer, like the Black Lives Matter protests and how that's kind of changed the conversation, well, I don't know if it changed, but kind of put more focus on the conversation about race in the United States. I was wondering how you've seen that as like a factor within, it could either be like within New York, like where you're living, or it could within your digital community, like either those, like communities? Have you seen? Have you seen maybe change within that? Or if more people talking about it? Or if threwasn't change that like was a case of that?

Yeah, well, first, I'll take a step back and think about our relation to, specifically our relation to making sure that there is a push towards equality in the US, and specifically a push for, for Black Americans' lives and rights and, and, you know, existences of as human beings in the US. So, I mean, I think, I think it's been interesting to see on Facebook, you know, I'm part of these adopted communities. And it's been interesting to see our very niche and unique place in the discussion for all of this. And one example that I can think of in, in highlighting what I've just said, is, you know, of course, we're people of color and the United States views us as, as Asian Americans, and when we're in a room, let's say, when we're in a room, chances are, we're going to be the minority in that room. So we have this tricky position in American society where we are people of color. But we also, that's not to say that we don't benefit from a lot of the economic privileges that that white families or generational, white families have benefited from over the past generations. So, you know, like, of course, I consider myself an immigrant because I immigrated to the United States. But I don't like the struggles that, that my Asian American immigrant families deal with are different than the struggles that I deal with. And there's some overlap. And there's, there's some things that do not overlap whatsoever. So it's been interesting, because I think that our differences have been highlighted in a way that they haven't exactly been publicly highlighted before, just because of social media, because of the time because of Black Lives Matter because of all of this. So it's been it's been, it's been great. It's been a great time to reflect on that, I would say, and I think I've been more conscious, and probably a more we've been pushed to have a more holistic perspective, when I think about our position in society. So, yeah, you know, that that's sort of like the first that that's my comment on like, the holistic situation, the whole of the situation. But, uh, going back to your question, and directly answering--could you ask it again?

I can tray, I was also kind of spitballing. So I was wondering, how, or if it has changed in the conversations that you've had either within your community like, locally or maybe like community digitally, since you do have the YouTube channel, but what that's what like over the past, I guess it's half a year now. Almost. Yeah, just what that kind of looked like or if it's changed, or if it hasn't then, why, or like, what's, you know been kind of the situation with that?

Okay. Yeah, no, I'm just I'm just, I'm thinking of my answer.

Yeah, take your time.

So well, yeah, I guess I mean, first and foremost, all of much of the discussion around Black Lives Matter has just been the the goal has been to amplify voices that have been suppressed and have been unheard over not just the past year, but the past centuries. And I think what that's done for me is that's really and I guess I sort of, you know, was getting at this previously, but what what that's done for me is that's really made me reflect and think about my position in American society and how I can best amplify my voice to best effect, change for underserved communities, underserved people that that are that feel left out or feel unheard. So, you know, in thinking and thinking about that, I think about my differences, I think about my family, I think about being an adoptee, I think about like being an an Asian man. All of those things come into play, when considering what I do with my life. And that's related to, you know, what messages I'm trying to get out into the world. So, that's related to YouTube, of course, that's related to, you know, any type of writing that I do. So when I think about my YouTube channel, like there's always this balance that I have, and that I struggle with, with YouTube, but I want to make sure that my YouTube channel is enjoyable to me, and that I'm making fun videos, because, yeah, like, I want my editing and my process to just be fun. And but I also want it to be impactful, you know, in a meaningful way. And I think that the best way to do that is to talk about things that I have direct experience with. So that's what I've done in the past, and I'm trying to do more of this in the future. I've talked about adoptee issues, I've talked about this idea of one of the first things adoptees hear oftentimes when we say to a stranger that we're adopted is, you know, wow, like, You're so lucky, right? Or you must be so grateful. Or the comment will be focused around the parents being thanked or adopting us, as opposed to us being strong individuals that are blessing our parents with, you know, with a family or with you know, with the, with the expansion of their family. So, you know, I did a video about that, and that was a more serious video, but it was really fulfilling because of the message that I was able to share. So, so yeah, I mean, you know, certainly after all of these discussions of injustice, and race, and, and, and progression, because, you know, it all has to center around, you know, where we're going. Yeah, I'd like to make sure that my, my foothold in, in my videos is is is meaningful and like, is significant in taking steps towards a better community and society for everyone. So, yeah, I Well, I don't want to repeat myself, too much. I'd like to go in circles. But yeah, I think what people should expect on my YouTube channel is more fun videos, of course. So maybe those are New York related videos. I think those videos are still important in adopted communities and LGBTQ family communities as well, because me living my life and me, having fun, and this sounds a little bit self involved a little bit self entitled. But I think there's also some truth to this, but me living is example, that these types of families and these types of differences can can succeed in, in a divisive world. So just by virtue of me living my life, like there, there is some value there. As long as I'm living in like a way that's fulfilling to me. So those will be fun videos, but then I'm also going to have, I shouldn't call it fun and not fun, but those will be sort of like light hearted videos. And then I'm also going to have serious, more serious videos where I talk about the struggles or the benefits of having same sex parents, or I talk about maybe, you know, the most common themes or conversations or struggles that that adoptees have, you know, when growing up. So, those things are all on the horizon. And, and I think that the combination of all those things, I think, and this is subject to change, but I think that's what I'm best suited to to know to get out in the world.

Yeah, that all makes sense. That's really cool, that you have that platform that you can use to you know, share those stories with other people. This might be kind of redundant again, but I was wondering I guess what are your hopes for the future? I guess this could either be with the channel or maybe if we're speaking more broadly, I guess for the future of other Asian Americans or Chinese adoptees like, what do you hope might like change in the future? Or that's very broad but.

Yeah, well, I think it's broad. But I think, you know, your question is intentionally broad, and I think it's especially relevant in today's world of polarity and divisiveness. I mean, I think we saw with this election, and oh that's my clock. [Clock chimes] I think we saw with this election more than ever, the, the tendency to, to, you'll pick one side or the other, and the tendency to, you know, after choosing one side to really hate on on any and everything else. And I don't think that's always been the case. And I mean, I think that President Trump really was just more destructive than any president in our modern time in thinking about, like race relations and thinking about how communities involve themselves with other communities. And, and, yeah, so to the extent to which we like, can go forward, I think that has to be a path of, of remedy, like, there has to be a path of repair. So. So yeah, I mean, I think that will take time. And I think that's the amplification that we're seeing through Black Lives Matter and other movements. But, you know, what, what's sad is that, you know, a movement, like Black Lives Matter, which seems like it should just be universally recognized, like, of course, Black lives matter. The sad truth is that, that pushes pretty much half of the country, but, you know, maybe maybe less than half the country, hopefully less, that pushes a lot of people in a in a direction that's further away from from this idea and utopia of togetherness. So, so yeah, so I think we have a lot of work to do. And I think that I would like to contribute to that work. I mean, on a on a higher scale, but I think that the way that I'm best able to contribute is just through sharing my story, other people's stories and perspectives, through, you know, through through the internet, whether that's YouTube, whether that's, you know, forums and Facebook groups, or just conversation, local conversations with with people that are that are near and around me.

And what are, especially as people are trying to, I guess, learn more and listen more to other stories, what are some resources that I guess either you've consulted, or that you would recommend for people to, I guess, lean more into that conversation?

Yeah, so you're talking about resources for adoptees?

I guess. I mean, yeah that could be--maybe let's go with adoptees first and then we can that we can talk about more generally?

Okay. Yeah, so this is something that this is something that I guess I have a little bit of troubles speaking on because resources have always been very readily available to me. I'm not, I'm not talking about like financial resources, but I'm talking about resources have community. Resources of people being somewhat similar to me, and that they were adopted as well or had non-traditional families. So like, I know that lots of adoptees are adopted to a town or city where they're the only person of color in that town. And I can't even begin to imagine what what that would be like, because I've never had that experience. And someone telling me what their experience is like, like, you know, that that for me that I can only think about that from a place of sympathy. Like I can't empathetically think about that because it's not--never my experience. But I read some of these, I'm not sure if you've seen in some of these posts, but I read some of these posts on Facebook, in the adoptee Facebook groups, and some of them are really disheartening because some adoptee, well many adoptees struggles with race and integration into communities that are predominantly white or predominately conservative or predominantly just not accepting of who they are, like that sounds, that sounds extremely challenging. And that sounds extremely, you know, potentially traumatic as well. So I think that the best resource, first and foremost is like life experience. And I'm going to say this with, I'm going to say this with a big grain of salt of realizing that not everyone has this privilege. But the extent to which adoptees are not exposed to diversity, I think the best thing that an adoptee can do then is to move to a place that is more diverse than where they're currently living. So if they're living in a small, small city, in the United States, or in the world, I think that one of the most profound things they can do, and this is not easy, financially speaking, or emotionally speaking, but I think that one of the best things that they can do is move to a place like New York, or it doesn't need to be New York can be Seattle, or it can be Portland, or it can be, you know, DC, or it can be Austin, Texas, or something like that. But to physically move your being into another place. In my opinion, there's nothing that can have more of a significant impact on that person, their character, their experiences, and there's nothing that can develop them more as a person. And yet that that will truly allow them to, to learn and become who they are. Beyond that, so yeah, so first and foremost, I would say, like, just getting up and, and not leaving everything behind, like, that's still part of your life, but realizing that you're moving forward now to a new stage of your life. And that's specifically talking about some of these adoptees that have some of these adoptees that have posted really, really tough things to read about, about where they live and who their families are, etc. Other resources. Okay, good. Okay. So, I guess, you know, a more conventional, more conventional answer for for resources would be to, yeah, I like just look at YouTube. I mean, YouTube is great, because there's not, there's not a middle person in the exchange of an adoptee's perspective. And the end viewer. So I can share my story on YouTube, with maybe an adoptee that hasn't ever met another adoptee. And they can learn from my experience, and then they can watch another adoptee and they can hear a completely different experience. And maybe that experience completely differs and contrasts to mine, which is totally okay. Because what the adoptee viewing both of our experiences learns is that, well, each adoptee experience is completely individual and completely different from from each other. And once you realize that you come to accept and embrace your own differences and your own truths and your own story. And, you know, that result is, is incredible, you know, that result allows them to feel comfortable in who they are, and who they're becoming. So, I would say a resource like YouTube, that's not that's not like a academically sound resource, but I think that that's that, you know, socially and colloquially speaking like that, that is a very real resource. And then for adoptees, as well, joining a adoptee Facebook groups, and not all of them are as active as others. But joining a group that I think has diverse perspectives, and that feels mostly supportive, hopefully, I think, does a lot for someone that might not have access to as many community resources as as, you know, some other adoptees might have.

Yeah, this all sounds like really awesome resources. And I think yeah, I think you're right in saying that. Everyone, you know, has a really valuable experience to share through, you know, their stories on the internet, which I think is really cool, I guess. I mean, it's also kind of what we're doing right now I guess too. I'm okay, I'm trying to see if there are any other--

Oh yeah, there's one more thing I would actually say. So I, well, I think that, so so yeah. So I think something that is maybe I think something that's under--okay, let me think about how I can phrase this. Okay, I think something that's under-accounted for is parents that are young parents that have adopted children, or couples that are seeking to adopt currently, either internationally or nationally, domestically, or through the foster care system. I think the under sung heroes if that if that's the word. I think that there needs to be more communication between adult adoptees or young adult adoptees, their experiences, and what they believe are best practices for parents of adopted children. Because usually, most resources, so this goes back to like true literature and academia. But most resources, most resources for parenting, and parenting of adopted children are written by parents that have either not adopted or that have adopted, and that excludes the perspective of the adoptee. And that's the most important perspective. So I think that if you're a responsible parent that is adopting, I think you have to consider as many adoptee voices as you humanly can. And I think that there needs to be some sort of central place for parents to learn and understand and, and do their best job as a parent to do the best job as they can as a parent. And that comes from listening to our voices. So and when we think about National Adoption Awareness Month, lots of adoptees, of course, have have tried to rename it National Adoptee Awareness Month. And I think they go hand in hand. But I think that, you know, that makes a lot of sense. So, just recognizing that the conversation should be centered around--the conversation of adoption should be centered around adoptees, and everything else is secondary. And that that includes adoptees as children, that includes adoptees as adults. And that includes, first and foremost perspectives of adoptees in regards to their child in regards to their parents parenting, and more.

Yeah, I would be an interesting thing to see. Because I wonder how much of this is a product of like the amount of time we've been distance from when people first started adopting internationally, and how much like, catching up there is, as far as like going back and seeing what those people have experienced? It'll be interesting to see if, like in the future, there are more, I guess, studies or I guess this more academics, I guess, if there are other like resources that like that, that do come out, where people are trying to interact with that more and trying to collect those ideas or those stories for and experience.

Yeah, I mean, while you're on to that right now.

I guess that's true.

So you're, you're doing something that I think is really impactful, not only to our generation of adoptees, but to, you know, future generations and generations beyond that. So it's good work.

I mean we'll see. I feel like it's been it's been really cool for me to just since I may have a Chinese adoptee to have the opportunity to have these conversations, other people were adopted, because like you said, like all of our experiences are different and shaped by the places where we grow up and the experiences that we look forward to have so there's a lot that goes into play with adoption for sure that maybe people who first decide to adopt they didn't initally realize. Okay, I had a list of questions so I'm going to look at it really quick to make sure there's nothing I'm missing. But this is like a total aside, but like we were talking, we were talking before you mentioned that your dad's is an oral historian or I was just curious to see like.

Yes.

If that has informed anything about how you practice, that community building or how you engage with like other audiences through your YouTube channel or anything like that.

Well, yeah, I should say that, you know, probably should more he, he's, he actually went back to school recently to, you know, just as a graduate. I'm not sure what yeah, he went back to school recently to become an official oral historian after having worked in publishing for many years, so. But he's always been interested in history. Has that informed my thoughts on community building?

That was the second part of the question, but if it didn't you don't have to speak to that. But I just curious if it did or not?

Yeah, well, what I would say is, I think, I really admire. So going back to community building, going back to who my parents were, and who we were as a family in New York City in the 90s. And then early 2000s. Yeah, I looked at the different relationships that my, my dad's fostered among my parents, friends and among their friends. And I can confidently say that my dads' friends were among the most diverse group of friends that, that I saw, certainly more than any, any group of friends from my friend's parents, if that makes sense. So the people that came over to our family's house, my family's houses came from all different walks of life. And for me, I think that was transformative, in in many regards, because that allowed me to, to see and to build my own personal community in a way that was intentionally diverse and intentionally taking into account different opinions. And you know, it's not like all my friends are the same exact type of people, because because they because they aren't, you know, I relate with some people in certain ways, that are related to one topic, maybe adoption, because I have many adoptee friends. But I relate to other people in completely different ways, whether that's something like personal or professional, or related to my interests and hobbies. And I realized that the connection between two people is not bound by any one thing, like, you know, there's an enormous amount of, of overlap and collaboration and, and common ground that connects to individuals. And usually more often than that, that, you know, that's very possible. being friends with just about anyone, if they're a nice and moral human being is, is more than possible. And I think I saw that through, you know, through my dads, you know, my dads' friendships with other people.

Yeah, no, it makes sense, especially with, like, what you're saying about where you growing up being such a good community of diverse opinions, or, I guess, diverse experiences. I think we've gone through the majority things, oh, I did have a question about this, I guess you went over this a little bit like kind of like family traditions and like, what things look like as far as extended families, and you do have a lot of family members.

Yeah that's a good question. So, so just, you know, family traditions, what we do as a family? So yeah, you know, I have a decently large family. So on one of my dad's sides, on one of my dad's sides, he has four other siblings, he's one of five and that my other dad's side, he is one of two so he has a sister. So I've spent a lot of time hanging out with cousins and aunts and uncles and grandparents and generally what that looks like is on Christmas every year, I go to you know, we're not we're not very religious family or anything like that. But on Christmas every year. I on Christmas Day, I wake up with, I wake up in one house in my dad Bill's house, and we celebrated Christmas that morning and then on that same day, after brunch, I go down to DC where my grandparents my dad Sam side and his sister and my dad Sam actually moved to DC, the DC greater area as well. But for my entire life, you know, I've been going down there. So I celebrate with you know, with my dad and extended family there. And then yeah, with, you know, with my dad Bill's family, because it's a little bit of a larger family, there's, there's some, there's some spread, spread out a little bit. So, but yeah, we try and make the rounds, you know, we'll go to Michigan, which, you know, there's, there's lots of family there, and we'll see everyone, whether that's in the summer, sometimes that's been in the fall around Thanksgiving. And, and yeah, yeah, I would say, the traditions are not so much in tradition of, of events or anything like that the tradition is more so in that of communication, and that of, like, family support. So, you know, on this on my dad, Bill's side of the family, I can't say I'm the best at reading all these emails that but there's this giant email thread. And we were talking about, we were talking about the Black Lives Matter movement on the thread, and we were talking about the difference between seeing no colors of race versus embracing all colors of race, and for extended family for some of my extended family that that has lived most of their life in, in, you know, a suburb of Michigan, you know, that conversation and their perspective is different than my own or my dad's perspective of going of having been in New York for the past, you know, 40 years, or whatever it is. So, but that discussion is welcomed, like, as long as we're part of the family, or even not part of the family, like, everyone in our family realizes that, you know, we have to be open to perspective and discussion. And I think like, Yeah, I definitely, really, I really value that. And I think I'm lucky that that is how it is within both sides of my family.

Yeah, that's cool to hear that you're able to communicate with each other that way.

Yeah, and I know, for a fact, that's not always the case, you know, for lots of lots of families in the US. So. So yeah, you know, I certainly feel privileged. And I mean, like, I think everyone is in the families very happy that, that it feels very privileged to have my perspective as well. You know, it's a two way street. So. So yeah, I think that there's a common level of understanding.

Thank you for sharing that. I didn't know, I had that question in there. And usually, people, you know, give the, you know, normal responses about going to see family, but that's really cool to hear that it's not always about the event. It's about the intentionality that you go with, you know, just yeah.

I think that's really well said.

Let's see. I think we've covered most of my questions. I think like, usually I end as a kind of a concluding thought. I asked a question about, like, what advice you would give to other Chinese adoptees. But it sounds like you've kind of already touched that a little bit with some of your responses. Um, so I'm gonna, I guess, close with, is there anything else that you want to share about your experiences or any questions you feel like I should have asked that we didn't get to cover?

Hmm, let me think. Okay. I guess you know, nothing that we haven't covered. But I think in closing, I would just love to reiterate the the idea of just radical self love and self embracement of who you are and your differences. I think that that is the most profound thing that adoptees can do. And also that, that adopted families and parents can can do as well, you know, that the understanding that embracing and understanding that we are a family or that you are a family with differences and that your child is going to have differences that are, that are innate, and and that were forced upon them. Realizing that and recognizing that is much more powerful parenting, than thinking that there is not going to be any struggles or any differences and thinking that you know adoption just is what it is and, and that, you know, everything is just, you know, forward looking from there. I think radical self love is is the embracement of, of all sides of the spectrum when it comes to identity, and that includes struggles and that includes you know, overcoming many things and those things are not mutually exclusive, you can have, you can have a life that is that starts from a place of trauma, but is equally successful and, and equally filled with love. And you can have a biological family that you didn't grow up with and you can have an adoptive family and those families are not at odds with each other, those families are absolutely supporting each other. And I think parents and adoptees but as parents especially when when their parenting young children should do a better job or should be conscious in recognizing their involvements and their involvement and their--the balance that that like their, their parenting and their child needs. And, and all that all of their. Okay, let me let me think wait, wait. I'm going somewhere here somewhere. I think the beginning made sense. Yeah. Okay, basically. So basically, I think parents and adoptees need to need to see both sides and embrace both sides, or all sides of the journey that, you know, the adoptive child is on and the adoptive parents are on as well. Because without seeing everything without seeing the good and the bad, and the bad, and the good. And the neutral. Like you're only seeing a shell of of who you are and who your family is. So you want to see the whole whole perspective and through that, then you can then you can shed the most love on on each individual within the fact.

Yeah, that was very well said. Thank you. That was a really good point to end on. Okay, yeah. So thank you for agreeing to do this. And I really enjoyed learning more about your story. And I'm glad that other people be able to listen to this and learn from your story as well. Yeah, so I'm gonna go ahead end there. Yeah, of course, I'm going to end the recording, but we'll still be on the call so we can chat.

Okay, cool. Cool. Yeah. Thanks. Thanks for, thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. And it's an honor to contribute to this this study that hopefully, you know, helps the adoptee community out in the future.