Nicole Williams Interview, November 10, 2020

Okay, so today is November 10th, 2020. I'm conducting this interview virtually from Petersburg, Virginia. My name is Alexis Zilen. And today, I am talking with Nicole Williams about her new normal, and the pandemic's effects on unemployment and her mental health. Hi, Nicole, Do I have your permission to record this interview?

Yes, you do.

Okay, great. Let's get started. So, Nicole, what your were you born? And where were you raised?

I was born in 1998. And I was raised in Cherry Hill, New Jersey.

So Cherry Hill, is your family from that area?

My family came from Philly. So a lot of my family were from there. And then we moved over. A lot of my family still lives in Philly, but a lot of them also live in Houston, Texas as well.

Okay, so, um, why the move to Cherry Hill from Philly?

Oh, we just wanted something more, like low key. A lot of my family is big city people. So my mom and my dad, at the time, who they're separated, but we wanted a more low key country kind of living.

Okay, great. And who is your mother?

Her name is Lisa Williams.

What does she do for a living?

She works at a (pause) construction place she builds (pause) like weed whackers and things. She's a main builder there.

Oh, okay. Interesting. Has she always done that?

She has for the last like 30 or so years. She's like one of the oldest people who are there.

Oh, okay. Interesting. And what about your father? What's his name? And what does he do for a living?

His name is David Williams. And he is one of two, of the main supervisors at an old person facility. And yeah, he does a lot of grounds work. And he also helps out, whenever the elderly have any problems with their places.

Oh, okay. So you said your parents are separated or did either one of them remarry?

They are both in different relationships. They have both been in those relationships for like the last 10 years. My dad is with a woman, they did not get married legally. They got married in the eyes of God. And my mom has been with a guy who we also live with and with each other for seven years, I think.

So when did your parents split?

They separated when I was two years old. And they did not fully divorce until I was like 14 maybe just because of money.

So is it just you and your family? Like do you have any siblings?

I have an older brother. He is six years older than me. His name is Matthew Williams.

Okay, great. So you since your parents split at such a young age. What, who did you live with most of the time? Or was it a split custody?

I lived with my mother. It really depended if I could see my father just because he was so low income. He constantly had to change houses. And a lot of the time he would live in trailer parks and a lot of those times the trailer parks were not, very up to health code. He also lived with my uncle, his brother who was a drunk, so we weren't really able to go over there much. So at the at the most, we would see each other every other Wednesday and every other weekend. But sometimes that did not work out.

So do you feel like you were kind of isolated from your father? Do you feel close to him?

I think that being close to him has only happened recently. Um, he's a very (pause) drawn off man. He kind of keeps to himself. He's not very good at showing his emotions or anything. It's only been recently that I was able to actually connect with him on a level just because we started having similarities because he likes hiking. So I could finally relate to him on some level. But it was definitely hard when I was younger to relate with him.

Right, you know how your brother felt about the situation? He was a bit older than you then if you said he was six years older?

Yes, he's six years. I think that he saw a lot more of the harsh realities of the situation. Because I, I think, because I was so young, I still looked up to my dad is like this finger. I didn't really realize any of the things that he was going through until I was older. But my brother was already, he was already eight by the time that they separated. So, he got to see a lot of like, the bad stuff that happens. So, he understood everything that was happening a lot more than I did.

Are you close to your brother?

Yeah, we talk about every day, every other day, we have a lot of common interests. So it's, it's easy for us to talk.

What are examples of your common interests?

We both really like the same media. We're both big readers. We both write. We have similar tastes, and like movies and TV shows. So we're always able to like, message each other and talk about our opinions on different books or TV or whatever.

Okay, great. So earlier in the interview, you said "we" as referring to yourself living with your mother and your mother's partner? Are you currently living with them still?

Yes, I am. I, for the last four years, I was not. But I just moved back for COVID reasons. And so I am living with them currently going back to school.

And when did she start meeting her partner? Like when did you guys start living together as a sort of blended family?

We, I want to say, we moved in with him about seven years ago, I think that they met around like nine years ago. I think I said seven years ago, but I think we lived together seven years ago. Um, we lived with my grandmother before that. But then we moved into the small little half house kind of thing. And then two years later, we got a house a bigger house and it was renting for a while but then they were able to buy it. So we've been living together for a pretty long time.

Oh, okay, great. Well, so I'm moving into your early childhood, where did you go to school?

I went to Cherry Hill High. It was a pretty big High School, there was a good amount of graduates there. It was, it was both big and small. Um, in a way I kind of was isolated from a lot of my peers and tried to like, tried to mind my own business a lot. But I know that it could have been big if I tried more.

Why do you say you're isolated from your peers?

Um, (pause) I think at that age, I just like to believe that I was better than them in a way. Um, I was always pretty creative. And I always really enjoyed writing. So, I always would read these teen fictions about like, amazing teenagers that go out on their own and like, are heroes and stuff. And I always thought that I was more like them than I was with, like, anyone that I went to school with, if that makes sense.

So how would you characterize your fellow peers if you felt you were extraordinary? What were they?

(pause) See, I feel like for a while when I was younger, I think at this point, like, I'm better at it, but I always felt like I was kind of a main character in life, and they were just like background characters. I definitely realize now that that was ridiculous. But I also like to romanticize my life a lot. And didn't really realize the repercussions of that and how it was. I mean, I think that me and my friends, we were like, different in that way. Like, I think that like, me and my friends were one level and then everyone else was at like a background level.

So kind of digging a little bit deeper into what you just said, why do you think you romanticized your life? Was it stemming from these books, or do you think it was anything else as well?

I think it was definitely stemming from the book. I think that I was, obsessed with reading and writing since I could find like I could, I was conscious enough to my mom would always read to us when we were younger, both me and my brother attached to that we were both very creative. So as soon as I was able to I would start writing fictional worlds and writing fiction, and also reading, so I think it just, I think that just came from it. And I think that like, as my days went on, and more mental health went on, I think romanticizing my life was the only way to cope. I think it was just easier for me to romanticize my life than to see it as normal.

Okay, thank you. So just to clarify and get some sort of examples. What kind of books were you reading? Like, if you could specifically name things?

Specifically name, when I was young, I mean, Twilight. The Hunger Games regular like dystopian teen fiction, Divergent. Just any any cliched teen books, I guess.

Okay, great. And then you, um, you had just stated, before that you started writing? Were you writing these kinds of dystopian novels? Or what were you producing?

Yes, I was, um, I got, I started worldbuilding. pretty young. If I look back at them, they're not great, obviously. But, um, I did start writing. Again, I want it to be extraordinary. So I think I wrote as if I was extraordinary. And except, like, I like to write as what I am as a person right now. But I also like to put myself in different scenarios where I was like, 16, and had to take care of the world or something like that. And I would always, I would always make my friends characters just because I, I don't know, I thought it was, again, romanticizing my life and romanticizing the people around me.

So you stated, you're into this sort of worldbuilding and you're writing as if, you know, as you are as a person, how would you looking back now describe what you were writing yourself as? Because you bring up the romanticization? What specifically Are you romanticizing?

I think I like to be more confident and more witty, I think that was always something that I struggled with as a kid. I always (pause) I was never confident enough or was never like witty enough. I felt like I was quiet to a fault at times, or like, submissive and like in the background too much. And I, I want it to be at times, quote unquote, popular, but a lot of the times I I didn't so it was like, a back and forth and in my stories, I would just like, it would not be a back and forth, it would just be clear. I'm either popular, or I'm a regular girl who turns into someone popular. It was just, I think it was just (pause) showing off like my deep desires or something.

Okay, great. Thank you. So you mentioned before about your mental health, this is backtracking a bit, but what did you mean by that? Can you clarify?

I've always struggled with mental health. I didn't really realize that I was struggling with it until I was older, but um, a lot as a kid I, I considered myself like an empath in a way, I think. School dances, I tried to like, there was always people like my friends who were in like, pain, like mental pain, and I feel like I tried to, like, help them and I think, or like, I felt like I was feeling their pain in a way. So I feel like I was over overwhelmed with a lot of their stuff. And I think that I didn't have enough interesting stuff. So I felt what they were feeling. And then, as I grew up, I realized that that was just not the story. I was just giving excuses. And I have depression and anxiety at this point, like clinical. At that time, I didn't know but now I do. (chuckles)

Great. So why were you particularly drawn to being an empath or why did you try and take on some of this responsibility of your friends emotions?

I think that I just have a hero complex. And I think that came from the books. I think I always like to help my friends in any way that I can or in a way take, what they're feeling by like, giving them my happiness in a way. I mean, it doesn't always work out that way, but I like to believe it does.

So moving forward now, um, is there was there anything else besides writing that you were particularly drawn to in high school?

Not really honestly.

I think that (pause) I always try, like, I know there are a lot of people that are like jack of all trades and can be good at multiple things. But I think writing and creating was the only thing I was good at, so I kind of latched on to it.

Okay, so then, moving forward, once again, what did you do after high school?

After high school, I was trying to figure out what school I wanted to go to it. I think being in such a small town, I didn't want to be living in that small town anymore. So I automatically tried to move somewhere else. So I went to a college in New York, upstate New York, Ithaca, so I just want to get away I wanted a fresh start. And even if that school was way too much money, I just, I just wanted a fresh start.

So besides wanting a fresh start, was there any reason you were drawn to Ithaca?

Oh, I guess it was far away. It was very artsy, um, for writing in English, it like I wanted to be a double major in English and writing. And a lot of the schools that I looked at, were solely English majors. So, I found that places like, I could double major. They also had a pretty good English and major, English and writing program. So I think I think that was a reason as well.

Great. So once you got away from your small town and moved into Ithaca, did you find what you were looking for?

I think I found a fresh start, but I think it was to a fault. I made new friends and I make new connections. But I think that like, in the midst of reinventing myself, I kind of lost myself as well.

Can you elaborate what you mean.

Um, I found friends. And I think that it was the first time I was able to fully be wild and lose myself. So I would often drink and would often use drugs just to change my life in a way and connect with friends. And I don't know, a lot of the friends that I had were also big drinkers. So, I think that when we would drink, it would always be a funny situation. And I would enjoy feeling what drinking would do to me. And I thought that the nights would always be wild and I always wanted that wild euphoria in a way.

So during this time, how is your mental health?

I didn't realize how bad it was until I stepped away from it. I think that, there was there was a boy that I really liked. And I a lot of the time I would drink just to like, either make him annoyed with me or make him like me even more. I don't know, it was it was very weird time. But I didn't, I went to a mental hospital at some point just because of how deteriorating my mental health was. I didn't realize how bad it was. Until it was too late.

I think I just ignored it a lot. And I didn't realize how bad drinking, have a coping like coping, a coping mechanism like drinking was and it was just easy for me to ignore my problems. And not realizing that I didn't really do much homework either. Um, it was like, it was a fresh start, but I think the fresh start was more of my social life and less of me actually trying to succeed in school.

Great. So when you say you stepped away, are you talking about the mental hospital then?

Yes, in a way, I think that was, well, I had a very bad experience there. So it wasn't really helping. I think the mental hospitals, anything else taught me that I need it to be better just because I didn't want to end up back there. But um, after I had my first year, I ended up dropping out after the sex, or after the second or the, after the first year, and I spent some time thinking about it. And then after like a month or two of being out of school, I'm like, wow, that was, that was probably not the best time that I was in.

So after you dropped out, what did you do?

I stayed in my small town for about four months, until I realized that I couldn't do it. And then I looked online and found that, when I was younger, I went to a summer camp, which was a poor camp. And I enjoyed it a lot. And it was something that was always on my mind. So I was like, I want to work at a summer camp. So I ended up searching for summer camp. Um, I didn't really care where it was, I just wanted to find it. And then I found this one called Camp CL. And I didn't realize that at the time, but it was in Washington state. So I applied for the summer, and I got the job. And then I got an email asked me if I wanted to come early. So I ended up dropping everything. And two weeks later, I moved to Seattle.

And what year was this?

This was 2018.

Okay, and what did your family think about all of this, I mean, dropping out and then moving to clear across the country?

No one wants to tell me anything I don't like I'm pretty sure they had a lot of feelings about it, but no one was, like, willing to tell me them. Um, they, they, they liked that I was doing something better than when I was doing and Ithaca. And I think it was better when I came back from Seattle, because they realized how much I had changed there and how much it had, re-, made me better. I don't know the word. But um, and they were definitely scared of me moving so far away. And especially because they didn't like, it was five months. And it was the first time that like, I would be so far away that like, it wasn't just a drive away to pick me up. So they were definitely nervous about that. But I was more excited for another fresh start.

Interesting. So did your family or friends know about? What happened at Ithaca?

I think that I was not willing to tell them the whole story. Um, I think I was, I think subconsciously I realized how bad everything was and that I didn't want to share too much. I think that when I did share something, people just like reacted badly to it or like, acted like I was mental. So I I tried to keep a lot of thing closed, but I'm kind of an oversharer. So it was definitely harder to do.

And you said you had only stayed back after coming back from Ithaca for three or four months?

Yes. It's, it's very hard for me to live in a small town and like live in the town that I grew up in, just because I feel like I'm failing in a way. So I constantly want to be on the move and seeing new places.

So you described your writing as almost a narrative of your life. What was your writing, like, at this point? Were you still writing?

I always go through spouts of writing. If I'm too depressed, it's really hard for me to write. But also sometimes when I'm depressed, it helps me to write but, um, as an outlet. I think at this time, I would say. (door slam) Oh, sorry. Um, I think when I was in Ithaca, it was easy for me to write just because I was ignoring my, um, my responsibilities. So it was fun for me to write and then in the few months I was back here, back in my hometown, I didn't really write much. And then when I was in Seattle, it was kind of hard for me to write because there was so much work happening. So I was definitely scarce in writing at that point.

Did you keep in contact with anyone from Ithaca during this point?

Yes, I did. I, I tried to keep in contact with most of my friends that I meet along the way. So I, I was pretty close with everyone. But I still felt like a distance between me and them, because they were all together. And I was not. And I think in a way, I was kind of jealous of that. But also, I knew that I shouldn't be there. But I also at some point, so I was like, why did I leave? But then I remembered why I left.

Right, so. So moving to Washington, then were you trying to escape again?

Yes, in a way. Um, (pause) I definitely. Yeah, I think I definitely want it to have another fresh start and escape again. And I think it was perfect for Washington, even though I didn't know at first or subconsciously I was. That was the place that I chose. So obviously, I wanted to move far away, especially because it's all the way across the country. And no one would know me. I know a lot of people have problems with like going places that no one, felt like, no one knows them, because they want to go somewhere that people will like, be comfortable with them. But I am someone who does not want to be around people that they know, when I move somewhere.

Why is that?

I think I just like to be different person in different places. I think that like, it teaches me a lot about myself to show like, there are commonalities in each of me. And I think that like, as time went on, I realized who I was more, so I didn't have to be different in different places. And now I'm just the same person everywhere I am. But I think at that point in my life, it was just, it was very nice for me to be able to reinvent myself a few times.

So if you don't mind me asking, Who are you?

I am someone who enjoys life. I'm very passionate about everything I do, and the people that I'm around. I like reading and writing. I care about my friends a lot. I care about my family. I care a lot. And I like to show my friends how much I care about them. I'm also hardworking. And yeah, I enjoy. And I enjoy a good day out in the town.

So you mentioned this earlier, but your friends, keep sort of being a theme of this. Do you think that it affects kind of effects your mental health by showing this sort of outward, I guess always enjoyment towards them. You speak very positively of your experiences. But at the same time, you mentioned earlier that being an empath for your friends kind of hurt your mental health. So how would you describe that relationship?

I think for a while it was definitely very hard for me. And in Ithaca specifically, especially the first year. After that year, I learned that I had to live more for myself than other people. But in that time, I was definitely taking on a lot of the responsibility of other people. Um, I feel like every time one of us would get drunk or something, they would be sad, and I would have to talk them through it. And I would, every time that I would do that, I would kind of lose more of myself because I had to keep more secrets. But after that year, and after I went to Washington for the first time, I think I found out that there are so many people who still care about people, but are still not selfish, but they still care about themselves and their own mental health. So, that taught me a lot. So, now I am, I care about people and I'm willing to help them but I also am not willing to lose myself over there helping them.

That's great. So now fast forwarding a bit, because we kept backtracking. Once you got to Washington, was it the escape that you hoped for?

It definitely was, um, for the first little while I was definitely nervous that it wouldn't that I wouldn't like the people because in the beginning, it was just a ragtag group of we were, there was five of us. And, um, at first, we didn't fully connect, like I liked all of them. But like, it wasn't like a full connection. But as the weeks went on, we all worked really well together, and I met some of my close friends to this day, I still talk to them. So, it was, is definitely an experience I wanted. Because the first half of it, I was, um, it was like, oh, like outdoor education. So I was teaching schools that would come, like marine biology and environmental education and stuff. So, it was that part. And then the second half of it, I was a counselor to nine to ten year old girls. So I ended up getting a lot of personal experience and understanding the world a lot more. But I, it was definitely taught me a lot, and I enjoyed it a lot.

So why was there a disconnect? Do you think in the beginning?

I think it was just a bunch of people in different parts of the world that came together once, like, um, there are some, there were some people there like, I came from a random place and then like two like, I think it was just everyone coming from different backgrounds and different scenarios that we didn't really know what the others humor was like and didn't know how to react to the other. So, it was awkward in the beginning. Plus, our supervisor wasn't very like, head on to like, get us together or anything. So it was, we have to just learn the ropes on our own.

So why do you think you guys started to bond then?

I think we just realized that we're all in this together. And I think as time once went on, we realized how much we do have in common and how much we like how we thought that we came from different backgrounds at first. But we realized that we actually had like a lot of similar things that we realized that we all like, had the same ambitions and cares. And we were all here for the same reason. And so it would just be better if we all connected and all worked as a team.

Okay, great. So you mentioned a little bit ago about you were teaching like marine biology or environmental sciences, or something along those lines, how did how did you get started in that?

I honestly didn't like I had no idea because I originally applied for a camp counselor position. So I didn't expect to be an environmental education teacher at all, because I didn't have any background with it. And it was act-, it was also like really nervous for me, because when I got in there, pretty much all the other people were like, had a background in this. And they all specifically applied for this position where the supervisor role, like, reached out to me to get me on, like on the team, so I was definitely like a little insecure about that. Um, but yeah, I, I did a lot of research, I learned a lot. So I could like, feel level to them. I was definitely, before I get, I went there. I wasn't like, super into the idea because I didn't really know much about it, but I did a lot of research. So, I now know, a lot of information that I never thought I would know before.

So why do you think he reached out to you specifically to do this?

(distant voice) Sorry, um, he, I never knew. But I actually asked him recently, because I went back for another year. And I asked him and I thought it was like this big reason. But he told me that it was just because I wrote down on my application. It like asked, When are you available to come? And I said any time so that's the reason he reached out to me. I thought it was some bigger reason, but it was not.

So after, this is backtracking to our conversation a bit, but you mentioned you were in charge of younger girls, how did that kind of change the role you're, you were doing at the camp or affect you?

It was really interesting change because it was for the first half of it when we were all in environmental education. Um, there was only like, it started out with five and then more people added on so there was about 10 of us to work together, plus there was like some supervisors. So like, at the camp, there was about 15 to 20 people who worked there. And then all of a sudden the summer came, and there was about, like, 150 staff members. And so I already, like learn the ropes of the camp and everything. So I understood everything. But then everything that I thought I understood was completely turned on its head. So it was definitely a learning adjustment for that. And I felt weird, because I didn't know where my place was, um, situationally situation wise, and I, I enjoyed the job before. I thought and then counseling young girls was definitely I enjoyed it a lot. And I was a lot better at it than I thought I was going to be. And people always like, complimented me on it. And I always felt insecure that I was gonna be bad, about it, bad at it. But I really enjoyed it actually.

Do you think it helped your mental health to be out there and doing a job that you eventually came to enjoy?

I think the best part about that job was that it, was always going, like, say, a week, um, with counseling specifically, there was a week, so six days was like, the campers were there. And as a counselor, you would only have two hours off a day. And plus, you would sleep with the campers. So pretty much you had a 22 hour day for like six days straight. So, as I was nervous about that fact that I wouldn't be able to do, like have mental health like excursions on my own, or that I wasn't going to be able to have any self awareness or like, I would get overwhelmed. But honestly, the constantly going helped me a lot to keep my mind off things.

So after that first summer, because you said it was a summer camp, did you move back home?

I actually after that summer camp, I realized that I wanted to go back to the upstate New York, job or school. So I ended up going back to Ithaca for another year.

Why did you go back what was the decision making process?

I realized that I want it to go back to school. And I think I was also, I miss my friends. I like the school. And I think that I was just at that time I was I couldn't think of anywhere else I wanted to go because I wanted to go back to school, but I didn't want to go anywhere around my high school, my like hometown, so I just I wanted to see my friends again, I wanted to be a part of something again. So I just ended up going back.

Was it any different?

It was definitely different. Um, after that few months of living in Washington, I, my entire personality flipped I think I became more mature, more confident with myself and I understood more that of what I wanted. So while the first year I was very insecure and drank a lot and every and everything, and this year I came back it was like I was a different person. And I think that it was definitely a learning adjustment for both me and my friends because they remembered me as one person, I came back as a different person. So it was definitely a dynamic that we had to relearn.

So what was it like relearning, when they started to get to know the new you?

It was actually like pretty good. Um, they had also changed a little bit, I think not as much as I did. But I felt a lot more mature than them at times. Just because like, honestly, Itaca was a really expensive school, so everyone who went there, most of them were being paid. Like their parents were paying for them. And I'm paying pretty much on my own, like I am paying for my own I pay my own loans and everything. So I only had one other friend who was there and understood paying for his own schooling. So I at times, I felt that everyone was more privileged than me. So it was hard for me to like, I think I just experienced more life, more of life. So it was hard to like connect at times with a bunch of people who have always been given everything?

So you mentioned, early on in the interview, that there was a boy involved the first time. Was he still there? Was he so part of that friend group you were hanging out with?

He was yes. At that time, I was completely over him. So it's fine. But um, I, at times- like, I think that I'm still affected by the rut that he left me in and a lot of insecurities that he left with, but I was, I don't hold grudges. So like, he was still part of the friend group, I easily was integrated back into it, and I was his friend again, and everything was fine.

So then after, um, after that year at Ithaca, did you end up graduating then?

No. Um, so that was only two years that I was there, I ended up then, well, two years all together. But then I ended up moving back to Seattle.

Why the change?

(chuckles) I guess I just realized how much I liked it there and how much I really want to go back. And I know that like, I wanted to specifically go back for summer camp, because I ended up, at that point. You have to be 21 to be a supervisor. So, I really wanted this one supervisor job. So, I applied for that, and I got it. So, I ended up wanting to go there. And I wasn't sure what was gonna happen after the summer, but I just knew that I wanted to stay out there.

So can you break down perhaps a little bit the thought process of leaving Ithaca, for the second time?

I think, I, ugh, it was just a lot of money. And at that point, like I think I was mature enough to realize that it was a lot of money. And to be fair, that was like one point of it. But also I was talking to this guy who was living in Washington. And I think subconsciously I really wanted to be with him and be around him but that was not my deciding factor. That was just a small factor.

Okay, interesting. There seems to be a theme of, you've mentioned now to influential men in your life, why do you think that would be?

I think that I am, I think this goes back to me reading a lot. I think that I have always wanted a, I'm an independent woman but also I think I want a person to sweep me off my feet and bring passion in my life and be everything that I've ever hoped for. So I think because of that I'm very willing to trust and love. pretty easy, but also be really scared because it never really works out.

It's, gonna say do you have any great loves then like the book?

I think that I had a few of them, but they never last very long. Um, I think I either get too scared and push them away or like, they pull away or something I've never had everything that I hope for.

Why are you too scared?

I think that it all goes back to that, like the first guy. He is the first love have ever had. So, I really (pause) expected everything from him only to find out that he was. Well, he he was with a girl at that point. And, um, he was dating her and he was cheating on her with me. And at the time, I knew it was messed up. But I was in love with him. And I always thought that he was gonna break up with her. And he always made me unsure about myself. And sometimes he would love me and sometimes he wouldn't love me. So I think that like, I got really insecure from that. And I never, every time I get with someone, I just imagine that they're going to leave me or imagine that they're hiding some big secret from me. So I'm always insecure about that. So I think I pushed them away out of fear from that.

Well, thank you for that, Nicole. So did you move right from Ithaca to Washington or did you sort of make a pitstop in your hometown?

I was in my hometown for about a week. When I went back there, I spent a little time and then I took a road trip down to New Orleans with two of my friends. And then I came back. And then the day after that, I took a train or a bus up to Ohio, where I met with my friend Trent. And we drove from Ohio, over to Washington.

And how did your friends and family feel about you, well, returning to ethica, and then moving right back to Washington, again?

No one would tell me how they felt, um, they definitely had opinions. And they definitely like, they definitely thought I was very aloof and not knowing what I was doing. And to be fair, I didn't know what I was doing. And I think that a lot of my decisions are made off of like, whatever I feel, because I believe everything happens for a reason. So, I think that whatever strong instinct that I have, I just follow it. So, they, they think that I'm a little wild with that. But they also understand that I will not listen to them, and I'll do whatever I want anyway.

Why do you think they didn't want to tell you?

I think it just has to do with like, (pause) I think that like, they think that even if they tell me what they think I should do, I'd probably push it off and do whatever I want anyway. So, I think they're scared of like, disappointing me or like, saying something that I don't like, and just getting a rise out of me because they know I'll actually do it. I think they also just want me to be happy. So, whatever I want to do, they're just gonna accept.

So after you move to back out to Washington, were you working for the camp still?

Yes. For the first, I worked for them for the summer. I was, um, I was supervisor. And then after the summer, we had an environmental education program in the fall. And then I worked for that for a few months. And then over the winter, I got a nanny job on the island. In then I worked for them until March, where I went back to the camp until I got laid off because of COVID.

Can you clarify what you what the island is?

Um, the camp is situated on that island. It is (pause) right off of West Seattle. It is a it's a pretty big island. It's pretty liberal. You have to take a ferry on there's no book there's no bridges or anything. So, you can either take a ferry from West Seattle or you can take a ferry from Tacoma to get there.

Okay, interesting. Um, so, you started working as a nanny, and you're kind of just living in Washington. Was there anything else you were really involved in doing? Did you go to school out there at all?

No, I didn't go to school. I had an apartment. I ended up getting a cat. Um, uh, at that point, it was the summer and it was dreary, and I would hang out my friends. But I think I was just living, like, I wasn't living fully. I was kind of just out there.

I didn't, I didn't like I would hang out with friends really often and stuff, but especially in like, once March hit, it was hard to like, be around anyone. But I don't know. It was definitely like, being a nanny was exhausting. So, I would kind of just work and then come home and then go to sleep. But it wasn't a very exciting life at that point.

So now that we've kind of mentioned it a bit, what happened when the pandemic first hit, were you still able to work?

So it was really interesting because I was working as a nanny, and this was before the pandemic hit. Um, well, it was a whispering, it wasn't like a huge, huge deal yet. But um, I was working as a nanny, and I knew that my mental health was deteriorating. And I knew at that point that I was going to move back in I'm in like, end of August because I already I already got a position at that point to work back at camp in the summer. I was going to be a supervisor, once again.

So, I knew that I had until like, may ish before I would be done with the job as a nanny, but my mental health was just so bad. And the supervisor ended up messaging me, because I planned on wanting to work there for the weekends. And then I met with him. And he's like, do you want a full time job. And I was very unsure, because they pay so much less there, than they do, that I was getting paid as a nanny. But I realized that I cared more about my happiness than I did about money. So, I ended up working there. And we were working there for probably a week, we didn't even get to the point where school started to come. We were just doing training, and then COVID hit and everyone was closing down. So we started working from home. We were there for about two weeks, like we started. Like, yeah, we were working home for two weeks, and they extended it for another two weeks. And then they just kind of like, sent everyone home. And I assumed that we were gonna, I was gonna, like, be laid off completely. But then the big boss ended up like calling me and was like, you like, you're a good employee, like I'm willing to keep you on to like, help us do like yard work and a bunch of like office work and stuff. So I ended up working with them until the middle of June, July, no, the beginning of August. And then in the beginning of August, so August 1st, was when we officially everyone that was there got laid off because the company was unable to pay for anyone's employment anymore.

So you were living, obviously, in Washington during this time, one of the hardest hit areas of the pandemic in the beginning, what was it like quarantining there and trying to survive the pandemic?

We were definitely more, I think the island was a lot easier to live on, because there was less. Um, we were like, there was a lot of old people on the island. And I know there was only one case on the island. So we were pretty pulled away from it. So, it wasn't as bad as it was off the island in Seattle. But it was definitely hard to hear about knowing everything was happening, it was also really hard to stay on the island and not go anywhere else, because it can be very suffocating at times. So, it was very hard to live on the island without like leaving it, especially because I knew that I was leaving in a few months anyway. So, I felt like I was just like losing part of my life and part of my time out there.

Was social media playing a part at all with helping you try and connect to friends and family who were now seem to be scattered across the country in Philadelphia, or not Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, New York, Texas, New Jersey?

I, I think it. Yes, it did. It definitely helped me keep in contact with people, I think to a fault at times, because I was always on my phone always looking at things. Um, but it was definitely easy, easier to communicate with people. Um, at the time, I had a roommate, but she had a boyfriend, off the island. So, she was constantly going there for like, six days of the week, and then coming over here for like over there for a month. So, I was completely alone except for my cat. So, I definitely, like felt the pain of not being around anyone, especially for those first few months, where I didn't have like a full job and I was working from home mostly. Or I was working as a nanny where I would, see it was just it was definitely hard to adjust to being completely alone. But um Yeah, it was. It was hard.

Right? Well, once um, once you lost your job and were officially laid off by the company in August, I believe you said, what was what was your initial feelings of that moment?

I, I, think I felt more bad for the other people because at that point, I already knew that I was going to leave. But like it, it took off. Like, I know that they like the other people that was like their full life, like they were working there, they were living there. And to hear that they could no longer work there or live there was definitely very hard and hit them hard. And I couldn't even imagine what it was like, because I was already leaving, and I already plan to leave. So, um, (pause) but it did break my heart too, because I was hoping to stay longer and hoping to be there longer. But and then I, yeah.

You keep bringing up this theme of leaving? What do you mean by leaving?

Um, at that point, (giggles) I realized that I wanted to go back to school. But this time, I wasn't going back to Ithaca, I was going to a community college, just to finish out my degree.

So what made you do that decision?

I think that I was like more mood motivated at this point. And I also realized that I like, I did want to feel like, go to college. And I think being out in Washington and just like, doing odd jobs working as a nanny working at like, camp every now and then was like, "What am I going to do this for the rest of my life? Like, am I just going to have odd jobs and never fully have a place?" And then I realized, like, I think my purpose is to go to school, learn more how to be a writer, and then like, hopefully be, hopefully published novels of working in editing like a publishing company. So I just realized that I was definitely not fulfilling my purpose.

What's your purpose?

I think it's to like, put my work out there. I think that having, everyone's influenced by writing, in a way. I think, anyone who picks up a book and reads it is changed in one way, at least, that's what a writer hopes to achieve. And I think putting my work out there and letting people see my thoughts and my feelings. I think that's, I think that's what I made to do.

So you mentioned, um, well, you alluded to this, but you're still majoring in English and writing.

Yes, I am. Um, I am now. Well, originally, I just came on as English because I didn't know that my school had a double writing major as well. But literally today, I actually signed on as a writing major. So I'm a double major right now.

Okay, well, congratulations on that. So you're going to community college, once you move back, I have to ask again, but what what was your families and friends reaction to this?

I think that once again, they were like, oh, okay, you're doing something else. But they were more excited because I was living at home. Um, which was hard, obviously. But I think that it's a lot less money to do. And I'm already in like, $60,000 of debt from the two years that I was there. So, I think it just made sense. And I had like, I was an adult at that point. And I had to be logical about my next steps. And I think they were proud of me because of that. So, I think I think they supported me more in this decision.

That's great to hear. So now that you're kind of back, are you doing online schooling?

I am yeah, um, my school is in a hybrid learning. So, there are some people who are and there, are some classes that are in person some classes that are online. I ended up having all of my classes online just because as an English and writing major, it's most of them are online anyway. So, I just picked classes that were going to be online officially because I'm also a commuter. So, I have to drive like 30 minutes away. So, I just I thought it would make more sense just for me to work from home and have school at home.

Okay, great. So you mentioned this earlier on during the interview that you kind of feel suffocated, or like a failure being home. Do you still feel that right now?

Definitely. Um, it's (chuckles) I have not seen anyone for my high school yet. Actually. I saw one person but and I thought they wouldn't recognize me but they ended up recognizing me. But I, I definitely see how I am ashamed to do it. Like I, I like to run once a day and I do it at night because I don't want anyone that I know to know that I live there. Um, I know that like, at this point, this is like the end of the four years. So a lot of people who finished out school are going to be living at home anyway. Because COVID there's so much things, but I don't know. I, I was gone for four years, and it just sucks that I had to still be be back here. I know, COVID has definitely been affecting a lot of people so I don't feel super bad, but I still don't like anyone to know that I'm here.

Why do you think that is?

I think that, like I saw a lot of people when I was ( pause) like, I think that there are a lot of people, the people who stay here are the people who are going to stay here for the rest of their lives. And I think I just, I think this is drawing back to the "I want to be different than other people." I want people know that I moved away, and I have seen great things. And I am out, and I want I wanted people from high school to see me and think that I am like, living my life well and doing what I want to do. But, I think at this point, I am not doing completely what I want to do. But I will soon I think that this is just like a buffer period. So, I'm doing what I have to do to eventually find my future.

You sort of answered this, but I was going to ask, inwardly reflecting, do you think that you're kind of a failure right now?

I want to say no, I'm, am very passionate about my work like my studying. So, I think that I'm doing really well in school, I'm pretty much having all A's right now. So, I do a lot of work. I don't have a job right now, just because of how hard COVID is, I feel like in that point, I feel like a failure a little bit just because it's kind of lame that I don't have a job. Also, I'm trying to stay away from like, getting COVID and bringing it back to my family. So, it's definitely, it's definitely hard to not have an income. I had unemployment but I it ran out. So it's definitely, definitely hard to accept because I'm used to always having a job. This is the first time that I've like the longest I've ever gone without having a job.

So we've been talking about this throughout the interview, but what is your writing like now, that the most evolved version of you?

I am, I think that I'm a better writer, obviously, you learn more, I think I've been reading a lot recently. And I've gotten a few like, right now I'm in a short fiction class where we workshop different stories, and I've sent in two of my stories. And they get so they get received so well. And I always get nervous that I'm not a good writer, because like, this is my whole life. Like Imagine if I'm not a good writer, but I always get really well received in the writing that I do. So, it's it's good. And I feel like I'm confident in it. I honestly haven't been reading too much. I mean, writing sorry. I go in and out of spurts of like writing or reading and right now, I am doing so much homework, usually it's like 9am to like, seven if, that's on a good night. And after I'm done I just writing as a process, I have to get into the mode. And at that point, I just want to like lay down with a book. So, it's easier for me to read than it is for me to like get into the mode of writing.

Okay, great. So, you mentioned are sorry, not sorry. Um, what are you currently involved in? You mentioned a few things here there. But is there anything else you're kind of doing during this pandemic?

Not really. Honestly, I'm just doing homework. I'm trying to like stay away from people but I I have my like, I keep my social circles small. And I try to do a little bit of traveling. I try to see the world I do like hiking and stuff, going camping. Yeah, I've just been reading and doing homework. It's pretty lame, but I feel like that's all really anyone could do at this point unless they're going out and partying and not being COVID safe.

So I guess that segues into my larger question. How would you describe your new normal?

Boring, I'm, not what I expected in my life. I, (sighs) I knew that I was going to move back, anyway. But it's hard to escape, except it's, for a while I was just staying inside and doing nothing. I finally just recently got into running again. But I feel like I was just laying down and gaining weight and feeling like a loser at times. But I was also doing a lot of homework. And this is, this is never what I expected my life to be. Because even when I was in Ithaca I was, I always had friends and stuff. And I was always around people. But like, right now with COVID, you don't really get to see a lot of people. And even when I like there are people around, I'm like constantly doing homework. So I've, I always feel like I have to be productive. And, and I'm productive in schoolwork. But then I feel unproductive with seeing people and going out to be around people and working. So, it's just, it's constantly like going back and forth. And I feel like there are days where I want to text people all the time, there are days when I don't even want to look at my phone. So, I feel like it's very easy to go into depressive states with me. So, it's always constantly fluctuating. I like to, I like to try to keep happy. But sometimes when you're doing nothing but sitting down and doing homework, it definitely feels you definitely get hit with everything.

And how is your mental state right now?

Today it's good. Um, uh, asked me a week ago, I would probably say something completely different. But right now it's good.

So in general, do you think the pandemic has affected your life on a larger scale or your trajectory at all? Or do you think that this is a phase?

I think this is going to be something that lasts for a while. Um, and I don't only mean in a physical sense, because I think that COVID is going to last for a decently long time and people just have to get used to it. I think this is the new normal, as you say, but also, I think, in a mental place. Like, this is something that I will never forget, I know that a lot of people will not forget it. This is something that like even in the future, I will be or whatever and tell my grandkids about the time of COVID and how like down I was and how I had to live my college years, sitting in my bedroom a lot of the time.

So projecting a little bit into the future, what do you think you're going to be involved in or are doing?

I want to work at a publishing company, I want to work in editing, I'm so, I have to move to a bigger city. I'm hoping that COVID calms down at that point, but honestly, no one knows how long it's gonna last. So, after I finished school, which I'm hoping is in the next two or three years, um, I will move wherever I should, and hopefully find a job as a publishing company and go on from there.

Oh sounds great, Nicole. So are there any other questions you think I should have asked at this point in time?

Um, I don't think so.

Are any final remarks you just wish to say?

I can talk briefly about my mental disorders if you want.

Only if you wish to.

Yeah, that's fine. Um, so I am diagnosed bipolar. I also have PTSD from something that happened to me in my first year of college. And I also have depression and anxiety. You can ask any questions if you have to about them.

Well, I don't know if it's necessarily that I have to. But now I'm kind of curious now that we're getting into some of these things that we've been alluding to, perhaps throughout this interview, but when were you diagnosed with some of these things? You mentioned the PTSD from dating back to your first year of college, but what about the bipolar disorder, anxiety, depression?

I think that honestly, I wasn't diagnosed with any of them until recently. My family is definitely not one to care about mental issues. So, it was definitely a learning wrote, for me. When I was in Ithaca, I realized how bad I was. And I got end up getting Medicaid. So, I went to, a, a therapy place on the island. And I was talking with someone and I also went to the doctors and they helped me diagnose and explained to me more about the disorders that I never even knew I had.

So, you when when did you go on Medicaid? Exactly. Do you remember the year?

I only went in this year cuz I, um, I got it in Washington.

Okay, are you continuing to see someone now?

Not since I've moved home. Um, I am trying. I've always wanted to but like right now, I'm, I'm taking meds so I'm not like in a instant that I need to. I'd like to eventually. But I also don't have health insurance out here. So, I've been trying to get health insurance. So once I do, that is definitely something I will, I will contemplate, but at this moment, I cannot.

Okay, well, interesting. So, you think that perhaps seeking help has led to a bit more, of, I don't know, and an evolution in your thought of you, your adjustment to moving back from Washington to Pennsylvania? Or no? Sorry, you, Cherry Hill?

Yeah, Cherry Hill.

I'm sorry. Just just a lot of locations. But do you think that moving, moving back and continuing to go to a community college stems from you going to, well, going to seek professional clinical help?

Yes, I do. I think that having that professional help, honestly helped me understand more of myself and more where I'd come from. I think that I if I had been diagnosed in my freshman year of college, I don't think I would have been in such a bad place at that point. Because a lot of my problems stem back from there, and I talked to my doctor and they're like, you should have been diagnosed at this point. Um, but I never was. So, I was always confused and unsure about what I was or what was wrong with me because I drinking and abundance of everything, I never felt like I belonged in a situation. So it was definitely helpful for me to learn. And at that point, like, it was also really helpful for me to talk to someone because I can I am overshare. And I always felt bad for talking to my friends too much about everything. So, having a therapist to talk to and also bounce ideas off to off of because she was the one who originally egged me on to go back to school. And it was, I think that like, at that point, I matured a lot in my emotions and my realizations. So once I learned how to do that, I realized that I have to be mature now for my next steps. And so I moved back home.

Okay, so then just wrapping up a bit, you mentioned that you were diagnosed with PTSD. Um, how did you get that diagnosis if you hadn't seen a clinician before you got on Medicaid?

Um, when I went there, and my doctor, we talked about some of the effects, I told her what had happened to me. And she, she asked me about, like, if I still had nightmares, or if I still had, like, anyone touched me too hard if I still got like, scared. So I, I realized more like, I didn't even realize that I had PTSD. But like, as she went on and asked me these questions, but my nightmares and about like, how I felt in situations, I realized that I might have that. And also she said that I had that.

So, do you said, I real- you realize that you might have that did you doubt when she said that you had it that you had PTSD?

I think that it was so engrained in my head to not have mental disorders from my parents, like my family, and I think in that in the time that they were growing up, and it wasn't normal to show your emotions or like, be diagnosed with anything or take medicine for anything. So, a lot of the time when I, when I would feel those kind of things, I would just push them away and just assume that they would be fine eventually, or I would get over them. Um, but it was four years later, and I definitely still needed help, so.

Does your family know that you're going to see a professional or seeking professional help?

Yes, but they're still not like super okay with it. Um, my mom kind of ignores it. And my dad. When,I was in the mental hospital, my mom and dad came up to see me, regardless if I wanted them to. And my dad took a picture of me in the hospital bed, and now shows it to me every time I get sad. So, he is not very good at helping me with my emotions. And my mom is also doesn't really understand anything. So it's, it's a road that I have to pave on my own.

So he just, he has a photo of you in a mental hospital?

He does. Yeah.

Interesting. Well, thank you for being this vulnerable with me today, Nicole. Is there anything else you wish to state before we end the interview?

I don't think so.

Okay, well, thank you very much for taking the time to do this interview today. This has been very informative and will be a valuable contribution to constructing life in the pandemic ,constructing mental health. Thank you.

Yes, of course. Thank you.