Robbie Robinson Interview, October 23, 2020

Okay, so just to start today. I'm going to be asking you to give me your date …the well, today is obviously the October 23rd a Friday 2021 for, oh it's not even 2021 its 2020, got all my dates mixed up, but it's October 23rd 2020 for both of us, but I think we're in different time zones. So I'm in Washington DC and it's 7:06 p.m. If you don't mind telling me your name and the time and location for you?

Okay, Sure, It’s Reverend Robbie Robinson the time here is six, little after 6, 60 three, four five, whatever little after six o'clock and I'm calling its Bartlett, Illinois, which is a suburb of Chicago.

Wonderful and just before we start do I have your consent to record this interview?

Yes.

Wonderful. Okay, so I want to just start with if you could tell me when and where you were born?

Okay. I was actually born in the city of Chicago back in October of 1958.

Wonderful. And what would you describe your childhood experiences? What was growing up like for you?

I will say growing up at that time and Chicago, Chicago is pretty segregated in terms of neighborhoods. And so the area that I grew up in when I was born was predominantly a black area, African-American area, middle class. We always lived in a middle-class neighborhood. I had two working parents. When I moved or when I got into the fourth grade, we moved into a different neighborhood which at the time was primarily a Jewish neighborhood. And when I was in the fourth grade, I believe there may have been three or four other black families in the area. But in four years by the time I got to 8th grade and it changed dramatically and it was ninety percent black, and that they had what they called the white flight at that time where people were moving to the suburbs, so I ended up at a school that was you know, predominantly black when I graduated from eighth grade. And then when I graduated from eighth grade and was going to high school we did have some gang issues. So my parents moved me up to a smaller town in Michigan which made it very very different because now all of a sudden I go from a big city that was, the school that was predominantly black, to a small town in Michigan where the school was predominantly white. So it was just, you know, a little, a lot different for me.

Absolutely. I um had the reverse experience growing up where I grew up in a small town and then ended up in a big city. And it yeah, it’s the opposite was opposite thing where I was like, whoa, there are people who look like me here.

Okay, yeah.

Yeah, so that's kind of funny. And thinking about sort of your, you know, family Dynamics. You mentioned you have you know, both your mom and your dad, do you have any siblings?

Yeah I have one brother. He's uh four years younger than I am.

And what did your parents do growing up?

My dad was a bricklayer. So he was you know a manual labor he worked for the city for some time. And then, well really most of his career was with the city, and then my mom she started out at the post office and then she ended up in a clerical role again with with a city of Chicago job.

Wonderful. Thank you. And I'm thinking about you know, you mentioned sort of you. You moved a few times growing up. How would you sort of describe how you and your family were able to sort of be part of all these sort of different changing communities and how would you describe sort of your experience with community in general growing up?

Well, you know, I would say the you know again, so when I was born, you know nasty as a young as a child and you know, you're going to grammar school you just make friends. And again, most of my friends were, you know in my neighborhood within one or two block radius. But I was also blessed when I was younger that my parent, well, my mom was born and raised in Chicago. My dad was born in Mobile Alabama and moved up but when he and his family moved up, they all move not all but many of them moved into the same neighborhood. So my grandmother and grandfather lived across the street. I had two cousins that lived across the street from me. And so, you know, I had a sense of family as well as just, you know, again the friends that I met on the Block. And then we moved to the other neighborhood that I said started out as a Jewish neighborhood, while I didn't have the family over there, again as the neighborhood changed from predominantly white to predominantly black and I just got a lot of friends and so got connected there. My parents were involved in some of the neighborhood, you know program some of the Block Club things and parental activities that they had so they were very active in that. And then my dad, the reason that they had a lot of city jobs, is he was a, he worked for the alderman in the city of Chicago as a, I think they called him a captain. So he was kind of involved in you know, the political side of it, which was at that time, you know with the Democratic powers that be in Chicago if you were connected with them, you were pretty much guaranteed a pretty good paying job. So, you know, you had to work for the city and and work for the alderman and the mayor and do things that they needed you to do to get them re-elected, but in return for that, you know usually had some good employment.

Awesome. Thank you. And thinking about spirituality or religion did your childhood include any experiences with religion or faith or spirituality?

Yeah, I would say I don't remember exactly that’s, you know, what I was maybe 10-11 my mom would you know would take me to church my dad at that time didn't go much but my mom was taking me to church at that point in time and you know, making sure that I had some spiritual grounding. It was always in a Christian related environment, I believe the first church we went to was more of a what I'll call a Holiness Apostolic church where you know the women wore pretty much all white. There was a separation between the men and women even though it's a very small church out of it was a matter of fact, the first church we went to was in a brownstone home, so it was in someone's home. So, I mean, I don't know if it was more than 15-20 people in that church. But then eventually, you know started to Branch out into other churches, ended up in a Baptist Church. So, you know, but they made sure we were grounded spiritually obviously, absolutely. Yes, so they would make sure we went to church went to Sunday school and you know, we're had some involvement with what was going on.

Right, and how do you you know, well first before I even get into your current beliefs, how did you sort of find yourself on your current path as a pastor?

Well, that was different. I guess that would say, you know growing up through. You know, I say my teenage years into young adulthood in my 20s. I always felt a closeness to God now, you know, I still did what most people did. I hung out partied and did some things that I would say, I'm not proud of but there are things that I guess give me a testimony of how God can use anybody who's willing to to follow the calling that he puts on their life. So I would say it wasn't until like my 30s when I really started to feel like I was being called to Ministry. I always thought I was being called to be close to God, but I felt then that he was calling me to be a minister not so much a pastor but a minister. So I made that mention to, well actually before I accepted the call, I had been feeling you know, the guy was drawing me closer and I just you know kind of had this conversation with God. That said, look Lord. If you really want me to do this, you got to show me a sign, you know, you got it. Somehow show me a sign and let me know that this is really what you want me to do. And I'll never forget the day that I said that I got a call I wasn't working, I got a call from my choir director because I was a pretty good singer, so I was singing in the choir and the choir director happened to call me when she never called me at work. And at that time I was real busy. So it was rare that people could call and actually reach me without going to voicemail. But she called, I happen to answer the phone and she just said, Robbie yesterday you were praying, you know before we started to sing, and God just spoke to me that he wants to use you. And this was the day that I had, the morning that I told God I needed a sign. So bottom line is when she called me, I accepted that that was God's confirmation. So then I went to my pastor and told him that I believed God was calling me to the ministry. So that's how I got involved in being a minister and it was only years later that you know, I felt him calling me to actually Pastor a church which has a whole different level of responsibility.

Could I have you sort of describe how you how you moved into being a pastor and sort of what those differences are?

Yeah, so I would say, you know, so God eventually started to, put it this way. I started when I was as a minister. I ended up being over the youth ministry. So I was kind of like a youth pastor even though I didn't have that title, but I was kind of, you know people at the church saw me as the youth pastor at that time. We probably had I don't know maybe 300 members at the church I was at. And then I started to my wife and I became leads in the marriage Ministry. So we were really heavily involved in families with when you deal with the youth and the married couples. That's really the heartbeat, you know of a growing church. And so I started to feel that God was putting me in that position to where I was having more interactions with families and starting to get that connection with you know, what it would take to minister to the whole families. And so eventually there became an opening at the church. So anyway the church that I was at at that time when I was a youth pastor, I ended up leaving that church and went to a bigger Church. It had about 2,000 people a Baptist Church and I was one of 20 associate ministers. So I was real far from being a pastor. I was just doing my role as one of 20, but then a position became open at my old church and I felt God calling me to Pastor the church. Now ironically, it seemed like all of the stars had aligned and I know the people at the church, you know, I had a lot of support there because when I left I left on good terms, right? It wasn't on bad terms when I left the church. And so I just felt that this was God opening that door for me at to be the pastor. Well, it turns out that I was one of three candidates but the board that was involved ended up selecting a different gentleman to be the pastor. So I didn't get the pastor there and quite honestly I was very hurt because, you know, I had been there. I know the people knew me and the person that they ended up selecting was new, he wasn't even a part of the church. But what I found out later, and this just shows you how God works and by you know, and it's in the Scripture, it says all things work together for good to those who love the Lord and are called according to his purpose. And what I realized is God did that because he needed to prepare me and he needed to prepare the church. So what he did is he, I was at this other church. I mentioned is bigger Church where I was one of 20 some odd ministers. But while I was there, he had me under a pastor who took me under his wing and really started to teach me and help me to understand what it meant to be a pastor. And then after about three years the pastor that my old church had gotten, they had a problem and they put him out, and then basically they called me to come back to be the pastor and I believe over that three-year period he had to teach them that you know, all the Glitters ain’t gold. And sometimes you know, again is another scripture where Jesus says a prophet is not without honor except in his own house, which basically says it's the people that are closest to you that think the least of you. You’re common to them and I believe that the people at my old church when I was up for the first time they were like, well, that's just Robbie, right? We know him. He was the associate Minister. He was the youth pastor, but that's just Robbie. He's not a pastor. This other guy who they never knew, oh, he looks like a pastor. He sounds like a pastor right? And so I think he had to teach them and teach me that you know, he was preparing me. And so bottom line is the second time, they opened their arms and welcomed me as the pastor and that's where I've been the last five years.

So you asked me one other question you said, what is it? How is it different? Well, you know as a pastor people really look to you as their Spiritual leader. They look to you as the closest connection they have to God in an Earthly being right. So they understand that I'm human. I'm not a Divine being or anything, but you know, they expect their Pastor to be an extension of their family. They expect their Pastor to be someone that they can call on and count on regardless of the day, the time, or the situation. They expect their Pastor to be a person who can not only give them God's word and give them revelation and illumination of God's word, but can also be there when they just are having problems in their lives and somehow they look for the Pastor to be that person that they look up to that they trust that can help them get through whatever situations they're dealing with. And so to me, there's a pretty big difference and a bigger responsibility of being a pastor because you know, you are The Shepherd of all the people. And whether it's you know, 20 people 200 people are 2,000 people they looking…when…and he's right when they're sick… matter…are still to come and so there's a pretty significant difference.

Right. Thank you. I think I broke up just a very little bit at the end and I got I heard it but I want to make sure I'm not sure if the connection is is a little wonky. So I just wanted to let you know. I think it's okay now, but I just wanted to give you a heads-up.

Okay? Okay.

In case we break up we have to get back online. Okay, so thinking about sort of you know that grounded spirituality to where you are. Now, how do you do you think there's a connection between those? That, like there was a clear path from from A to B sort of? I know you've described, you know, how that that moment of sort of being called to be first a minister happened in your earlier the teenage years and then into your 20s. Do you feel like, you know, that the experiences of sort of your youth LED you to that place?

Yeah, short answer I would say yes, but I would I would answer it this way. I believe from God's planning and perspective, it was a very clear path. I would say from my viewpoint, it was anything but clear, right? I could not connect the dots of the experiences that I had as a youth to the experiences that I've had as a young teenager, then ultimately as a young man. And even my experience as the initial youth pastor and the minister at the church before I left there was no way that in I could have connected all of those dots to see that this was God's plan for me. So for me, it was anything but clear but I can see how it was always clear to God, how he put me in certain situations even putting me in situations where again I moved from one neighborhood to another neighborhood the neighborhood changed I moved from one you know state to another state and things change. But I think in all of that it gave me a an understanding of how to deal with different people, especially different races of people, because at one point I was a majority and another point I was a minority and I got to see both sides and I think I got to have that empathy and understanding of how people of different cultures and their and different colors how they can still you know, come together and relate. And yet and yet still how they're different. I’m moving around just because I'm getting a low battery signal so I'm just going to make sure I plug in that's all this happening now. So let me just move where I can plug it in.

Not a problem!

Okay. Alrighty. Okay, everything still connected. Yep, I'm here.

Okay, so thinking about how would you describe your current belief system? Like if you had to sort of describe it to someone who isn't sort of part of that community. How would you describe it?

Okay, I mean well when we talk about a belief system, that could be very broad. It could be very narrow. So I guess let me answer it this way right at the broadest level, I believe in a higher deity. I believe there is a God, right? I believe that there is something that exists outside of anything that man can do. And therefore I believe that deity is the one that created this Earth. When I look at the Moon the stars the Sun and things like the trees and the waters and the mountains. For me that has to be intelligent design and not something that just happened because there was some collision that happened. When I look at the creatures that exist on the earth, whether it be the flying things whether it be butterflies or birds, whether it be crawling creatures or fish in the sea, or when I go to the zoo or other places and see these animals just look marvelous and you know outstanding for me. There has to be a God that did all of that. So with that basic understanding then for me, it's like okay then who is this God. And for me, I believe because of my, you know, my reading of the Bible and partially because of my upbringing I believe that one God is is the God of the Trinity: of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit. And I believe it's still one God one in its uniqueness, one in its wholeness, even though it's represented in the three persons the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. But yet and still it's the essence of that one God, you know, the attributes are shared by each of those entities, but it's still one God because the it all works together just like I’ve got one family even though they're different member. I've got one body even though I've got 10 fingers, two hands, is still all one body. So that's my belief. So therefore I believe that Jesus is the savior of the world. I know from my own life experiences as good as I like to think I've been in life it’s only as good as it could be when I compare myself to other people. But as good as I think I've been in life, I know of the many things that I've done that again I am not proud of, I am ashamed of, I wish I had not done, and I realize that it's a nature in me that causes me to do that. Right? I'm a pastor. There's still some times where you know, push my button the wrong way and something's going to come out of my mouth. It's gonna sound like I'm not a pastor right? But at the same time, I understand that it's not about my works or how good I am. It's about my faith and what I believe and do I believe the plan of the God that I serve that says you need a savior because the only way to pay for your sins is to have some blood that is is guiltless. And because there's guilt in you I'm going to make, provide for you the Supreme sacrifice, but you've got to believe that this is real and therefore I can justify you and now you can have a relationship with me. That is my faith.

Wonderful. Thank you. And then thinking about what are what would you describe as your some of your regular practices that are sort of a foundational part of of your faith?

Well clearly prayer right has it is is that the foundation of it. You know, making sure that on a daily basis I am communing with my God who you know, I believe allows me to fellowship with him through my prayers whether they're spoken or silent. That's my connection. I try to read my word regularly. I won't say every day, you know, but many most days I try to get into the word which for me is the Holy Bible. I tried to study. So, it's one thing to read. It's another thing to study.

Absolutely.

So in addition to reading I spend a lot of time trying to study. And how do I study? Well, sometimes it's comparing scripture to scripture to see how the scriptures lineup do they, you know, tell the same story or do they provide further revelation about something that may have been started in one book and it's just being brought forward in another book. I study by looking at different translations reading different translations of the Bible, understanding that the people that translated are still human and sometimes you know one person may look at something and say I believe this is what it says and another person says, I believe that is what it says. So that's another way. Clearly I have you know study guides and study books, concordances and you know, things like that. And then I always, you know, there's some internet searches I'll do, you know search things on the internet, you know, I have to be careful about sources right? I don't go into blogs and use that is my sources because blogs is just people talking. Most of them probably haven’t read the Bible or haven’t read it as much as I’ve read it, but I know there are some learned, you know, theologians and people who have made a profession of it and a study of it. Now one of the interesting things I don't have a masters or doctoral degree in Divinity, but I did attend Wheaton Bible College for a brief time when I was a youth pastor because my plan at that time was to get a masters degree I just I got sidetracked when I left that church and went to the other church and I just never finished. But the point that I'm making is, I found something that was really enlightening and interesting to me. When I was there at the school there were people who were pursuing a master's degree and ultimately a doctor's degree and, you notice earlier when I, to you I talked about it being a calling for me where I felt God was calling me to this. It wasn't something I just said, Hey, I need a job, what do I want to do? But when I got to the school and I was talking about my experience and my calling, I found that several I won't say many I won't say most, but I'll say several people were looking at it from an academic perspective. They were looking at it saying well, you know for me I went to college and I studied accounting. So where I studied accounting they said well, I'm studying Divinity. But when I graduate they're going to make me a pastor and put me at of church, and I said well, do you feel God is calling you? And they said well I don't feel a calling but I just think that you know, if I learn this stuff I'll be good at it, right? And to me because it let me know that there are some people who are in the role that I'm not sure they have a deep connection with God. They may have a deep educational experience with God, but I'm not sure that they have the connection themselves and therefore not sure if they really have the Holy Spirit leading and guiding them. So it was just an interesting thing for me. So anyway, that's kind of you know, how I got into it and how I feel about it.

Absolutely, that makes complete sense to me. And in thinking about, going sort of to some of these questions about black lives matter, and what you're sort of, you sort of describe your experiences growing up well being like within the community and then also what it felt like to move somewhere where you were kind of an outsider or sort of the minority in that setting. How do you feel like that impacted your perspective on race in the United States. That's like a big question.

Yeah, I mean I’ll say this. I had an experience when I moved. So again, I moved from Chicago to a place called Union Pier Michigan. Okay small, this kind of New Buffalo Michigan is kind of an area where he got a lot of people from Chicago have second homes or summer homes there. So it's about hour, hour and a half from downtown Chicago not far, but it's in the state of Michigan. And so again, I was in high school and so when I got in high school, I played sports. And so I befriended a white guy his name was Bobby Kerns and he and I became really good friends. We would fish, something I've never done in Chicago, right? But, you know, you can get a fishing pole. You can walk to a little place and fish you can hunt you can do a lot of things that I wasn't able to do in Chicago. But anyway Bobby and I got to be friends and so he got a job at a summer resort as a waiter. And so I guess the owner of the resort said, hey, we need help if you know anybody that wants to work. Tell him to show up with black pants white shirt, we can put them to work. So he said hey man, you're interested in a job. I'm like, does it pay money? He said, yes, it does absolutely right. So I put on my black pants and a white shirt the next day and I went with him. Well as I'm walking up the guy kind of calls Bobby away from me. So he said let me talk to you for a minute and Bobby came back to me and this is what he said. He said the guy said you can't be a waiter but you can wash the dishes. That was my first-hand experience with racism and that was something that I will never forget and it was something that cut me to the bone at that time. That he said no, you can't be a waiter but you can wash the dishes. And at that time I you know, I'm sure I cursed and said some things I shouldn't have said and left. But I went home, and I because I was hurt I went home and my mom, you know is like what's going on, why are you back. And I explain and I broke down and cried because I was hurt. And my mother being a strong black woman that she was, she said, let me tell you something son. She said that may have been the first time that you've experienced it, but it won’t be the last. She said, it's not right but that's how life is. She said, but here's what I want to ask you. She said, why did you want that job? And I said, what do you mean. She said why did you go to for that job? And I said to make money. She said, okay, do they pay dishwashers? I said, yeah. She said well, why not wash the dishes? She said, you're not going there for a career you're going there for a job a summer job. Just make the money and know what the surroundings are. And at first I was like no I'm not going back. But you know, I listened to her and I did, and I went back and I got, I made money, now again, you know waiters got tips. So I didn't get any tips, but I did it and but it was a lesson that I learned. And so now, it didn't make me bitter against all white people, but it put me on edge to understand. There are some that don't mean you any good. And so I think it is caused me boy…blackness…it’s caused me to be more comfortable around people who are like me, but at the same time to not let it get me to the point where now I've become the racist that I hate, right. So from that perspective, it’s shaped me and help me at the same time because it helped me to understand the realisms of this world, but it also helped me to understand that not everybody is like that because Bobby was really upset, right? He couldn't understand it and you know, and I realize that it wasn't everybody who was like that but you know it has helped help to shape me.So I would say that environment in terms of black lives matter. Clearly me being a victim of that now, I've never I've had yeah, I've been to a had the police pull me over right even. I mean really the last you know few weeks, right? I'm driving down the street and I'm in you know one lane and the police are in another lane then all of a sudden they get in my lane and they happen to be behind you. Well, I'm always cognizant of the fact that they probably maybe running my plates maybe trying to see do I have any outstanding tickets, right? But I'm a lot calmer about it now because I'm 62 years old right? I'm not at the same place I was when I was younger, but you know. It’s still something that I think about and it's something that I know happened. So, you know, we you hear this thing about quote “the talk.” I've got a 20 year old son and my daughter is now 27, but I've had to have the talk with them. More so with my son then my daughter right that says hey, if you get pulled over put your hands on the wheel, you know roll down your window don't make any sudden movements. Yes, sir. No, sir, you know if he asks anything. Hey, I'm just here's what I'm about to do. I just feel you know, we have to have that extra level of communication because of the problems that have been happening and we see are still happening now. I don't fault every police and I would say most of them are not like that, but the problem is it's enough of them that like that are like that to the cause have caused problems and are still causing those problems.

Absolutely, and actually you sort of just touched on it from the perspective as a parent, but I was going to ask because it because I have heard this sort of “the talk” and that that you know goes to police brutality and experiences with police in terms of being pulled over, but that they're also sort of extensions of the talk for some people in terms of just how to walk through the world. And I'm wondering, you know, you had that conversation with your mom so you talked about that a little bit but sort of, lessons on how to walk through the world being a person of color? And I was also curious thinking about your father's perspective, since you mentioned he sort of was somewhat politically involved.

Yeah. Well, my father's is, it’s interesting, and again and this shows you how you know people today, and I'm gonna try to stay a political even though I’m very much, I’ve got a view, but people today that don't acknowledge systemic racism. I just told you about me having to talk to my son. That's one generation. I told you about my mother talking to me. That's the second generation. Let me go to the third generation, which is my parents. Okay? I think I mentioned my dad came from the south from Mobile, Alabama. Whereas my mom was born in Chicago, okay. When we were going through some things trying to move my parents, I came across his high school diploma. He graduated from The Whistler County Colored School. That's what's on his high school diploma The Whistler Whistler County Colored School. So at that time, right he had to go to a colored school. He could not go to the other school, right? It was very segregated. When I talked to my dad about growing up, he told me that when he was young, he didn't notice it as much. He said but when he turned 12 years old, he said the thing it was, it was different down South than up north. Because I asked him I said, I'm gonna go back to the story, but I asked him: Is it more racist down south or more racist up north, right? Because he moved to Chicago when he was about 20. And he’s, he had to think about it. He says here's how I would characterize it. He said, When you lived down south you knew who didn't like you. You knew who was racist. When I moved up north, people that I thought were okay, I didn't realize they were just as racist. If not more racist, than the people down the street. They just hid it. They masked it. They didn't let me know it. Down there to people let me know that they did, they call me N***** to my face. Up here, they would do it behind my back. He said the difference, he says, when I was down south we didn’t live so much in segregated neighborhoods. He said, you know, the white family lived next door, maybe next door to them there was a black family said we were all in the same neighborhood. We just couldn’t go to the same schools and do all the same stuff. He said but you know what we could do, when we were young, we played together. Because we lived, you know, we'd go out and play baseball. We would play together. He said but when I turned 12 years old, that's when it changed. At 12 years old, his friend said you can't know you can no longer call me Bobby or Joe or you know by my first name. Now, you gotta call me mister. And he said that was he said that once they turn 13 their parents all of a sudden it was like okay now, you know the person you've been playing with the first 12 years of your life is no longer your equal. You are above him and you can't play with him anymore. So he said that's what changed but he says at least people let him know. Right when he came up North it was masked. So that was a big difference. Now again from a political perspective again, all the neighborhoods were very segregated. At that time Mayor Daley who was you know, the mayor for many many years Richard M Daley. He was smart in this regard. He tried to do things where it was separate but pretty much equal. Okay, so he had his Irish neighborhoods that’s where he lived as he was Irish, right? He had his Polish neighborhoods. He had his Jewish neighborhoods. He had his you know, Latino neighborhoods and he had his Black neighborhoods. But he would try to make sure that they all had services. So, you know the garbage pickup in my neighborhood was like the garbage pickup in his neighborhood. The difference was you stay in your hood and don't cross the tracks. Long as you don’t go cross the tracks, everything is fine. So that's how I grew up.

And you know thinking about sort of those family stories. Did your mom have sort of similar family stories that she sort of told, your dad sort of talked about his background from being from Mobile, did your mom have sort of stories that she passed on to you?

To a racist perspective, like Black Lives, from that perspective? Is that your question?

I'm just just like be like being from a race perspective in general not necessarily.It doesn’t necessarily have to be like, you know, experiencing racism, but you okay being basically a POC in the United States in general.

She grew up with a predominantly black neighborhood the school the high school that she went to was a predominantly black high school.You know, her life was pretty much just around black people most of the time. Now, she did, ended up doing domestic work for people, her and my grandmother, right? And so they ended up working for you know various Jewish families just housekeeping, cleaning and things like that. Right? And you know, she just said she noticed how you know, they were always kind of watching, you know to make sure you're not in there stealing their stuff and sometimes they would test you they would put out money or put out something, you know to see if you take it right? And so she said, you know one time she took it for the purpose of the next day coming back. Cause she just you know, she was offended by it. So she said she took it and then the next day knowing that they were going to try to accuse her, before they could accuse her she said, oh, here's the money you set out for me because I know you were trying to test me. Right so she had those kind of things but she said once she did that though. She said they apologized and from that point at least they had a good relationship. She also said though that she worked for a guy in a retail store a Jewish store and she said he was real good at really trying to teach her about business and life. And I think what he saw in her as someone that had, you know, a good mind good aspirations was a hard worker, and he saw as you know she has some potential in life, and so he kind of mentored her and kind of you know explained to her the things that she would need to do to be successful in the world if she wanted to get out, you know outside of her neighborhood and do some other things. And so she did say that that was a big help for her. So she respected the fact that you know, he took time to try to help her in that regard. So, you know for her again, it was mainly, you know, growing up in areas where just her whole life was pretty much an African-American life, right. The parties they went to the bars and clubs that they went, to dances that they went…It’s a lot of the real big black entertainers, you know Davis jr. Lena Horne…Chicago to the big clubs, right? And she said that's when you know, a lot of the white people would come down there because they, you know, really enjoyed the music the dancing and all of that right but when they were in the club, everybody was fine, you know wasn't any problems or anything. But you know, you couldn't just go in their neighborhood and go to a club but they could come to your neighborhood and come to your club. But she said, you know, at least you know, we got along and everybody was fine. It wasn't any issues when they came so that was kind of her experience.Now she did tell me one time when she went down South because she had her one of her sisters end up going to Nashville, Tennessee. And so she went down there to visit. And you know, she wasn't used to the segregated water fountains and all of that and sitting on the back of the bus and so her growing up in Chicago, she kind of had this chip on her shoulder about. Hey, I'm not, you know going to you know, I'm not going to comply with all of that stuff. But you know, her sister told her look you don't understand down South. They will kill you. So, you know, you better check your attitude at the door and do what they tell you to do down here. When you go back up North then you can ride on the front of the bus will but while you’re down here you better get on the back like me. So, you know, she did have some experiences like that. Those are some of the things that she did share with me. But my father's family. Like I said when they came from Mobile they came because they were looking for work, and there were you know more jobs industrial type of jobs up north. You know, they never got into the factory jobs because as I mentioned my dad was a bricklayer my grandfather was a bricklayer as well. So he taught my dad how to do bricks and but they had you know, you know, we always were a very middle-class family would never broke never poor never on food stamps always lived in a decent neighborhood started out in an apartment. But like I said when I moved into that Jewish neighborhood, they bought a home, and so for most of my life we lived in a house.

Awesome and thinking about sort of now you mean you're a parent of nearly adult kids too so are there stories you tell them that you pass on to them?

I tell them a lot of things just about me growing up and you know, some of the things that I did and didn't do. You know try to more or less just try to help them to learn from some of the mistakes that I made but also I try to make sure that they are grounded in their blackness. You know, I firmly believe that all of us have a little racist in us. Okay, I believe that. We all have a little bit. Now when I say a little bit, I mean that I think most people prefer and a more comfortable around people who look like them. You made the statement yourself when you moved from that small town to the big city all of a sudden you saw some people who what? Looked like you. So from that perspective. I say it's a little racist. It's not the extreme, I can't stand other people, but my point is I think we are most comfortable around people who we feel are like us and a big part of being like us means you may look like me, which is the start. Now, there are some folks who look like me that, you know aren't like me. I say everybody who's my skin folk ain't my Kinfolk. Okay, so just cause doesn’t mean you and I are gonna be on the same page.You know, I try to help them understand that. I try to help them to understand that it's okay to have friends of all colors and that's good. Not even this OK it's good. But you know don't be surprised. If you come to find out that sometimes one or two of them may turn on you when you least expect it, right, but if you're grounded in yourself and in your Blackness, you should be okay, right. So you know in my family when I said my family, my full family meaning including my wife's side. We have a few, you know, interracial marriages and I'm fine with all of them. I'm not, it's none of them that I dislike right. Now when it comes to my daughter and son, do I prefer them having someone that’s African-American I'm just being transparent and honest that would be my preference. Would I oppose them being with someone of another color/nationality, no. So I'm not going to oppose it, but it would be my preference. Now, why is it my preference? Because I just think life is easier in that environment. I've been in the situation where I dated outside of my race. I sat down in a restaurant with a young lady we were just, right, having dinner many many many years. Well before I get married right many many years ago, and I'll never forget we were sitting down eating. She happen to be Caucasian right and a couple who was, were probably, I was in my 20s, they were probably in their late 40s early 50s. Were sitting at a table next to us and I noticed the lady at the table just kept staring and having this this mean look right like, I can't you know, like I can't believe that you know that she's with him or he's with her or whatever right? And I you know, I'm ignoring her because I don't know you and don't care about you, right. But as they were leaving and we were still eating she stopped at the table, looked at me and then looked at the other girl, and says some people and walked out so, you know that lets me know that it's harder. But if I was there with a black woman, she wouldn’t even have been looking at my table, right? So it exists. So my point is I think a lot of us have this implicit bias, let's let's call it that you know, you can say is a hint a tinge of racism, but maybe it's better to say is just implicit bias rather than racism because to me racism really, the the heart of it is saying, I can't stand other people because of their race.

Yeah, I mean, I agree. I think definitely we all have sort of those subconscious prejudices, even if they're yeah, I think that's totally true. Thinking about sort of placing your personal experiences in the context of US History particular. How do you how do you sort of do you feel like you have connected your life experiences and your family's life experiences with that longer history? Of particularly race in the United States.

Well, again, I feel a connection with the forefathers of the past that had to go through things. I clearly believe that they had it a lot worse than I had it or will ever have it. I am very much a supporter of the people that have been the Trailblazers before us right, so I'm here today because I'm standing on the shoulders of other individuals who had to endure some things, go through some things, or just be the initiators of some actions and activities that have given me some luxuries that I would not have otherwise had. Right luxuries or just rights, so like voting for me, is very important. Who you vote for is your decision, right? Clearly, I'm going to have a view. But as a pastor, I don't believe, I know some pastors and some Churches kind of tell their people who they think they should vote for. I think that's wrong. Okay, but I think it's very much right for me to talk to my church about the importance of voting. I believe much of the progress that black people have gotten in this country has been because the churches were not just spiritual centers, but they were the urban centers of the black community that helped them to understand what they needed to do to survive and to make it in life, and not just to have the spirituality. So I believe it's been twofold. And so I believe it's very important for me to carry on at least that form of the tradition. So the people today don't forget the sacrifices that were made before us. And how it's gotten to us to where we are, right? I don't think I would be living in a suburb. I told you when I moved in the city people left me in the city so they can get to the suburbs. They wanted to get away from me. That's why this rhetoric today about hey they're coming out to your suburbs really pisses me off, right because I understand what they're trying to say. But I believe the fact and the reason that I have a home in the suburb today and I'm fortunate enough and blessed to be able to raise my children in the suburb is not just because some nice hearted people decided, hey, we ought to let them out here is because some people fought for my rights and a lot of that came through voting. And so again, I have to to be the one that's going to promote that with my congregation. Now interestingly I had one member of my church recently tell me that she was a little disappointed because I brought up voting in my sermon. And I said, well did I say anything about who they should vote for? She said no. I said well, what's the problem? Then she got into her dialogue, but I said, well this would be one, we just have to agree to disagree right. I'm gonna argue with you and and you're entitled to your opinion. I said we're going to have to agree to disagree. I said, but I will never stop telling people to vote. So if that is something you have a problem with maybe this in the church for you, but as long as I'm here, I'm not going to ever stop telling people vote, but I won't tell them who to vote for. Because there's too much that has led up to our ability to be where we are. And I think that's the foundational right that we must must have and must exercise.

Absolutely. I completely agree. Thinking about then, what’s, if you could define your personal sort of connection to Black Lives Matter. If you feel like you have sort of a direct connection or have been directly involved in that movement in your personal life not you know as well. Since I know you probably since you said you try and kind of keep your role as a pastor apolitical.

So in terms of my active role, I participated in one march and I haven't done several marches, I did participate in one march for black lives matter. And I believe this was shortly after George Floyd, you know was killed murdered what, you know, so I participated in the march. You know whenever I talk to people…like I did a YouTube video again right after the George Floyd killing…And the title of it was Good Mourning America. But it wasn’t, Good morning, m-o-r-n-i-n-g. It was good mourning, m-o-u-r-n-i-n-g. Good mourning because we as a black community and a black people we are mourning, and this country ought to be mourning what's going on. And I talked about, why is it America that you hate us so much? We've done a lot for this country, you know, we helped to build this country. We bled for this country. We fought wars for this country. You know our music, you know, I mean hip hop music is more white people buying hip-hop music than black people. You know you love our culture but you don't love us. Why is that America? What is it? Is it really the color of our skin, because I commented that I've seen white people hug and kiss black dogs. So if you hug and kiss a black dog, why do you hate black people? All right, so it's something going on. Right? So I, if you're interested I can send you the link.

I would love for you to send me the link. And thinking about you know, the Black Lives Matter movement in the context of of this sort of long US history that you've sort of also described in terms of you know, the Trail Blazers that have come before us do you feel like this is a part of that longer story?

Absolutely I do! And I want to be clear, right, when I say Black Lives Matter. I'm saying black lives matter because all lives matter. But if I'm going to say all lives matter, I've got to be able to say black lives matter. Now if someone asked me too well, what about white lives my answer would be white lives matter, what about brown, brown lives matter, get another color that life matters, but they all matter. So to me, I have a problem with people who can only say all lives matter but can't say black lives matter. To me I just I don't see the problem was say it now, do they matter more? No, do they matter less? No, but it matters. Now we've been through more stuff than most people. So the fact that it's being called out and acknowledge today to me isn’t saying that it's more important, but it all it's doing is trying to make up for the 400 years that we were overlooked. Right? I mean our Constitution overlooked black people. We did not get the right to vote until the 60s right to truly vote that voting rights because they said okay. Okay, here's a jar of beans tell me how many jelly beans in this jar. And if you can't tell me you can't vote. Hey, I mean it’s ridiculous. So, you know to me I feel that it's a part of a long struggle. I don't think this is the end of the struggle. I believe it's going to go on for my, you know, if I have grandchildren. I think their children will still be, you know dealing with this. But I think it's it's going to get better. I think it is has gotten better from where it was when my father was a young man. I think it has gotten better than the point when I was a young man, but we got to make sure that we don't get so complacent and comfortable in it. We have arrived, or other people getting so complacent and comfortable saying well, you know, look at you now, you're not, you know, you're not in chains now, you know, you got, you can vote now. What's the problem? Well, yeah we can now but that doesn't mean we still have the the benefit that you have, right. When I talk to my white friends. I say I know that you have struggles and you have trials and tribulations in life isn't all peachy keen for you, but you'd be hard-pressed to tell me anything that you've been rejected for because you were white. Okay, I could tell you, I told you when I was in high school when I tried to get that job. I couldn't get that job because I was black right? So my point is until we get to the point where you know, my blackness doesn't inhibit me from anything, there's more work to be done.

Absolutely, and thinking about sort of some of your conversations and experiences that you've had since sort of the movement blew up over the summer, is there any specific moments experiences or conversations that have been in particularly impactful to you?

Mostly what’s been impactful is the diversity that I have seen in supporting the Black Lives Matter movement. When I went in March clearly there were more Caucasians. I would say, you know 70% of the people marching were below the age of 30. That to me was encouraging, that young people that probably grew up in the suburbs, that probably you know, they have a couple three black friends, but it never been a minority in their lifetime right? See think about it, when I go anywhere outside of my church and my home, I am the minority. If I walked out of my house right now and went to the grocery store, I'm going to be the minority. If I go tomorrow to the post office, I'm going to be the minority. If I go to my bank, I'm going to be the minority. If I go to the cleaners, I'm going to be the minority, right. And I've gotten used to it. But other people until they are in the minority, they don't understand it, right. They don't understand what it is to be in the minority and how you have to navigate through things because it's so much easier for other people. They just don't understand and I understand why they don't understand, because they've never walked in my shoes and then but they don't understand how fortunate they are not to have walked in my shoes. So anyway that made a big impact on me when I saw young people and people that like I said, this may be the first, you know civil protests that they've ever involved themselves in and it's not something that's directly affecting them it’s indirectly affecting them but they see is something wrong in the country that they love and they're not ashamed to speak up for, as a matter of fact, they feel this their duty to speak up for and to do and to act upon it, that's helped me. In the neighborhood that I live in you know, there's probably out of 200 homes. There may be five, you know people of Color in my particular neighborhood. I live in a pretty upscale neighborhood, you know because of the years I mean working and I’ve been doing other things and my wife working as well. But my point is in my neighborhood, I actually saw a couple signs black lives matter on lawns and that encouraged me as well. So those are some things that I look to that give me some hope and some encouragement that things can change. But I also see how the resistance of those who are comfortable where things are and are intimidated by change. I can see how that's causing an uprising that does concern me in this country.

Absolutely, so bringing it the two things kind of together now, I would ask. I'm going to ask this on two levels because I know you know, you also have a unique experience being a pastor. What do you feel like, if there is and what kind of, how would you describe the intersection between your sort of personal faith and you know being involved or supporting Black Lives Matter movement, and then also how that translates into you know, being a pastor because you know what you personally believe and how those intersect might be different than how that translates?

Okay, so the way that I try to conduct myself and think about things is my faith has to come before any and everything else right? So my faith comes first, my family comes next, I would say my country comes after that, I would say my party comes after that. So there are levels of it. But at the top of my pyramid is my faith. Okay, so if I was Maslow's, you know whatever faith is at the top for me. So with that the intersection of Black Lives Matter and all of that. I know that God created all of us, and I know that biblically, or let me say I believe because it's all about faith it’s not about knowledge, it's about faith. My faith says that we are all related. If you believe the creation story, if you believe the story of the flood, and if you believe then that God had removed all of the humans from the Earth, except Noah his three sons and their wives so there were eight people in all. That would tell us that all of the the human beings that exist on this Earth today had to come from that family, from those eight people, and really six because Noah and his wife, there’s no record of them having any more kids. So from those six people all of the people of the world over time came to be. That means we're all related, right? We're all distant cousins. And so it doesn't matter the fact that the melatonin in someone's skin is lighter or darker than another. It doesn't matter that the hair of one person is curlier or straighter than the other. Our core, we are the same. When you look at DNA that, you know naturally each of us have our own DNA, but at the core of our DNA are some things that that we all share in common, right? So when I try to look at Black Lives Matter when I try to look at, you know racism things that go on and I look at the church, I have to go back to God's word that says love your neighbor as yourself. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son. Right? So everything that I do has to be centered on the word of God. I tell my congregation all the time right, about love. Well sometimes I gotta love people I really don't like. And even though I don't like them, I still gotta love them and that's not easy to do right. But it's something that we are required to do because God loved us that much. In my church, you know, one of the things that I talked about is one of the places I'm not a minority is my church because our church is predominantly black. And why is it? Because like I said, Martin Luther King said many many years ago that the most segregated hour in the United States is noon on Sunday. That's the most segregated hour in the United States, noon on Sunday because that's when white people are in their Church, the black people in their Church, Latin people are in their Church, the Asian people in their church, right? And in my church is predominantly black and I have to make sure that I still, but we're in a predominantly white neighborhood, so I'm reaching out to everybody to come join our church. We've had some white people have come to join our church. A small number, but some that have well some of my black Parishioners could be a little uncomfortable with that because all of a sudden it's like, doggone it. This was the one place I thought I could let my hair down, I could talk like I want to talk, be who I want to be, and now we got these other people in here, right? But as a pastor, I've got to say look this is what heaven is going to look like. If you want to get to heaven you better get used to being around some other people because everybody in heaven is not going to look like you. So the intersection for me is making sure that everything that I do as best I can starts with the word of God and my faith in God and the teachings of Jesus Christ that says hey, we've got to treat everybody the same. We got to love everybody. We got to forgive people that have done bad things to us. So I've got to forgive those racists who you know, didn’t let me get that job. I've got to forgive the racist that, when I was working in Corporate America making $100,000 a year, I would go in the store, but I happen to have on some sweatpants and maybe a hoodie and I'm getting followed around the store, like I'm going to come and shoplifting. I make more money than the doggone person following me around in the store. I have to forgive them for that, because as Jesus said on the cross forgive them Father for they know not what they do. So I just believe there are some people they really don't understand what they're doing and it's my job to try to make this world a little better place. I can't make the whole world better, but I can try to do that by making the people who are around me better, training them and teaching them so that when they go out into the world, there's a light that's being shown in the world and we're shedding light and not shedding hate so that's how I view it.

Absolutely, and I'm really curious because you know, you mentioned that your church is predominantly black and so, I don't want to break any Pastor Confidentiality Clauses, but thinking about you know people coming to you for guidance or if they're going through something emotionally or mentally right as you know, in part as a result of a lot of what's come up during this movement. I'm wondering if that's something you found has been part of your role lately? To talk about what’s surrounding the movement and the current times we live in if that's sort of you know, feel like you feel like that’s been part of your role as Pastor lately?

Yeah, I would say that has not been the predominant thing. People are still just trying to deal with their own personal lives. They aren't the ones out there getting you know shot at shot up. They're concerned about it and want to you know, make sure that things are being done. But I haven't had to really counsel people on that. But there’s differences even in a black church. There are some people that support Black Lives Matter and some people that don't. And it is very few that don't but the ones that don't I think they see it as not really a black lives movement, but a movement of some other people that are using black lives to get a different agenda going right. And some of that has happened, right? We see some of the rioting and the looting are non-black people are starting some of the stuff right? You don't go down, you know some of these cities and downtown all of a sudden there's a whole bunch of bricks just sitting around for you to throw in windows right. Bricks don't just sit around in cities. Somebody had to bring those bricks and plates on their right to get you to throw them. So some of that is real and we just have to have accept it, but again as in my role as pastor but I do have to talk to people when they want to talk about it. I need to be at least enough socially conscious where I address these matters from the pulpit, but I got to refrain from being too political or being too Afrocentric. I got to make sure that it's still all based on the word of God. I never want any of my sermons to offend anybody if you're white, asian, Latin whatever I don't want you to go there and feel like I didn't say anything that pertained to you because all I did was talk to these other black people. So that's something I'm conscious of that. I got to make sure that I speak to all people but as I speak to all people I'm not going to ever stop talking about the truth and talking about things that matter. But if we're all Christians and believe that if a brother or sister is hurting, you ought to hurt as well and if they need help you ought to be there to help them. So I just, it’s just a balance that I've got to try to find and hopefully I'm threading that needle pretty well.

Absolutely, and so on that note thinking about you talked a little bit about, you know, just having to learn to love people and forgive people even if you don't always like what they have to say or agree with them or that kind of thing. And so I'm kind of wondering your perspective on how you have communicated with people who identify as being Christian, but fall onto the other side of this issue and like can’t, can only say all lives as you gave the example earlier. Like, how do you have those conversations?

Those are tough conversations. When I'm dealing with people who claim to be Christian. I try to use the word of God because that's something that neither one of us should be able to debate now. The problem is we can interpret a scripture differently, but we can't debate that. That's what the scripture says. We can debate what it means but we can't debate what it says. So when I come across people like that. I simply just try to use the word of God and I try to explain how we have to understand the text, but we also have to understand the context. Because you know, if you only look at the text, you can support being a racist, and support killing people. The Bible says an eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth. You can focus on the text, but miss the context. God told the Israelites, you know, don't marry some of those other people whose land they were the, Canaanites the Jesuits the Amorites, don't marry those people. Well, was he making a racial statement? The answer is really no. He said don't marry them because they serve different gods and if you marry them, your faith, they're going to now take you into into service. It has nothing to do with their color. But people can take that scripture and say see that's why, if that's like the lady at the restaurant. She could look at me. She might have been a Christian but she's looking at me like I remember that scripture, God said don’t intermarry. It had nothing to do with race. It had everything to do about religion. So when I find people like that, I just try to focus on the scripture and at the end of the day, just like Paul and Barnabas had a disagreement, I realize that hey there's somethings we'll just have to agree to disagree. And you know, you have to have to one day stand before the same God that I'm going to have to stand before. And I believe when we stand before God all of us will find out there are some things that we believe here that we had wrong. All of us. Some things that we firmly believed were right, but we had wrong, you know. I have a problem personally with the people who say they're on the Evangelical right and all they want to focus on our unborn lives. Okay. Well, what about the lives of people who were born and are being killed? What about those lives? You know don't they matter too? You know, what about the poor people. The Bible talks about, you know caring for the widow and the poor. I agree that we ought to protect unborn lives. But you know, I have a problem with people who support candidates who say yeah, we're, you know pro-life, but I'm also cutting programs that the feed kids to go to school. I'm cutting programs that give people assistance to pay their rent. I'm cutting stimulus funding for people that I know are hurting right now. I'm cutting a Health Care program that I know people in the middle of a pandemic won't have coverage, but I'm going to cut it anyway. So to me I have that problem. And so they're going to be some of my brothers and sisters who are Christians that we will just disagree and I'll talk to them, but I know it's not, my job is not to change. It's to enlighten their minds, that's how I view it. And if I've enlightened them and they don't change that's between them and God.

Absolutely, and so I could have to sort of wrap up questions for you thinking about and looking at both of these things which is what would be for you personally, you know your ultimate goal or desire for, to come out, of black lives matter movement. And then what is your sort of ultimate goal on desire in your spiritual practice?

Okay, okay. My ultimate goal and desire is that, the younger generation because I believe the older generation their minds made up and you know, they're not going to be changed that much. But I really believe hoping that out of this black lives matter. That we will get to the point where we never again have to say black lives matter because it's just the way that it is. We all recognize it, we are fighting to make sure that they're no inequality… and therefore there's no need to call out that the state matters is that's that's how we live and that's what we're about. So my ultimate hope is that very soon…They know what I say on this weeks or months that…or period of time that people will come around and recognize that there needs to be some systemic changes. And we'll start to make those changes. We’ll make those changes in our, in how we educate our young people so that they will understand some of the rest of the history of this country, good and bad, that you know, we can can get back to having social discussions that are more amicable and you know, we can just get to be truly what God created us to be, which is where it should all be one people.That's my hope for Black Lives Matter that ultimately it's something we don't even have to talk about anymore because it's just the way that life is. And in terms of you know spirituality. I'm just believing or praying that God will continue to use me in this role for the time that he has. I don't necessarily want to you know die in this position now, I want to die a Minister of Christ and a Christian. I don't necessarily have to die a Pastor. So that's something that guy can move me on and bring somebody else in to fulfill later in life. But for the time being and until I feel that he's relieved me of the Pastoral duties, I'm going to continue to do the best that I can to try to shape people's lives, enhance people's lives, and to get them to grow spiritually so that they can deal with the things that they have to deal with in the carnal life that they would that we're all living.

Absolutely. So we're reaching the end here and the one last thing I'll just say is and is there anything I didn't ask you tonight that you would like to say or answer.

No, no not really I think we covered a lot. I can’t think of anything like, I wish you'd asked me this question, so I can't think of anything. No.

Perfect. Okay. Well that that covers it here. I'm going to stop the recording.