Kenneth Payne Interview, October 12, 2020

Okay, so I am recording today with Kenneth Payne. We're gonna start just by saying, time and location. So for me, it's 11:01am and I'm in Washington, DC. How about you?

It's 11:01 am here as well, and I'm in Lexington, Kentucky.

Wonderful. Okay, and then just before we get started, I will ask you verbally just for your consent to record the interview. So and to conduct the interview, so if that's okay with you?

Yes .

Okay, perfect. So to start when and where were you born? Or, like, Where did you grow up because I know those aren't necessarily the same for everyone.

They're the same for me, I was born in Danville, Kentucky and raised there, stayed there until I went to school, to the State University of Frankfort, Kentucky, and then went back home. For a little while and eventually moved here to Lexington.

That's great. I went to Centre so we've got a little common connection.

Yeah, I didn't want to stay in Danville for school, so I chose not to go to Centre, but it's a good school.

I can totally understand that. I have a few friends who went there and were from Danville and they mentioned some of that trouble to me. So for you in terms of like growing up in Danville? What what was growing up like for you there

Um, it was cool for me, my community was great, my family foundation was really good. I had family there like my dad, my mother, I have a brother and a sister older brother and sister I'm the youngest. And also, like, had uncles and cousins first cousins. So some live like, the next street over so my experience was great. Like I said, the community was great. My church family was great. So my experience growing up in Danville was really good, and plus my father, he's very personable so he knew a lot of people, so I knew a lot of peopl because of him. So, yeah it was a good experience.

I think that kind of even goes into it. I was gonna ask you sort of just like for you like your family is like a big part of like that growing up experience. And you guys had like a really solid foundation both together. And then like, from family to community, it sounds like you guys had like really solid bonds.

Yeah, we did

Awesome. And so would you say like, considering, you know, you grew up in Danville, and you're still somewhat connected to that area, do you feel like your family has like a solid family history like in your community? Like Is that something you you guys have looked into in terms of like common family stories that have been passed down or that kind of thing.

Yeah, so the thing is neither one of my parents actually grew up in Danville. My mom is originally from Cincinnati, Ohio. And my dad is originally from Garrett County, Columbia, Kentucky area, where there are some colleges. So there's strong history in those areas. And sometimes Actually, my mother's side of the family grew up near Danville and in Danville. Some of them live in Danville. So kind of the outskirts of Danville there some where they live, a little strong history there. And but my parents because of how they were, you know what I'm saying, they built a strong, I think a strong, I don't know the word I want to use, but in the community, they were very important people in the community and they still are. Like I said, my dad is very personable. My mom, she does real estate. So there's, there's, there's been built, I guess, good traditions you could say.

How would you describe I know this is you're saying like, I don't know exactly how to describe it. But if you had to describe sort of like the role your parents have in your community in Danville, and then perhaps a little bit elsewhere, as well, how would you describe that?

So I'll start with my father. My father, he's retired from working for the city. He was a public works, I guess that's the title, worker. He retired from there, and also during that span of time, he would also do odds and ends like cut grass. So a lot of people, he cut grass for them, so he knew a lot of people that way. So after he retired, and my dad's a type of guy that he doesn't like to sit still, so he retired from there then he started working for the cleaners. He was a driver for the cleaners picking up clothes and doing things of that such. He ended up I think it's going on two years now, I believe, he had a heart attack. So he had, my mom made him quit that job. So he went through that little transition, got better, he's fine. So now he works at a nursing home, helping out in the nursing home. So he's built those type of relationships, which people in the community with public figures in the community, so he's kind of, he's kind of like, that guy that everybody loves to be around. He's always smiling. So it's kind of like, you know, when he's around everybody's in a good mood. And my mother, like I said, she, she's retired from, I don't think I mentioned this, but she retired from the circuit court, she was circuit clerk in the courthouse in Danville. And so she retired from that, and she's been doing real estate, as a real estate agent, for as long as I can remember. And so she's kind of my mother's kind of like that calming presence. So very, you know, meek in a, you know, in her words, is when she speaks, it's this kind of gives that calming, presence, calming presence. So I would say they, they're impacting in the community, my dad, dad, my mother impacted the community, it's kind of like, that solid family, you know, those solid individuals, real solid people in the community, who, who people can trust, and who people can look for, look towards for, you know, different things, you know, but just kind of like that, that solid, consistent type individuals.

Absolutely. Do you think for you thinking about sort of your role, now I know, you just based on our common connection of Karissa, that you are sort of in that social work sphere, correct? So how do you feel like that translated to sort of your current job or like that impacted your choices to sort of go into that career?

Well, I would say I don't know if it directly impacted it. But yeah, there's definitely some influence from it. Because as overall, as a general, I guess, outlook on my upbringing, and where I'm at now, and how I got here. It just kind of that path that I took, I feel like my parents, the way they raised me to be grounded, they kind of helped lead me to where I am, because like, I mentioned to you before we started recording, I'm a musician, so it's kind of something I do on the side. But you know, years ago, it could have been something that that I could have done, you know, I guess professionally as a career. But not that, you know, anything's wrong with that. But I feel like my parents, the way they raised me was to make sure I'm grounded and solid, so therefore I chose, you know, take this career path, you know, go to school, and, you know, take this career path, not saying that given the music industry isn't something just can be solid or secure. But, I mean, we're in a pandemic now. So it's kind of, you know, iffy for a lot of people, I feel that, that is what probably mostly influenced me was that, you know, being grounded, and being a solid calculator there, because neither one of my parents really working in any type of Social Work field, per se, but my sister was, so that that's kind of that connection, my sister and my cousin, who actually they both went to Centre as well. There's that connection. So yeah, I will say there's probably more so, you know, being grounded, it's finding something solid.

Absolutely. So in terms of thinking about sort of, what else sort of led you down that path for social work? What would you describe as sort of the impetus for that?

Well, when I was right out of right out of high school, I, during the summers right out of high school when I was in college, I would work at the children's home in Danville, which is, I think it's Sunrise now but it was,

So right by Centre College! Um, so I will work there and I, I really enjoyed it. I would only do it during the summers. And I really enjoyed it and really enjoyed working with the kids and seeing what type of impact you could have on you know, that type of demographic. So I think the interest was kind of was kind of built and then I went to college, came back home, worked some other jobs, and I ended up getting a job at a children's home in Versailles, and worked there and then kind of was building in that interest. Because initially, when I went to college, my plan was go to law school. But after four years, I was like, yeah, I don't think I want to do any more school. I need a break, I wish I would have kept on going but. So that, this wasn't my initial plan, but I feel like it was, I was being drawn to that. And I can kind of see now that that is definitely where I needed to be, you know, it can be effective in that area. So that's kind of what caused that

Yeah!

Yeah, that makes complete sense. I totally understand. Like, who we're not wanting to go back to school, it took me a couple of years to like, Buck up the courage to do it again. I completely get that. So, a little bit of a little bit of something that I think I mentioned to you, when when we, when you agreed to originally do the interview with me is that part of my project is also on faith and spirituality, and those practices. So for you, do you have any, like, childhood experiences of like growing up with faith or spirituality or any kind of religion? And how would you describe those?

So, it's funny because I did a interview not to long ago and this was brought up. But I, well we say church, of course you know, it's our faith, you know, but just as a general term we say church. So I grew up, church is really all I knew, because I had to work in church. I was the type of kid that went to church three, four times a week, you know. In Danville, my pastor is at a church in Danville, which I still belong to. So, my experience, was...it's kind of hard to just break in down into a few words because you get to where you know, people that didn't grow up in it, right, we can understand, I grew up in a Pentecostal church, so very charismatic. And then, you know, of course, like I said, I became a musician, so I was musician at my church. So I would, initially, when I was younger, I played piano organ, and then I had a cousin, we were similar age, he was playing drums at that point, then he took an interest in piano and the organ, he got better than me, so we had to switch up. So I had to play the drums, which I'm not a drummer. But we had to make that switch up. But the pastor was my uncle, his late wife, who passed away was my dad's sister. So I had that a little more of a connection with him in that I was his nephew. And also, you know, family, we were really close. And also my dad, initally, my dad, he was a member of his brothers church, in Garrett County, and mom was a member of the church in Danville, and then eventually my dad, because he lived in Danville, he just joined the church there in Danville. And they were very, very strong in their faith. My parents are, my mom, very spiritual. My dad very, very strong. So that was relayed to us. So like, there will be times where, well actually every morning before school, we would get up, get ready, and we'd pray before we leave to get on the bus. So that was instilled in me and my siblings at a very young age. So really, my, I guess my story about my faith is from a child, I've always had a really strong foundation of faith in church and it's, it's been it stuck with me until you know, to this day and in being able to not only just have the church experience and then leave there, there's nothing else but in my daily life, how I have that faith walk, because I grew up in a very strong home that's very strong in it's faith.

That completely makes sense. So I guess on that note, right, considering your like current belief systems, however, those might exist. How do you feel like that, you know, experience growing up impacts your time today? I think he sort of said like, it still impacts your daily life. So has that translated to like your beliefs now? Do you feel like that stayed really consistent? Or maybe you've taken a lot of it with you, but some of it has changed?

Um, for the most part yeah its stayed the same. I think the the way I look at certain things that maybe I was taught as a kid, I kind of look at it a little bit differently. But as a general rule, overall everything is basically the beliefs are still the same. It's just that, and I was a rebellious kid. So a lot of things as, as in my life, I've never just took it for face value, like, you will have to show me and explain to me why that is what it is. So in my faith, a lot of times, I've questioned certain things to get to the point to where, okay, I can see why, you know, saying it this way, or why it's this way, which is kind of ironic, because faith is supposed to, you know, it's not seeing but still believing. But yet, and still, I think you do in order to be sure that you're strong at what you believe you do have to have that educational piece of knowing why it is you do what you do. And that's kind of how I am with life in general. So, a lot of things I won't just take for face value, like I want to explain it. So certain things had been, as a kid, certain beliefs, to this day it's kind of like, okay, yeah maybe not. But overall it's pretty much the same.

Completely. So and do you so I know you said you're still a member of the church in Danville? Do you, are you also a member of a church in the Lexington area?

No, I've stayed at my church, and I'll play at other churches, I play at one in particular in Louisville, a church there, but I'm not part of any churches in Lexington.

That makes honestly, it's so close that like... um, okay, so and what are so, what are some of your maybe like regular practices that are part of your belief system? Like, do you have any, anything that you do like for yourself spiritually, regularly, that you consider, like part of your practice?

Totally! Daily prayers, um, reading my Bible, attending church services, and just trying to consciously be aware, be aware of how, you know, I live my daily life and make sure it is a reflection of the Christ that is on the inside of me.

Absolutely. Thank you so much. Okay. So now I'm kind of gonna switch on you a little bit and sort of ask you some questions about some of the background of your like, what you consider your experiences with race growing up and what that was like for you?

So like I said, my father was very, very personable person. So, never met a stranger. So a lot of my, my experience growing up in Danville as it relates to race, it was, it was good. Now, of course, hindsight, is 20/20. So looking back, certain things are kinda like, okay, that was a little, little different. But I think because of that, because people really like my father, I never really experienced a whole lot of race related issues. And also the school, I went to Danville High School, and I wouldn't say it was half and half, but there was a great, there was a good amount of African Americans, you know, like me. So that experience was good. So, as growing up, I didn't really experience a whole lot of race related issues. Now, I did see, you know, certain, I guess you can say, discriminatory issues, things of that such. And this is me kind of looking back over it. At the time, you know, as a kid, I didn't really see it. Now. There was an incident, coming out of the store there was a family where it was a little kid, this is crazy, because the kid was he was so young that they had him in a stroller, not a stroller but they had him in the basket. And as we're coming out of the store, they're coming in, he's coming in Caucasian kid with his family, and he uses a racist word, the n word. And then the family is, the parents, are like "No no no don't say that, don't say that." But looking at this, like, maybe they've had to heard that, the kid is too young to really, you know, saying the impact of the word, but he had to hear it from somebody which more than likely was his parents. So did experience little things like that. But outside of that, nothing too significant as a kid. I think it was because of my parents and their impact.

Absolutely, and do you feel like, um, obviously, you said like, there weren't necessarily there were those little moments, but there wasn't like that deep feeling of like having that experience, like, consistently, necessarily. But do you, do you feel like perhaps I know, you're talking about how your dad is like this very charismatic figure and like, never met a stranger. And do you feel like that played a role, you said that played a role in sort of, to you like that experience. But, do you also feel that, like, did they ever teach you like, some people have described to me sort of certain things their parents taught them about how to like walk through the world, basically, as a person of color. And, and so I'm just wondering if some of that also came in, even given you know, how charismatic your father was.

Actually, that part came from my mother. Because my mother's from Cincinnati, Ohio, which is a totally different type of atmosphere, demographic, especially where she grew up that. So for her moving to Danville, where she puts it was a culture shock for her. So she had to learn very fast, how to adapt in a smaller community where the African American population is a lot smaller than where she's from. So she had to learn that and she was the one that passed that on to us how to carry yourself in public, as an African American person. So that you wouldn't, you know, experience certain race related issues. So she, she is one that really, I guess, kind of informed and taught me and my siblings about that. My father, he just kind of it was just kind of like, you know, he didn't really express that to us. But she definitely did, she would teach us how to come in contact with somebody give a smile, you know, how to, you know, respond, to talk, interact with them, don't be as abrasive, don't, you know, watch out your facial features are, how your face is looking, the things of that such, so she, she taught us how to, you know, really, you know, interact as an African American or black child in the community towards, you know, Caucasian people.

Absolutely. So, you know, included in that, thinking about a little bit of, you know, our, you know, my perspective, especially as one like sort of history oriented, I'm thinking about both that day to day aspect and sort of that like lived experience, but then also connecting to something like the Black Lives Matter movement, thinking about sort of, like the history of race in the United States, for example, um, how would you, do you feel like, that connection was something that's become apparent to you, like, more recently, or if that's something you kind of grew up thinking about a little bit in terms of, like, being in class and like, being in a history class, and sort of understanding some of that, you know, long history of, of issues of civil rights, for example, in the United States?

Yea, well I would say it was, growing up, it was something that was presented to me, and at that time, I don't think I really fully grasped it, or really took that much interest in it too, you know, fully understand it, but as I got older, especially now, you know, it's really the forefront. So, but I've had, I've had family members who, who were really a part of, you know, a lot of the history, you know, that happened and a lot of you know, things that, the segregation and all of that stuff. And so my mom, she's, she's really I wouldn't say she's a history buff, but she's really into finding out the history of her family. So a lot of, my sister as well, she does a lot of that, you know, finding out history, who are our family was. So a lot of that information I had, but it became more I guess, prevalent, you know, now for me to, you know, really seek out and really looking through it, you know, because everything that's going on. So, I will say, I really didn't back then. I mean, although the information was there presented to me, I didn't really grasp it, or, you know, really cling on to it. But more so, you know, I know now, again, looking back now, I'm like a lot of what I was taught in school, I can remember being in college, and being in a history class, or just doing studying on my own, and looking at some information, like, that's not what they taught me in high school, middle school, you know, like, it was, it wasn't the true facts of what was on. So that that kind of changed my perspective about history and the plight of African Americans in this country, as well, it's more so in the later years, more grasped on to that history and seek it out.

Right, yeah, that completely makes sense. I had a similar experience, you know, going to college and being like, that's different than what I learned before, like, what's going on here? Um, and in terms of thinking about both the Black Lives Matter movement, and if you've been previously involved in anything else, sort of adjacent to that, to that, you know, the ultimate goals of that movement? Can you describe sort of how you have gotten involved? And, you know, recent, you know, obviously, this summer in particular, but also beyond that, you know, I'm if you were involved previously, with, I know, obviously, Black Lives Matter has been happening a lot longer than just this summer, for instance. So how would you describe sort of how you got involved?

I think I've always been vocal about the plight of blacks and African Americans, just because I'm a vocal person, you know, at times, but I never felt compelled or the push to really jump in and do what I can to make a difference until this year. And it's kind of like the earlier part of the year when, you know, the George George Floyd situation, Breanna Taylor situation. Because a lot of times, like, you know, the other situations that have been going on, you know, we'll be vocal on social media, like, Oh, my God, it's so awful and stuff, but it got to the point for me personally, where I was like, Okay, enough is enough, you know, something needs to be done, what can I do to help make a difference. And so, early part of the year, I kind of, you know, you start reaching out to certain people, and, and just getting involved, and a lot of times, it's really just getting out there. And then that's when you start making connections. So that's what I did. And so I started connecting with some people in Louisville, different groups in Louisville. Um, some people, some activists here in Lexington, Kentucky, ones who have just, you know, been doing activism for, you know, a long time just kind of connecting with those people. And then also, I don't know, if you're aware of the, the, the political race that was happening here in Kentucky with Charles Booker and Amy McGrath. So Charles Booker, he was running for the Senate seat, and they had the primaries back in the summer. And so prior to that, I reached out to some people that, because you know I did some research on him, and I really liked him, you know, really solid guy. So I reached out to some people on social media, I was able to connect with, like, you know, some of his campaign managers and, and eventually connect with him. So made a connection with him, and was trying to push his campaign as well. So that part of, because I felt like he was a good person to help further the movement of, you know, what was needed for black lives. And so did that and then, you know, just showing up in different places, like I said, I've spent a lot of time in Louisville, because I have family, friends and stuff, but you know, the movements there, especially with Breona Taylor, I really got connected with that, and with a lot of people through that, and just just behind the scenes doing things, you know, seeing how things work, you know, so did that. And also there has been some aspirations of political interest, you know, possibly going into politics. So, you know, talking to some people about that, but really just, you know, jumping in there and trying to do what I can. The person also, another thing almost I dont know if this really connects per se, but I started an initiative called Operation Vote October, and I got a Facebook group and that's the name of it. And the idea is to get as many people to vote by the end of October as possible. Of course, you know, the date is November the third but because everything is going on, you know, a lot of misinformation with mail in voting and all that. All these obstacles, I feel is very important that we try to vote, get as many people to vote as possible, and by the end of October. Because I think it's a very pivotal election. And also I connected with a guy who's from Lexington, he's an activist, and he called me. He said, I'm about to do something crazy. And so we had been talking, I was like you know, I got this going on. He's like, I got some stuff going on. So I connected with him. And he did it, last week he walked from, um, how much you familiar with Kentucky? He walked from Paducah or from Pikeville to Paducah. Yeah, so

Whew!

But he did so many miles per day, and I think he ended up doing like 325 miles, I think he walked like that and then on Facebook, where everybody would go walk, and they would post it to make up those other miles. So connected with him on that to push really push that initiative to get people to vote.

That's fantastic. You've been like, very involved. It's very exciting. And so thinking about, you know, obviously, politically, it's a huge moment, as well. As you've sort of described, you know, that, that the politics of the moment really matter to this movement. And thinking about that, and thinking about sort of, as we've described sort of this long history of, you know, the plight of African Americans in the United States. How do you feel like this moment, I know, this is hard to say, because we're living in it, um, how you feel like the moment almost like fits into this longer story of US History?

It's interesting to ask that because I was asked to speak at a rally in Danville. And what I talked about, is, I feel like this is a very, this, I feel like this movement, everything that's going right now will be in history books. I honestly believe that. I feel like this is probably one of the, especially in my lifetime, one of the most historical moments in American history, which activists use because, you know, you will know, we know, you know, the history of this country, so, but I feel like it's really because I feel like it's a revolution, and somebody had asked me that. It's like, do you feel like this is just a moment in time, do you feel like this is a revolution? And I honestly feel like that because I feel like people, we it's, it's, it's been more, and from my perspective, it's been more so the people on the ground that's really been making the noise and really been pushing, you know, this change. Of course, you have celebrities because we always look to celebrities, you know, for that voice, okay, if you can talk about it then it can get to everybody. And of course, there's been celebrities have done that. But my perspective I've seen, quote, unquote, regular people be the ones to step up. And I think that's what's needed. And I had a conversation with Charles Booker. And what I was telling him was, the reason people really grasped on to him, because I said, He's a regular person, this person, just, you know, not to minimize anything that he's done, but he's a regular guy, that you can have a conversation wit, been through, you know, things, understands what we go through as regular people, per se. And he's making an impact. So I feel like, the reason this is really a revolution is because it's your regular, everyday people who are stepping up and bringing about the change, and not just relying on, you know, celebrity people. Who, some of them do, but a lot of them they don't really understand, you know, everyday life, you know, what we as regular people might have experienced. So that's why I really, truly feel this is a revolution, and very historic. I feel like years from now, because this world is still standing that it would be it will be in the books I truly believe that.

Yeah, I mean, I, I agree. Um, so I think then my question to thinking about, you know, you've been involved in a lot of different ways. And so I'm wondering, thinking about your current involvement and your past involvement now with over the past, you know, several months and beyond. What are some moments that kind of stick out to you from your experiences thus far?

Probably the one. Well, there's a couple but real significant ones would be from some of the protests I have attended. I remember the first one I did, I think it was probably the first one in Louisville they had, first or second. They had an Louisville, you know, when the Breona Taylor situation really was huge. And I can remember going down there and just seeing people from all different walks of life. Different ethnic backgrounds, all of that. And we were all just marching in unity and solidarity. And it was so beautiful. You know, I was on Facebook live, peoples commenting and, and it was just it was such a beautiful moment. And then after about two hours, police showed up in riot gear. And it was just like a total different experience, something I've never experienced before. And so I can remember them being in the area standing along the the line of the street, and everybody kind of just kind of met them there. And it's, it's funny because I was with some friends. And my car was literally like right here, and people were starting to come up. I was like, I need to move my car like right now. So I jumped in my car, my Yo, Can y'all move. So I moved my car out of the way and came back. And as I came back, I heard this loud boom. And then I saw the smoke from the tear gas started to come our way. And that was from a different area. So like a line of riot police is here. And then over here was where some other ones was and they were shooting tear gas. And I can remember that feeling of that tear gas hidden and then just kind of having like, for a second you're kind of like delirious because you like, youre' coughing, can't see, can't breathe.

Yeah

So all of that was happening all at once. And it just kind of like, you know it's, everything got crazy, and the reason why that was something very memorable for me because I can remember the experience and the feeling of that unity of walking with everybody. And then that stark difference. And how you know, saying the riot police approached us, which we was all being peaceful, nothing was going on. And so that was probably a really very, a very memorable time for me. I've had some other experiences, you know, like protesting and just meeting up with people and having conversations but that was probably the most, probably the most memorable one for me just because I you know, how everything unfolded.

Yeah, absolutely.That is it is a really, I don't know how to describe it. Yeah, it's an extreme moment when, particularly with tear gas. It's just like panic. Um, and yeah, it's hard to forget. So I yeah, I completely agree. Thinking about sort of, I know, you mentioned you're pretty politically involved now. And like a part of all these really amazing initiatives and like, had spoken with Charles Booker, and thinking about sort of how you might want to be politically involved moving forward, what are to you, like the next steps? And like, what are the things that need to change that support sort of what we've all been protesting for, we've all been marching for? What are the, what are the big ticket items that you feel like we should be looking at?

For me, what, and this has always been my, my thinking throughout. I can, so the reason why I haven't attended a ton of protests, because I feel that, which I think protests are amazing. I think they work and all that. But unless we, and which I've said this from the get go, unless we transition to finding how to make policy changes, like, we'll be at a standstill, and we'll be where we was years ago. So my mentality has always been, how can we affect policy and changes so that we can you know you know what I'm saying, see true change and true difference. Because I feel like what happens with what, what has happened is that we'll protest certain things we'll be angry, and then it will be like a band aid would be put on it like, okay, you know, we'll we'll stop doing this. Or like, you know, we'll stop doing that. Like, with the No Knock Warrants, which I think is amazing that they stopped that in Louisville, but you still have police corruption. So how can we affect that? And the thing is, a lot of times I'll be at protests, and I can remember another incident. It was actually here in Lexington, a young man. He was a young African man. He was out there, and the police were standing there. And he was like, you know, he was really angry. He goes, I'm ready to die for this, like, so I was talking to him, I was like, you're, because he's, I mean, he's in the police's face. I was like, your fight is not with them. Because at the end of the day, they're just quote unquote, doing their job. But if you can somehow figure out how to get to their supervisors and get to their bosses, and the one that, who is above them, then you can start you know, seeing true change. So that's kind of been my mentality is how can I affect, how can we affect policy. And so that's kind of what I've been kind of behind the scenes trying to make connections to do that because I feel if we can get to that point. Then a lot of this, what's been happening, what's been going on, we can eliminate that.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Um, and thinking about connecting sort of the couple of topics we've talked about both, you know, being involved because, you know, Black Lives Matter movement. It's politically involved, but it's a human rights movement, fundamentally, right? And so I think the question I have for you is how you feel like maybe your belief system has played a role in your your involvement, if it has at all? And how that, how that has occurred, if you feel like they do sort of have a connecting point?

It does, because like you said, it's a humanity thing, at the end of the day we're humans, and if you know anything about Jesus, about Christianity or about faith, any belief system it's I mean, it always talks about what you do for the least of beings. And so that is why it's baffles me so much that you will have a lot of Christian so called Christian faith leaders who aren't pushing the idea of Black Lives Matter. You know, now I know a lot of people have issues with the, I guess organization. But the ideal, or the idea, or just the phrase, remove the organization away from it, the phrase Black Lives Matter, should not bother anybody. It is funny, because their response is always all lives matter. Well, if all lives matter, that means Black Lives Matter, right? Like I mean, it, it baffles me, but as a Christian, or as someone of faith, you should have no problem backing that an idea of Black Lives Matter, because especially Christianity, Jesus always went towards the poor and those that were in need. And there's a, there's a, there's a story in the Bible that talks about a sheep straying away from the flock. And it talks about how the shepherd leaves the 99 and goes after that one lost sheep, and brings him back to the fold. And it's interesting, because he, as the story unfolds, he leaves all the 99 because at that point, they're safe, you know what I'm saying, they're where they need to be, he's gonna watch over them, he may have some other shepherds who would help him to watch over them. But that other sheep is lost and is away from them. So therefore, they're in danger. So as a shepherd, he realizes that, he goes after that one lost sheep, because for one thing he's, he's not only is he in danger, but he's not in the safety with everybody else. So as this movement of Black Lives Matter, all we're saying is, right now we're the lost sheep, we need you all to come, help us, save us, bring us back with everybody else. And when we do, that, we can all seen as a great choir All Lives Matter. Because at that point, we will see that all lives matter. Because right now, that's not what we're seeing. All we want to do, if you want us to say all lives matter, shows that black lives matter. And then we can be in unity, and solidarity and say that all lives do matter.

Yeah, I agree. I think that's really powerful to think about it from that perspective. And so I think you sort of have described that they do, like have a direct connection, you know, thinking about both, like, being a Christian and spiritual practice, and and being part of BLM that they should be directly connected. How would you, how do you approach sort of, perhaps individuals whofall on the other side and perhaps use particularly Christian faith as part of their argument? For, for instance, all lives matter? How do you like communicate with those individuals?

I was going to say, because I had a conversation about this not that long ago. I'm always, I've always been the type of person that, I'm intrigued about how people think, and why they think the way they think. So I, I seldom do I dismiss people, just based off, you know, they mean different than me or think different than me. So I always try to have conversations to see why you feel the way you do. So my approach is always to try to see, understand, not to change my views, because clearly if you think that way you're not changing my outlook on it, but to see why they think that way. And oftentimes what I find is when you do that, and you have those conversations, it makes them realize their thinking is probably not right and, and something to go along with that. When all this was going down, you know, back in March, whatever. I did a Facebook Live about the George Ford situation. I can't remember exactly when it wa, this year has flown by, but it seems like it's been really long. But I did a Facebook Live and I had some people on there, I was just kind of just talking, it was just, I was just really just talking to get my thoughts out kind of more of a therapeutic thing for me. And a guy that I worked with, in my job he's a Caucasian guy. He called me either that next day or sometime soon after that, and he was talking to me, he was like, you know, I was watching your Facebook Live. And he's like, No, I was kind of in tears. He said, because the way I grew up, was, like, how people that treat you that way was like that, you know, he grew up in a prejudiced home, you know, things of that such. And he said, not, and he's a great guy, he's never shown me anything, you know, as a way of signaling towards me. But he said, it made him really think about, you know, how he looks at, you know, certain things and certain issues. And also, it really made him reflect on how he's bringing up his kids, that he has like a son, a young son and a daughter. And he was like, after watching that, and hearing how you all have to deal with certain things in life, you know what I'm saying, he said, it compelled me to make sure that my kids aren't growing up with that type of mentality. So that's my approach, my approach is to have those conversations. Now, if it gets to the point to where they're like, just being, because I've done that, I went to DC to the March that Al Sharpen did a couple months ago, in August. And we the night before we went out to get some thing to eat, and it was real late, and this guy was out there, he began talking, he's like you know, up here, it was our conversation we got on the whole, you know, on social injustice thing, he was just starting to say like things where he was being sarcastic and just kind of making light of it. And at that point, I was so out of the conversation. Because at that point, you know, I'll move on and dismiss it, but I always seek to have those conversations with them. And I've found that when I do, sometimes it changes a lot of their, that thought process.

Yeah, absolutely. And thinking about, you know, this probabl may be personal rather than literal, but do you feel like you have incorporated practices from your belief system into like, your experiences and action in BLM? So, like, do you find that like daily prayer has, like, sometimes involved some of that for you? Or like, maybe your church community has been like involved sort of with this particular moment? Or How would you describe some of that?... Yes, I did it in a confusing way. So just how parts of your belief system how parts of like being part of the church and your personal practices as as a Christian, how those have, maybe in some instances, interacted with your involvement in BLM.

My church, especially different members, like my cousin, Melinda Weathers, who she attended Centre College, she's been very, very involved in Danville. I mean, she's been huge, you know what I'm saying, getting into certain initiatives, talking to leaders of the community, you know, being a part of rallies, sponsoring rallies. Um, so she's been a part of the different people in my church that have been just like me, you know, personally, you know, what I do. What I will say to this question, kind of to attack it in a different way. My faith and going to church has been my, I won't say saving grace, but it's kind of been like that thing that has that keeps me sane. And I don't know if I really want to use sane it's not like I'm about to go crazy or nothing like that. Although it is a crazy situation going on. But it's kind of been like that, that that thing that keeps me grounded. You know, say throughout the week, I'll be going to protests, doing different interviews on top of doing my regular you know, day to day job. It can kind of, get kind of hectic, and so like just being a part of that big community going to church on Sunday. It kind of like I guess gives you that boost that calming presence to you know, kind of go back out and you know, do what you got to do. So, I will say how that that that would be that connection there between those two because I mean, it can get crazy unless you have it and I'll churches always kind of been that for me. My faith just always kind of did that for me. Really definitely now.

Absolutely. So for you, and just to like, repeat back, so I know that I'm understanding, it's almost more of like a grounding practice, you know, as a way to like, then when you leave that experience, you're more prepared to handle sort of everything that's happening right now.

It's outside church as well, it's not just, I don't want it to seem like it's just that experience at church, I mean it's, I carry it throughout each day, or at least I try to, and that helps as well.

Absolutely. And I know, obviously, Kentucky is like very much the Bible Belt. So for you, this might be a little different. But thinking about how you've navigated being both, you know, it in the African American community and in the Christian community, have, you had to navigate those identities, like, working with people who are part of BLM, so like, working sort of on the politics and policy ends of things or like interacting with people who you might be talking to whether that's at a protest, or whether that's online? Have, you had to like, sort of, like some people perhaps aren't, aren't Christian or aren't part of any faith or may be agnostic or atheist have, you had to, like, find ways to interact with those people, given those identities that you have, that you, you know, are part of who you are?

This goes back to my upbringing. Like I said, my parents, especially my dad, he was able to interact with anybody you what I mean. So I grew up seeing that and being a charismatic person, myself, outgoing, myself somewhat, I've always been able to, you know, interact with different types of people, you know. So I think now, it was never, especially now like, you know, the different things I attend like protests and things like that such, its never been a thought, in my mind, like, to approach people that are different than me, like, okay, they're different, so I'm approaching this way. Now, consciously, you know, you interactions with certain people will be different than others. But as that was never in my mind, so my interaction has always been just like, you know, it's like a regular interaction, you know, I mean, now, and there are people with very stark differences. And it's funny, because I've connected with some people who are like, yeah, you have extremes, one extreme to the next. Like, they are that extreme from me. And those have been some of the most greatest connections I've ever had. And that's, that's very interesting to me to be able to really connect with someone like that, who is so different from me and form that bond with them, I think is really great. So yeah, I've had to do that. And it's, it's, it's worked out great. I feel I've built some really strong connections with people, that are totally different for me, because, you know, I approach them just like, you know, not with the mentality, okay, I'm a Christian, I'm this, I'm that, so let me see, you know, treat them different are how am I going to treat them? No, no, just, I'm saying if you express love to someone genuinely express love then your interactions, it will be it will be normal, I think things will work out fine. I haven't had any crazy experiences where I've had something crazy went on just because somebody is different. It's been great experiences and connections.

I'm glad. So thinking about sort of like what your ultimate goals or desires are in both of these categories, and how they might align. So your ultimate goals and desires for Black Lives Matter? What would those be in your opinion?

For Black Lives Matter, it would be that everybody, and I say this in accross the board. And I don't know that it's necessarily my goal for Black Lives Matter. But my goal across the board is that everybody would have the comfortability of seeking after whatever they want to do in life without any type of barriers, I guess you could say. That everybody will have that empowerment, that they can go after whatever they want to in life and not have that barrier. And if everybody would have the mentality of not trying to stop somebody from doing what they want to do then I think that empowerment would be amazing because you just think, like I when I worked at the Children's Home for three years, I worked there six years. For three years, I was just like a regular, you know, staff counselor, and then the last few years I was a supervisor. So I would hold groups with my kids there, and we were just you just lifegroups, you know, talking about certain things. And this is kind of time around, I think when Barack Obama became president or was president. And so, you know, I had different, you know, African American, Latino, you know, Caucasian kids all different walks of life. But I mean, of course, a lot of them came from, you know, some, some extreme background. So I remember having a conversation with them, like, do you realize you could be anything in life? And I could see a lot of their faces looking at me like, Mr. Kenny, what are you talking about? Like you can really be anything, put your mind to it, you can be anything you want to in life. So I feel if everybody would have that realization, and that understanding that empowerment. Without those barriers, I think that's the type of world we all want not just for Black Lives Matter but for everybody. But because you know, this is the Black Lives Matter movement going on, that would be my goal is that we could have that type of empowerment. That's personally that would be my goal.

Yeah, absolutely. And then thinking about like, your faith, but what are your sort of on the same way, like, what would be your ultimate, what are your sort of ultimate goals or desires and practicing your faith and what you ultimately hope for, to come out of that for yourself?

Just me personally, it's just everyday, you know, being a reflection of Christ, in every walk of life, which I think is that that is a journey, you know, a lifelong journey and process. But on top of that, is that, as I do that, I reflect Christ. And that, somebody else can see that, who maybe doesn't have any faith or belief in Christ, that they can see that and seek after that, and want that as well. And I think because I think a lot of people, they in the back of their mind it's like that consciousness of, there's a higher power, there's something else. And a lot of times people go through life, especially now, you know, with everything going on, and they kind of lose hope. And I feel that Christ gives us that hope. You know, I'm saying, despite what we're facing, that there's still that hope. And if people can understand that and cling on to that, it makes life a lot easier. So for me, personally, my walk with Christ, my faith to get stronger. But as a reflection, or as a, I guess you'd say important to other people, is that they will be able to have that hope and that peace, as well.

Wonderful. Okay. And now I'm going to ask you, sort of the thing that I you know, we always ask at the at the end, which is, is there anything else that you want to say? Or cover that maybe I didn't ask?

It's funny because you asked questions that I've been recently asked in a different way. And it just makes me think about, I was I did a, I was in Louisville, downtown, six people got arrested. So we're sitting outside of jail, waiting. So there's some news cameras, and they came up to us and you know, they ask, is it ok if we ask some questions? And we're like yeah, no problem. And so at the end, they asked that exact question, is there anything that we didn't cover that you think is important? And my response was that I feel the way... because social media has, and the news has kind of like, trained us to think a certain way, andnot to look at it as in what reality is. So my conversation with them was that I feel the way people like me are portrayed on the news and social media is totally wrong. And I feel like if people would take the opportunity to interact with people that are not just, you know, me as a black person, African American, but somebody that's not like you, if you would take the time to have that interaction with them, you can see them in a totally different light. And to try to say this real quickly. I was watching about the guy that was over the KKK, or he was Grandmaster, something like that? And a guy, a black or a person of color, had an interview with him. And through the interview, they formed this bond. And it made that Grand Wizard realize that the reason he didn't like people not like him or African American people or black people, is because how he'd been trained and taught. But once he had that interaction with them, it changed his whole perspective about it. So I think that will be my last parting words is try to have that interaction with people that are not like you, you can better understand them. And you will probably realize the thought processes about this problem, are very wrong.

Absolutely well thank you. Thank you so much. This was wonderful. This is, you were the easiest person to interview. And I just, this is such a like valuable contribution to all the all the work my fellow peers and I are doing and then to the archive and all of that. So thank you so much. I appreciate it. All right, well here I'll pause the recording.