Tricia Sturm Interview, October 18, 2020
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Perfect. So, today is October 18th, 2020 and this is Shae Corey interviewing Tricia Sturm on Their Story. And just before we start, just to clarify, do I have your permission to record this interview? Yeah, but you know, you'd be using audio not video, correct? Well, it is a video recording. So, if you don't want to be--have your, have your face on it, I think you have to turn off your camera. You want me to do that, is that okay? Or yeah, you know, I just have been working out today and I haven't brushed my hair and all that stuff. But if it messes you up. I mean if it's going to... No! That's totally okay. Okay. That's totally okay. Okay. Okay. So why don't you just start out and tell me a little bit about yourself? I'm a 61-year-old mother of two 20-year olds. I am an educator, live in the suburbs have lived in the city. After--I guess I lived in Philadelphia, Washington DC and Baltimore for about 20 years and then I've lived in the suburbs for about 20 years. Yeah, that's kind of me in a nutshell. Great, so did you grow up in those areas or did you grow up somewhere else? I grew up in Suburban, Philadelphia. And what was that like? It was a pretty typical 1960s, 70s suburban upbringing, you know, it was exclusively a white community. My father was in sales. Commuted from the suburb into the city for his job. My mother was an at home mom until we got into middle school and then she started working part-time. She was a nurse, very intelligent, very well-educated, very much a feminist and you know an early feminist. Yeah, but you know pretty typical Suburban upbringing. Yeah, so was your mom involved in any type of like feminist activist movements or when you say she's a feminist, what do you mean by that? She well, okay. So, she was well-educated, went to an Ivy League College in the late 40s early 50s. So, kind of went to a liberal college when a lot of women weren't even going to college then. She kind of resisted the stereotypes of PTA mom things like that. You know like she was a Democrat and embraced. I don't want to say embrace the Civil Rights Movement, but she you know was a very early supporter of Emily's List she was a proponent of the Equal Rights Amendment. When I was in high school she put an Equal Rights for Everyone bumper sticker on my bike. Went to marches was very much pro-choice from the perspective of...one has a choice to have or not have an abortion I think because she was a--you know, she went to Penn it was an inner city Ivy League school, but in a very predominantly black neighborhoods, surrounding neighborhood. I think she's saw like she talked about Saturday night things. Things that would be the...I guess what where am I going with this? Like when she had to work in the ER Saturday night people come in, came in with cuts. She knew there were women having babies who had too many babies and didn't want to have them probably, you know, I don't remember her talking about it, but probably saw the dark side of back alley abortions. The you know, infections, sterility from it--even death. So, I think that was probably driving some of her political position. Yeah, so I think that politics were discussed in my household growing up. I just had this conversation recently with someone. My father was a Republican. My mother was a Democrat. There were discussions at the table. We talked politics. I would think now if you looked at me, I have friends who will describe themselves as fiscally conservative socially moderate. That would probably be my father. And you know, it was a different time people could have thoughtful, intelligent, educated discussions about politics, you know up until the late 90s really. That does not happen, you know, unfortunately for your generation you will you haven't been able to experience that and I hope, I hope tides change where it won't be as polarizing as it is now. So yeah, that's a bit about my mom. Yeah, that's really interesting. So, having those political discussions and having your mom be so committed to kind of the feminist/ feminism of that time. How do you think that that influenced you growing up as a woman? How did that environment contribute to who you are today? Okay, don't misunderstand me. She was not I mean she would read she would voice her opinion in the household. She would use her money to support candidates she felt strongly about but, she was not you know protesting in front of the Baptist Church. She was more getting in a car and driving to DC. You know what I mean? Yes, and again that was not happening when I was a child that was happening in my college years and beyond because she had less responsibilities at home and she could do that stuff. How did it influence my you know, one of the main, I guess one of the most impactful ways that I think her and my father's views impacted me and my sisters is that we were raised to understand that we could do and be anything we wanted. And, you know, it was different then because women... like through my college years, and my really, you know through all of my career until I got into working in schools. There was a lot of sexism in the workplace. There was sexism on college campuses. I mean, I've talked to my daughter about this and it may or may not shock you but you know, I had more than one professor proposition me inappropriately in his office and it was kind of understood like, "Yeah, he's an asshole," you know, don't you know, "Don't meet that Professor for coffee. He's not being you know, he's an asshole stay away from him," as opposed to you know, like I think your generation where they'd be like, okay. This is a human resources case and I am going to have him written up. You know that it just. It's not what you did. It wouldn't, I guess be taken seriously perhaps so, you know, I bring that up because I think we were also raised in an understanding that you need to watch out for those people and you need to play your cards right, and you have cards you can play. There was an expression that a friend of mine a friend of mines brother said. Which you're going to find like incredibly derogatory, but it was to his sister. "You have the three B's. Make them work for you." Just like the three B's and it was like blonde, boobs and brains. So, play those cards. You know, play the play the blonde and the boobs and the butt. Play them smartly, which you know, you could kind of. I mean there were people who would say, "Oh that's so unethical," but there were also women who would say, "I can handle, let me handle this meeting. I know how to handle that guy." A whole, you know, it's just a whole very different world. And she I think she grew up in that and I grew up but she was she worked in hospitals. She was a nurse and she saw incredible sexism and patronizing behavior from doctors and hospitals, you know, so empowering us to not be taken advantage of but to use your power if that makes any sense. So, how do you think--I know you said you're an educator. So how do you think that you took those lessons into your career as an educator? Professionally education is a very, there was very little when you're a classroom teacher I guess when you get into administration, it might be different, but it is a field that is totally dominated by women. So that sexism that you would see in an office is very different than what's happening in a school. The way you know in schools you just, you just knew because it was a woman dominated field that we were absolutely underpaid. You know, if primarily men, if men were primarily teachers than the income for teachers probably would have been 50 percent higher. I mean, there's still the wage gap 30 years ago is was much greater than it is now, but there still is a wage gap. So, the way I think I brought those things into teaching were more--and I primarily taught 8th grade and now High School--empowering young women, letting them know they are smart calling them out for not for dumbing themselves down. Obviously not in front of the classroom but pulling smart girls aside and saying, “You knew the answer to that. Why are you giggling at that boy? You know you're better than that.” I mean that's a really harsh example. And of course, there's nuance with every you know in various situations, but you know something I really paid attention to and there's literature about this. There's I mean it's documented. Boys are called on more than girls are so I was really conscious of letting them, let the women speak. The young, you know, young women in my class speak and giving them leadership roles if I could. But it was hard because there is a bias and boys were louder. It was really…it was a balancing act and I think that on my best day, I was balancing it. Well on my worst day, I was probably letting the boys dominate. If you were to talk to some of my eighth graders and not you know from 1995. They may say I was really favoring the boys and their perception would be the reality, you know. So, I think that, I think that answers your question how I brought it into it might have my job as a teacher. So what initially made you want to be a teacher? Teaching is a second career for me. Okay, my I was in a field that was. I did video production. I was a writer producer. I did video production. It is a field that has long hours. Lots of early hours. Lots of late-night editing sessions and was not conducive to raising a family. So, I made a conscious decision to get out of that field was fortunately in a position where I could take a year off and go to grad school and start a second career. So, I did that. I guess I did, I did video production for like about 12 or 13 years and then I went to a one-year graduate, took a one-year graduate program and went into teaching. So, the decision was I always liked kids. I wanted to make an impact and it was much more conducive to being married and having children. Yeah, and when did you have your first child? You mean how old was I or? Okay, Natalie was born in 98 and I was 38. Okay. And what was that experience like for you? Oh, yeah, it was you know, it was it was wonderful. It was wonderful. I was ready for it. I probably you know, when you're 38, you're having your first kid and you've been working and kind of an organized person. A kind of driven person. I approached it in my friends and I have laughed about this since we raised our kids but you know. When you had your kids in your late 30s you approached it kind of like another job. I'm going to read every book. I'm going to interview like every doctor I'm going to--God I think I had like seven interviews with pediatricians and frankly, you know looking back on it all, they all would have been great. You know, I live in suburban Baltimore the best hospitals, you know, some of the best hospitals in the world. Johns Hopkins is here. It would have, I would have been hard-pressed to find a bad pediatrician, you know, but it was kind of like you know that uber focus on I'm going to do everything right. I'm going to read every book. I'm going to eat healthy. I'm going to um, have the perfect child, you know that I shouldn't say perfect child, but you know approached it, with joy and determination to do it, right. I had a birth plan. I wanted natural childbirth. Yeah, and it was it was, a lovely experience, I loved being pregnant. My birth plan was completely shot to hell and I was so pissed at my doctor after the birth but having a happy healthy baby out of it. What, what happened or did it just not go the way you anticipated or? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, um, you know there was a series of events. Natalie was late. So, okay. So: brand new mother wants natural childbirth. Baby is now like eight days after her due date and my doctors like, “I want to induce you we're going to have this baby. It's time to have this baby,” and I'm like, “Yeah, no.” Women have been having babies for millennium. I can do this. She's just not ready to come out. And so, I think that I irritated my doctor and then when I went into labor. No, my water broke, but I didn't go into labor. So, I'm like, okay, this is you know normal natural stuff. And then my doctor didn't come to the hospital. Her partner who I'd never met before was there and was like, "Oh Beth can't come I'm going to deliver your baby," and I'm like, "I don't like you," you know, it was it was a man. I'd never met him, he wasn't following my birth plan and you know gave me drugs that I didn't want made me feel guilty about like, you know, so he was an ass. Consequently, the second baby, my son, was born in a birth center with a midwife and a doula. So yeah, that was it. Yeah. My mom was a midwife. So, she would be completely on board with the with the birthing center. She that's what she always tells me to do. What if, if I have kids in the future. But yeah, that's interesting. I'm so sorry that your doctor just was awful. But did you have a lot of help with your children when they were growing up or not so much. What do you mean help? Like, did you have help from your community or your family in raising the kids? Like normal, you know I had, my immediate family does not it lives about two hours from Baltimore. My ex-husband's family is right here. Lot of very supportive girlfriends. Was in a position where we could hire babysitter's of like, you know, not on a regular basis, but like I didn't have a nanny in the house or an au pair, but you know if we wanted--We probably had sitters, let's say regularly. So, from a financial perspective we could do that. Had, you know, made new good friends through the children. So, we'd have playgroups and mommy and me time and so, normal. So, I think I got enough support. I mean, I didn't feel like me, sometimes I felt trapped in the house, but that was more of the dynamic between myself and my ex-husband it wasn't about my community and my support system. What do you wish you would have known before you became a mother? How hard it is. I mean, I don't think anybody prepares you for how emotionally, physically, and spiritually challenging it is. I mean when you have a child you are all of a sudden responsible for the welfare and well-being of a small helpless human who, and it is your responsibility to ensure that this little human becomes a happy healthy contributing member of society. That's a huge responsibility. And I don't think you know, no matter how many books you read. No matter like who you talk to until you really wrap your head around it and you're in it, you know how hard it is. And I was blessed with typical, happy healthy children. I currently am working with children who are neurodiverse. Do you know what that means? Is that just a different level of ability or like mental ability? Yeah. Yes. Yeah. That's a good way to look at it. My children were neurotypical. I would suspect you're neurotypical. I think the term was probably coined in the early 90s when educational researchers had the ability to do brain scans and things like that and see that the brain processes information differently for some people. Down's syndrome, dyslexia, dyslexia, dyscalculia, Autism Asperger's Tourette's those are all neurodiverse conditions. So, I'm currently working with neurodiverse high school students right now. And I look at the challenges these parents have which are a thousand times greater than any of the challenges I had and I still you know, as I said by minutes ago, it was the hardest thing that I've ever done. I'm so fortunate that my kids are pretty typical. It's really, really hard and it takes you know, it takes that Hillary Clinton. I think might have coined the term. It takes a village. It takes a village and I had a pretty good village. Yeah, that's great. How do you think that becoming a mother changed you as an individual? Immediately you become selfless. A much less selfish person. Immediately you need to become a mediator. You, for one's own like mental well-being have to try to minimize as much stress as possible that concept of like, don't sweat the small stuff and it's all small stuff. Took me a really long time to learn. So, when I could do that, I was much happier. So, and just you know that it made me more cautious. I remember, Natalie was probably only, is probably like six months old and it was just so freaking clear in my mind. I was mountain bike riding with that and she was home with a sitter or something. I don't know where she was, but she was not on the back of a mountain bike at six months old, but I was going down this pretty steep trail and they were like, oh from like golf ball to like maybe you know, like softball sized rocks on it. I'm going down the trail and I had this like revelation like "Holy shit. This is dangerous!" If I get hurt like we're screwed like as a family, like who's going to take care of, you know, like if I break my leg right now, we're screwed for a while. So, this and it was this like epiphany at the time. So, from that perspective, I became more cautious. I mean I miss and now I'm skiing again. I'm hiking again. I mean I used to race sailboats you just like look at some choices and you just have to say it's not worth it. Like you know, or just juggling my whole life for a day of a sailboat race is just not worth all the effort it requires for how much fun I'm going to get out of it. So, change that was a change as well. So, I guess became more cautious and less adventurous. So what was your favorite part and still is your favorite part about being a mom? It really, my favorite part of being a mom is like the happy laughter, Aha moments with my children. Even like, when they were like one to three years old and they would discover things—so, like it's at some point when a kid is between like I don't even remember anymore, but let's say somewhere between like two months and six months and they just discover over their hands. Like all of a sudden it's like, you know, you see them and they're like they when they realized that their hands are their hands. And it's just such an amazing moment. And then like, you know it one years old when they're like, oh hold on, like I can walk and then when they're discovering language and that, you know the first time they tell you a joke or they say something that's funny and learn to ride a bike or come home from school with like an idea of something they heard or learned and like even now my kids are my son will be is almost 21. My daughter's 22. Just discussions about politics and music and books and relationships with friends. And you know, just those happy moments. I guess where we're bonding. That's the best thing about parenting. So I know you mentioned politics,or talking about politics with your children. Are they pretty politically active would you say? Yes, and it's a relative term compared to young people who say oh, I'm not even registered to vote. Absolutely. You know what really on the I would say on the spectrum, you know, if zero is like I'm not going to bother to vote never have and a hundred is I'm running for city council. My kids are probably you know, 60 to 75, does that make sense? Mhm, that makes sense. You know they both volunteered for campaigns. They both pay attention they both are reading, and question. So yeah, that's great. So in thinking about kind of this summer, did you guys, did you have a lot of conversations with your children about everything that happened over the summer? Yes. Yeah. Yeah, my son was very active in the protest movement and my daughter was somewhat. My daughter's activity level was more and more involved reading more involved, you know discovering. I guess discovering more about our white privilege, her white privilege racism in our country and ways to...Her focus is an awareness. I guess more developing an awareness and she's pretty where I mean. She was probably more so going into this just because she went has lived in a predominantly not predominantly black but in an in an urban environment and went to a college that was in a predominantly black neighborhood. So probably much more aware of racial tension, racial bias, racial misconceptions than somebody who say I don't know where you know, like somebody who went to James Madison, you know what I mean? Like so and then Max is like I said Max is very active, like he's like delivering food to homeless not homeless, but public housing. He's, he's very active to the point where you know, he concerns me. Yeah, and so did you attend any of the protests over the summer? You know, this is, I attended one protest. I had foot surgery and could not walk for all of June and half of July. So yeah, I went to one and you know, I have to tell you it was a really hard decision because I was very concerned about spreading, the spreading of COVID. And some of my friends chose not to attend marches and that was the rationale. They did not feel safe. And like part of me is like wonders, was that an excuse or was it legitimate? Now I have a couple friends who have attended I got a couple of friends who have attended marches with me. One you know, like one we're going back like 20 years. She and I had gone to numerous marches in DC and she legitimately was like can't do it. I'm 65 years old and COVID was too dangerous. I did actually ask a friend of mine who I thought may have gone to the march if she would be willing to do an interview and she said she didn't go because COVID and actually interestingly enough, her husband said why aren't you interviewing fathers? This is this isn't fair, you know, like why just the mothers? I said I don't know what her thesis is so yeah. Yeah, I would have, in a non-COVID environment, I would have gone to many more I think and had I been able to actually walk like I was like literally on a knee scooter for a month and a half, you know, have you ever seen anybody on one of those things? I could not walk. So, what I did instead was I was making donations, you know, it's old person prerogative. You know, I'm not going to go March, but I will make donations and I was reading and I was trying to support black businesses and I was doing different things like that. So yeah, what was the...oh, go ahead. No, good. Go ahead now. I'm done. I was just going to ask you what the protest was like that you've attended and how many people were there, that kind of thing. It was a protest it was in Baltimore. It was led by it was a, it was a student-led protests, which I thought was very cool. So, it was led by a group of people who I guess were high school students, black high school students. A lot of young people there and then it seemed to merge with another march so it started out and it felt like I don't know a couple thousand people and then by the end it just kept growing. And there were you know, I can't remember the numbers but like news I think it was saying there were like 10,000 people there and it was you know, when you were on a city street in Baltimore, I always like to try to like jump up on like a planter or something and see how far I can see and it was blocks and blocks long. And then it led and got to city hall and then merged with another one and ended up like they had closed a major on ramp to an interstate and we marched up the interstate and passed the prison and we're like shouting to the people in the prison who were like you could see faces or arms like waving out of little tiny windows. It was pretty wild and it was very cool. I mean it was young people was old people it was black people. It was white people. It was people with fun and funny signs. It was very civilized. It was very...you know there was there was a sense of urgency but also a sense of camaraderie. I giggled, I laughed when I texted one of my friends who's gone to marches with me and I'm like, "Sue! They had snacks!" I've never! They had hand sanitizer and snacks. I've never been to a march where they were like handing out granola bars. You know, this is somebody who like we've done all the woman's marches. And then we did in like what the heck? I guess we are marching. I can't remember even it was it was probably like a Roe versus Wade like during the, you know pre Obama administration it had to have been an issue regarding Roe versus Wade and then I remember going with her to AIDS rallies and take back the night rally take back the which is basically abuse against you know, violence against women is what Take Back The Night’s focus was in the late 80s. And I just I had to laugh. And I'm like "Sue, they got it together. Now these young people know what's going on, snacks here!" And yeah, yeah, so that was kind of cool because it was like, okay my generation, excuse my language like fucked everything up. It's time to pass the baton and you guys got to fix it. Yeah, well, at least we can fix it with snacks in our hands! But like I really appreciate that there was conviction and there was an and I like the continued effort to make changes like here in my little community of you know, Baltimore County. They just passed a no-chokehold policing policy and now it got watered down a little bit. But without these protests that never would have happened and you know when I hear issues or discussions at communities where they're really looking at changing who reports to calls of drug abuse, mental illness, domestic violence sending people with different training and potentially Social Work background as opposed to like the police force. I mean, that's making progress. Until Donald Trump leaves office real progress is not going to happen. Yeah, speaking of the police were they at the protest at all? Yeah, we saw them. Yeah, we saw them on the sidelines like we saw him on the sidelines and, so I need to frame this with Baltimore got incredibly bad press four years ago, maybe now. With the Freddie Gray murder death in police custody and some writing that was happening in Baltimore at the time. Media blew that way out of proportion. It was not nearly as you know, being one who was involved more at the time the level of disruption, fire, vandalism was way blown out of proportion by the media. I mean, if you know friends who lived in other cities were like, holy crap Baltimore's on fire and I'm like, you know what it's one neighborhood that has had a small fire and it was actually a bunch of high school kids just like yeah, they were pissed and they were and they were pissed and they were burning off, you know negative energy. So, given that situation. I think the police force in Baltimore was stepping back. So yeah, they were watching and they were engaging and discussion when need be, yeah. So, they're yeah the police were not there weren't issues not like my daughter encountered in Philadelphia where like people like her were getting tear-gassed, you know, we didn't have those issues. So, her protest ended differently than yours, I'm assuming. Yeah. Yeah and what we've seen the news some things in Portland and in Chicago and some other cities the police were far, far, in my opinion far too aggressive. Yeah, so it wasn't ugly. It was a little I mean at one point. I mean no, it wasn't ugly. I got to tell you when I was at the first women's march in DC. I was like there was one point where I was a little scared. I was not scared at this one. Do you think that the portrayal of the majority of protests in the media was fair or unfair from your experience? It depends on which media you were looking at. That's a valid point. Based on my experience, was that in the beginning of these protests there was, I think an understanding that maybe it did blow some of the stuff out of proportion in the past. So, I think in the beginning there was a conscious effort to report the peaceful protest and there were no convers--confrontations and there was you know, you know very minimal looting and stuff like that. I think they were reporting messages in the beginning like interviews with say a black woman, mother, son. Whatever saying is it, is violence justified is looting justified? No, but they are so angry there is so much anger that it may be necessary to get people's attention those kinds of--I didn't state that well because it's not a justification but it is an understanding that white people need to know like if and I get teary-eyed when I think of this kind of stuff but like if the police were shooting my white son and his white friends. I would be so pissed and I would want to burn down the police precinct too you know, and this is what white people don't get. That visceral, “They killed my son.” That visceral, “My 18-year-old boy was walking down the street in a hoodie with Skittles and somebody shot him.” You know, that's just. And I can't understand how a mother or a grandmother or a father of a child and it doesn't matter what color they are can't empathize with that, unless you know you're sitting in your, you know, protected Community with your white privilege, and you've never had to think about it. And frankly that's you know that I don't know. I'm I don't know. I'm not, I can't, I can't judge. I can't say what's going on in other people's minds. So, I don't know if I answered your question. I don't remember it anymore. Yes, you did. So, in kind of thinking about that and empathizing with other people and thinking about just kind of the larger world as it is today specifically America. What changes would you make if you could, to the world the nation. Just what do you wish was different? An even playing field. Every child is entitled to an equal education, every man, woman who wants to go to college should be able to do that every person who wants to work in a specific field if they have the capability and the skills should be able to do that. So, I think what everybody should have... every elderly person should have dignity in the way they are treated in terms of their ability to get medical care, enough food, appropriate housing, transportation. And there's just so much that racism and white privilege and oppression have done in the past like, you know 300 years but even continued in the last 50 years that have made it so people of color can't live the same quality of life get the same quality of education, healthcare that kids who look like my children get. And frankly, you know if we just would just get it together and provide education, proper nutrition to children and when we lift up one we lift up all. You know that sense of, you know taking care of everybody is going to ultimately benefit society. When I look at, this means like one of the things that makes me so angry about the current administration's immigration policy. This country has benefited from the drive, knowledge, experience, intelligence of our immigrants and the cultural diversity that comes with them. That is what made, I mean really if you-- immigration is what made the greatest generation the greatest generation. If people could just like, you know appreciate what everybody can do and stop looking at the differences. So, I you know, one of the things that I say a lot now is "You do you I'm going to do me," you know, like you do you I'm not going to judge. I'm not going to like… I'm not going to try to change. You, it's the saying, you know, when you look at LGBTQ issues, like everybody should be able to love whoever they want. Like if somebody doesn't want somebody, if somebody thinks being a homosexual is like an abomination then don't be gay! It's like nobody's making you be gay. Just you do you and don't worry about the other people. So just like everybody freaking get along! You know? Mhm. Do you have any fears for your children in the world as it is today or in our current situation with COVID and everything going on? You know in the immediate, um yeah, I worry that they're going to get sick from COVID but in the overall, I mean that's like a blip in the overall scheme of things. It's just like a little blip on the radar of their life. This is all going to be over in two years, you know, like really it's going to be behind us. I mean, there's going to be economic impact for sure but from a health perspective that's not an issue and hopefully will freaking, hopefully our government leaders will look at enabling the NIH and medical professionals to come up with a protocol and a plan so that this doesn't freaking happen. Again. My biggest concern for both of them is related to climate change. I think that life is going to be more difficult. Like I think really their generation is going to be looking at food costs escalating. Water issues: clean water and availability of water are going to be huge issues. How their generation is going to deal with famine, lack of water, overpopulation issues that are going to become of that in developed and undeveloped and developing countries. I think the biggest problems that are like access to water, clean water and the ability for food to be grown. And with climate change looking at what are the food producing areas of the world and how that's going to change and now hopefully innovation will be made and they'll find you know new ways to deal with things. I hope to God that they're not like looking at a world where a bottle of water is 15 bucks and coffee is extinct. That would be very sad. Yeah, yeah. And I think I mean from a social political perspective I think there's a lot of potential in a green New Deal in terms of creating jobs and having a positive impact on the environment. I think that the younger generation is, I love the sense of there seems to be a movement away from materialism and consumerism. Or maybe it's just my kids, but that sense of life is about relationships and experiences not about things. Which actually when my husband and I got divorced and me individually took a huge financial, I guess, big financial hit and I you know, I remember saying to the kids and like I'm sure they didn't get it but it was like, okay guys we're changing our approach to life. Life is about experiences and relationships not about things. So, Christmas is going to be going skiing and going on vacations, and we're not getting a million presents. We don't need a million, you know, we don't need stuff anyway, and I think my kids are like good at that. From what I hear, you know in a general way, like my daughters like I don't need a car I'll just Uber and it's better for the environment and I ride my bike where I go places and my son and his girlfriend reuse and recycle like furniture and clothing and like guitar stuff and you know, that's which I think is really healthy for our environment and for them. So, like, you know, it's not all gloom and doom. Like if you guys can collectively get it together and shut down anybody who wants to work on Wall Street. And I think there is a sense. I hope there's this sense that there's more to life than just making a lot of money. So yeah. Yeah, we can get it together and have snacks and it'll be great. So, I think I only have one more question for you. So, I know that you had talked about being involved with different forms of activism throughout your life. But do you think that when you became a mother, do you think that being a mother motivates your activism at all or what do you think motivates your activism the most? You know, I guess indirectly being a mother but the motivation for activism, is for me it's about making things better. Standing up against, speaking out about what is unjust. Stopping what is illegal, speaking up for those who cannot speak up for themselves. So, I think indirectly yes, because all those characteristics are characteristics of young people, but I think...so indirectly. But I think like if I didn't have children, I would still be as political. Just the driving force is different. Yeah. Okay. Absolutely.Are there any questions that I didn't ask that you wish I would have asked you? I just want to say from a political perspective, my children are more left leaning than I am. I have considered myself a liberal, you know, like when people say I am a liberal my ex-husband referred to me as a bleeding-heart liberal, which I think is you know, and I know my kids are even further left, which I find interesting. But you know, I think the right I think that moving towards a more Progressive kind of democratic-socialist platform makes a lot of sense for a country where there is such a significant difference between the Haves and the Have Nots. I mean I have been hearing about, talking about, reading about the Haves and the Have Nots for the last 30 years. Access to the internet, access to technology have helped that difference grow exponentially and I think it’s kind of cool that my kids are saying enough is enough. Yeah, I can't think anything else. Perfect. Well, thank you so much for letting me interview you. Yeah. And good luck with your project and to to my friend Bill's question, why not dads? That's a good question. So, since it's such a small project that we're doing. So, I'm only interviewing three people for the project and so in oral history projects usually have like a pretty narrow focus on people that you're wanting to interview. So if it was a larger project then I would have loved to have done both mothers and fathers, but since it's such a small project, I was just going to do mothers because you have to have a bit of a narrower focus for oral history. Okay. Okay. Well, good luck. Thank you. Yeah, and it was pleasure talking to you... You too.