Interview with Cedric Burgess, May 18, 2021

Is it recording? Yes it is. Perfect. Alright. So it is May 18, 2021. This is an interview with Cedric Burgess by Kai Walther for the Cruising DC oral history project. Do I have your permission to record this interview?

Yes you do.

Thank you. And could you give me a brief introduction of who you are?

A nut! I am an activist, gay Black man, 100% Washingtonian, activist for seniors. I've done so much, I can't even remember. But it's great to be here.

Yes, glad to have you here! And so you've lived in DC your whole life, you said?

Yes.

Have you been in the same area the whole time or have you moved around the city?

I've been in every part of the city - Oh wait, I've never lived in Southwest.

Never in Southwest, but all the other three quadrants. Okay, pretty impressive. And so have you always identified as a gay man?

Yes, yes.

Was there a time when you came out, or what was that like?

Well, I wanted to marry my high school sweetheart, and it didn't work out. And I decided that after her, I would be gay for the rest of my life and here I am.

"After it didn't work out with her." Well, I'm glad that happened. Then now, here we are. And so, when did you first start exploring and expressing your sexuality?

In my teens.

What was that like?

Fun! It was a trial and error kind of thing. You know, coming out and growing up and back in the day, in the 70s and 80s, I had mentors. So I was pretty well protected and I did pretty good.

Okay good. What were the sort of things you did when you were figuring all that out?

Trial and error!

Okay. Did you know other gay people who were around your age?

Yes.

How did you all meet?

Well, all I can say is, during high school I didn't mess around much with people my age because it just wasn't wise. Because you never put your business out. The other thing is because I like older men, that's where I hung out. I did mess around with the kids who I knew were gay in my high school and it was just a good time to be gay. I can't say it any other way.

How did you meet these older gay men?

Cruising.

Okay, where did you go? What kind of - Where did you go to meet them?

Oh, there were parks you could go to. I did not go to bars until late. And the first bar I went to was absolutely a shocker, but it was - It was like, just go to a park where you knew they would pick up men, [you would] pick up men. Sometimes I take them home, sometimes I go to their place. Most of the time I went to their place because I was still living at home. Doing it in the car, doing it in the dark, in the bushes.

There's a part of Rock Creek Park that's still there, they call P Street Beach. Malcolm X Park, Franklin Park. There were just parks you could go to and just lounge, what have you, and you know, somebody would walk by and say Hello, Hi or whatever, start a conversation, if it worked out, it worked out.

How did you know to go to those parks?

(Unintelligible) Either the men I was working with, or I'm sorry, the men I was being with, or the guys who I knew from other schools, by the way, who I was associated with, told me about.

Were there different types of people at different parks?

Yes. And by the way, I would sometimes go with a person and like, you just sit here and come back, you know, I'll come back and blah-blah-blah, We split up and sometimes we'd be together and it was okay, it was safe. It was safe then.

What do you mean by it being safe?

You had guys that were out to hurt you, hello. Some of them weren't clean. Some of them were up to no good because you could tell, you know. After you had been out a while, you can read the personalities. So you know when to walk away, it was like you just knew from exposure.

Sure. So, how long, how much time did you spend cruising?

You could spend an hour or a whole day.

And what did you usually do?

It was touch and go. Sometimes you feel like it, sometimes you don't. What you might do is park hop. Go from one park to the other: Nothing happening here, so let me go over there. And the thing about it is too, that was really good and it was fun kind of like, it was free! It was free. You didn't have to spend any money, you met guys who wanted you to spend money on them, which I did not do, because I didn't have any. But it was free to just talk to somebody. You had to also be very cautious, especially if you went out at night. There were times it wasn't pretty to be out there.

What were some of those times?

There would be domestic fights between two men, or more. There would be robberies. They were times you picked or you chatted with someone that would try to force you into doing what they wanted you to do. So you had to get away, so you left the park. I've seen some nasty stuff, wasn't pretty. Fights and serious hurt. You just, like I said, it was the experience of being out there that taught you street smarts.

Okay, that makes sense. Do you have any stories that you could share any memories about sometime that you were cruising?

Yep. At Malcolm X Park or Meridian Hill Park, whatever you want to call it, was the park that I cruised my first lover. Gorgeous, 6-foot, gorgeous. Oh, dreamboat. I met him there. I was still in high school. He had his own place. He was employed. And he was talented and gorgeous, I got to go back to that. He was gorgeous, that's what I was about. He was gorgeous.

He was also my first heartbreak. In my mind after meeting him, we were going to be happy forever and ever, him and me. Oh, a great, wonderful, wonderful relationship. I'm going to love him forever and ever and ever, we're going to be together forever and ever. You know, the whole nine yards of being young, dumb and full of fun. Anyway, we had been together for three, four months. [In response to birds chirping in the background] The bird is telling the truth.

I got an itch and it didn't go away. So I went to the doctors and they told me that I had a disease, gonorrhea. I was faithful. Oh, baby. Because I was in lobe, L-O-B-E, lobe [love]. And I talked to him about, of course he denied and blah-blah-blah. But I knew very well it wasn't me. And we broke up. That was my first real reality of heartbreak in the gay community, picking up a man and thinking it's going to be love forever.

We got back together. Love and [unintelligible], go back be dumb dumb all over again and that's what we did. Got into it and probably we just had our two separate ways.

Thank you for sharing that.

That'll cost you fifty cents of hurt!

You two met while cruising but then a relationship grew out of that is what it sounds like.

Yes, a temporary [relationship]. Don't forget that part.

So with cruising, it doesn't sound like it was necessarily only for anonymous sex or one-time meetups.

Yes. I mean, if there was, there was, you know, like, my favorites, this would one would do this and that one would do that, but if you had them all together, you'd be a melting pot. Or a big puddle in the pot!

So earlier, you sort of mentioned that you would park hop, or you would find different types of people at different places. What were those different people that you would find at the different parks? How was it broken up?

Like I say, you just get the streets smarts of picking up who was right and who was wrong, who was safe and who was not. Yeah.

I'm going to tell you something, you better not tell anybody. Sometimes you'd have a threesome. Or foursome. And if you're lucky - [laughs] Sometimes you cruise by yourself. But you cruise with the group. Or a group would cruise you, whichever one comes first. And sometimes you break off with just one person, sometimes you may break off with two people. Sometimes y'all may stay together, have an orgy.

But back then it wasn't as bad. All you needed was a shot if anything made you itch. And you just went on and you learned to be safer. So it wasn't like you went out here and you played bad boy all the time. If you were smart, you wised up and put something on your - You put a couple on your bed, how's that?

There we go. So, where did you meet the people that you would do group cruising with? Or where would you meet other gay people? Would it be through cruising or would you find them in other places?

In the early days it was the parks, in the later days it was bookstores, when we had them here in DC, then clubs.

Which parks was it? You mentioned Malcolm X, P Street Beach, and Franklin Park. Where there are other places you went to?

There were but I can't remember.

Right. Okay.

Well, I can't handle it.

Fair enough. Were there times when you were more or less active in cruising?

Sometimes yes, you would go there just to meet somebody. Not necessarily to have sex but just to have somebody to talk to. And sometimes it was the other way around, you know? So it worked out on that aspect.

So it sounds like it was both sort of like a social place and also a place where you could pick people up. Did you notice that there were different subcultures among DC's gay population?

I'm sorry, could you repeat that?

Different groups among DC's gay population.

Are you talking about ethnic?

Ethnic or just like social groups of different types of gays that would spend more time together.

There was - going back to trial and error. In the meeting of people from these various parks, you met people from everywhere. I mean, the accents you could tell. I'm not going to lie about it. Some of it was okay and some of it was like, I'll never do that again. I tried a little bit of everything. I'm not going to lie, back then you could do that. So you learn. Let me give you one, this is a good one.

One of the things I thought I would really love was a hairy man. It was okay, but give me smooth skin. So I learned that using trial and error.

Right. Were there any differences or conversations between people who were and weren't out at the time?

Let me just put it this way. I knew if a man was married, I didn't have much to worry about. If he was single, he may be an issue. If he himself was trying to find himself, you don't want to get caught up in that drama. I myself, I was out, period. So I just told that straight out. Some of them had hang ups about certain things I did because I was a little flamboyant. So I couldn't be myself. I had to be macho. Some of them were so prejudiced and paranoid you couldn't wear certain clothing. Those were the straight men, or the ones that were fighting with their own identity. And some of them got into conflict with people who have said after we got together, I'm not gay anymore. Yeah, they could not agree with themselves.

And if you want to go on to another issue, we can talk about it one day, about my experiences with black churches and being gay. Now, that's a whole new story. That's gonna take an hour.

The other thing is too, I met people through various things I did through the churches. Churches, wasn't just one just one, churches. You cruised in church.

Can you talk a little bit more about that?

You sing opera, I'll sing tenor. Let's get together and make some noise. How's that for you? Let's see who can hit the high note! You say piano, I say, [unintelligible]! That was something, there. I cruised at - But the thing about it is, like I said, I had good mentors who told me simply two things: You don't cruise where you work, where you go to school, or where you go to church. I went to a lot of churches. Didn't cruise in mine.

So in that capacity, I was closeted or trying to be closeted, but of course you go somewhere and here comes one of your choir members, that was another story. Then you sing opera and I'll sing tenor. Want to have some fun? I'll sing opera, you sing tenor.

I like it when you laugh.

You make me laugh a lot! So you would go to churches to pick up guys?

Not to pick up guys. If it happened, it happened. I mean, you didn't run in there, you know, like, I'm here to find a man. No, it wasn't like that. Or one of - something else. But you know, you can pick it out, you can read people. So, somebody will come to you, or you go to them and you shake hands and you did a little finger thing. You know about that?

No, what's that?

Are you for real?

I'm for real!

Okay. You give a handshake, you hold onto the hand, you take your long index finger and you rub the palm of their hand while you're shaking hands. That's an indication of, "Hey baby, can we, you know, after your husband leaves?" That's the palm thing! There's a name for it, but I don't know what it is right now. But yeah, you shake hands, you rub the middle finger in the palm. And if they did it back, that meant y'all are going to connect.

So when would you do that with people? When you met them out or -

When you know it's right to do so. I mean it wasn't something - In a situation like I said, you're in church, something like that, and you're shaking the hand of another choir member from another choir, "Hey, meet me outside, let's talk. Pastor's looking." I just enjoyed their part of my life. That was fun cruising.

It sounds like it was. When did you stop cruising?

You can stop?

Oh, maybe you haven't stopped.

Am I dead?

Fair enough, fair enough.

When I'm dead I'll stop cruising. Or blind. No, no, no, baby. As long as you got eyes to see, admire the art of God. People look good, people look bad. But you always stare at the good looking, you know. Sometimes you drool! That's embarrassing.

What's your cruising look like now? Is it the the making eye -

Discreet, discreet, discreet. Okay, let me give you one. I got busted. Going in to Safeway. Three fine looking brothers, built like shit brick houses, in tight pants. I'm not going to look at that, are you kidding me? Well, I just eyeballed all that candy. And one of them caught me, and said, "Oh, you're looking at me!" And I said, "Yes, and I have great taste."

The other two saw what was happening, they heard it. They just fell out laughing. You try to be discreet, but you have to be seen too. And if you get caught, you know, it was good as good, if it ain't, it ain't.

So when you're talking about cruising, that's just that checking people out. Is there a separate or a difference in the next step of picking someone up?

Hold on, hold on. Cruising goes on all the time, okay? Now, cruising can be - Well, to me it's just looking at people. Not necessarily looking to pick up people. But you went to particular places to pick up people, that's when you're cruising.

But I'm just admiring bodies and people out there now. I tell you, I go past basketball courts and places where they play soccer. And I'm just cruising, but I'm not trying to pick up anybody. I'm just looking at it, okay? If I'm cruising, I would go out to some place particular to pick up someone and then I'm cruising. Not just looking, you know, admiring candy, eye candy. But cruising still goes on. I just don't know where anymore. All the places I used to go and cruise, even the bars are gone.

Yeah. It's gotten really cold.

Were you active in going out and picking people up during the 80s when AIDS hit the DC area?

That was during the era - Oh baby. It was high and hot to be gay and along came AIDS. Now in the black community, we did watch what was happening. And of course it was - Until it hit the gay community, we really didn't pay that much attention to it. But when it hit, we saw and we know what happened. A lot of folks went back in the closet. Some of them wouldn't even bother to mess with gays at all, denounced it. All that pressure and whatever. That's what did that. But, yeah, I got more cautious.

I found out I was HIV positive in '89. But I got a second opinion that said I was not positive. There were good and bad diagnoses because it was new. But in '91 that's when I was totally told it was true that I was HIV-positive. Of course your cruising stops or slows down or whatever. I didn't stop living. Cruising still did exist because you still got to have companionship. Even if it's temporary.

It still goes on, it's something that's in my nature. I like beautiful men. I just can't help it. If you got a big butt, my head turns all the way around. I'm a butt man! It's not intentional, it's a habit. It's a wonderful, safe habit, and I can say there's no harm in looking.

That's true, that's true. When you were out in the parks cruising, did you ever notice people monitoring or trying to control the spaces? Maybe police presence being there, or rules, or cutting down trees to have less places - Did you ever notice any of that?

Maybe, maybe. You bring back memories. In Malcolm X Park, you are not supposed to be there after midnight. There was a curfew and the other parks in the area as well.

We had little signal calls to say the park police or the police were coming through, so we knew where to go and where to hide or leave. You know how you turn all the lights on in the kitchen and it's full of roaches and they just start to scatter? That's what we did.

Weekends we would be in there all night long, a couple of six-packs of beer, some music, we had boombox back then. There's a party going on and it would last until 6:00 in the morning. Here's the good dirty part of it, between 4:00 and 6:00 a.m. on a summer day, that was the hottest time. So when you got out of the club, you went home, took a nap, you go to the park. You pick up, you go home, you let them out when the sun goes down.

Okay. So when the police were there, the park police or whatever, it sounded like you just let them do their thing but you knew how to get around them and continue using the space.

Honestly, the police didn't want to bother us, but they had to do the thing they had to do. One time - Well a couple of times, they got to the point they would recognize some of us, like Man, aren't you going home? We don't want to take you in. Too much paperwork!

But seriously, that's what they did. They didn't want to do it, but they had to do it because it was the law. Now, the other thing was too, every now and then you'd have somebody who was too fucking stupid and loud. If you were [pause] subtle, you could do your thing and the neighbors wouldn't - I mean, you weren't in a jungle! You had buildings around you, you had people around you.

Some places - I'm going to tell you about it - Some places where you cruise, you faked it while you were there. Greyhound bus station. Trailways bus station. Union Station. Oh, I'm here to meet a friend. I got to pick up a friend. I just saw my aunt off. That's my grandma going home. Sure you are, but you're in the bathroom for 40 minutes.

I see. [laughs]

I had fun. It was not that bad. HIV was later in my life, but those were the times I could do stuff. I'd go to the Greyhound bus station

and cruise, I'd go to Trailways and cruise. I'd go to Union Station and cruise. And I mean, I knew the whole nine yards of getting underneath the stalls. With three people.

That's pretty impressive.

You're greedy, or a whore, or both! And you don't care, you're young!

Like I said, going back to the parks, you knew when to be there and when not to be there. The other thing is too, it goes back to the knowledge of streets, you knew also the people who meant harm would come out also. There were guns pulled, there were robberies. There were things that you didn't want to be a part of, you had caution. You had some folks that would come there after going through the clubs, they would come there drunk and want to be with somebody or something like that: "I want a motherfucking faggot, I want to fuck them, kick his mouth in," blah-blah-blah. But they want them. It was really weird. It was a whole lot of fun, but God is good, I'm still here and I'm telling my story. So go ahead, ask another question.

Okay, sounds good. You mentioned that you wouldn't mess with guys or it was better to be with guys who you saw had a wedding ring on because there wouldn't be any issues with that. Can you explain more?

They have to go home! That's the story, if they got a wedding ring on, you know they have to go home, so they didn't spend a whole lot of time with you - Do you know what the 4 Fs are?

I want you to tell me.

Four Fs. Think about it.

I'm pretty sure fucking is probably one of them. I don't know what the others are.

It's in there. Find them, fool them, fuck them, forget them. It works. It works!

Yeah, that makes sense. Was that your mantra as you were out, picking up guys?

Uh-huh.

Okay. Were there any - Remind me, did you work for the government at all?

Let's put it this way. If you asked me if I served in the military, I never served in the military but I did serve the military. Government workers too. My first summer job was at the government printing office. Boy, did I pass a lot of ink. I was a good-for-nothing kind of guy. Yeah, yeah - [To birds chirping in the background] Will y'all shut up? Yeah, I did that.

Was there any ever any fear about being caught or outed to your employer or anything like that?

Never.

Why is that?

I was smart. I didn't do anything on my job. The thing about it is, you learn how to carry yourself. I never was in a situation or being on a job where I wasn't out. I mean, you can't bring me out if I'm already out. You can't do that. So I was never in the closet. If I was to move to a certain place back in my youth. I would always check it out if it was gay-friendly.

We had a place I almost moved to, let me tell you what was called: Punk Plaza. The reason why it was called Punk Plaza, it was because it was full of gays back in the '80s and '90s. And we partied there. It was a huge apartment building and it was called Punk Plaza. That was the nickname. The real name of the apartment was Park Plaza. But if you said Punk Plaza, they knew where you hung out. Another place you went and cruised.

Okay. Is that on 16th Street?

Oh, you've been there! I knew it! I saw you in the bathtub! Yeah, that's what it is, Park Plaza. And they changed the name if you passed by it now, they changed it. It's no longer called Park Plaza, it's called something else. And I was like, I still know who you are. But that was back in the day, it was a whole lot of fun. A whole lot of gays living in that building. And they had a tiny swimming pool, and you wore tiny teeny trunks. Okay, go ahead with your next question.

Did you - Were there ever guys out cruising who were super closeted and could not be out?

[Nods] I had several men who gave me instructions as to when to come by. Had to be gone by a certain time, certain days. It was a calendar to keep. But it was fun. It was - For me it was okay. Yeah, that that was a trip.

Oh, and of course you got to touch on this one. The ones that you can't tell nobody. Oh, don't you tell nobody, If find out you told somebody, I'll kick your motherfucking face. In the black community, there were many guys who was married or in a relationship with a woman, whatever the case. But they were, "Oh, you're cute. Come over here boy. He ain't doing nothing. Get busy." Yeah, I was in a lot of those situations. A couple of them were violent. You didn't hit me, because I hit you back. I'm from the ghetto.

I have, and was, in such situations where I had to hide, sneak out the window, things like that. It existed, but it goes with the program.

True true. And DC,'s such a tourist place and also a government place, and people coming in from all over the world, all over the country, was that - Did you see that as well in the people who were out cruising?

Yes. At some of the hotels is where I found that out. The staff who were there from other countries or whatever. There were hotels where you went to enjoy. Say, for instance, you pick up somebody at the Trailways bus station, you go and get a hotel room, the hotel was gay-friendly, staffed, you met some of them. They were not from this area or from this country. So you were exposed to - What's the word? I got eco-friendly. What you call it? Ethnicity. People from other countries, ta-da. Cultures! That's the word. You weren't any help. Stop laughing!

Sorry about that.

But you met people - That was another thing that exposed you to the other side of gay people.

Back to cruising in the park, I've met so many people from other countries and other places. That was cool. I mean, I had some fun cruising. You got me kind of like, I want to go cruising now. When can I go?

Did you ever travel places and then went cruising while you were there? Outside of DC.

Oh yeah, Philadelphia, New York, Atlanta, Baltimore, all up and down the East Coast.

Did you go to these places to cruise or you were there, so you figured, "might as well"?

It was a pit stop along the way of partying. I by myself, no. But you know, we would travel in groups, going here and then wherever for something, party or whatever. Back then they used to have house parties. You go to Philadelphia for a house party, Baltimore for a house party, for a club gathering, for something, you know, socializing. We did a lot of that back in the day.

But yeah, the thing you had to be careful with was the person you're with. If you're supposed to be with somebody as their date, don't cruise then. Because that may cause problems. And that did happen a couple of times, not necessarily me cruising them but me being cruised. So it's a two-way street. So that was that.

Did it change at all when there were more gay bars, gay clubs, gay bookstores? Was there a change in people going to the parks to cruise?

I was too busy doing at all. [laughs] See, the thing about it is, I wanted to make sure was I was not in a relationship when I was cruising. The relationships I had, I had. But I had more time to cruise than relationships and it was okay with me.

Yeah, last time you told me I think that there's a park in P Street Beach that you carved you and your lover's initials into, is that true?

Yep.

Where is it? I've been looking for it because I used to live right by P Street Beach.

When you go in the park off of P Street, go down that hill. Make a left, you go across that little tunnel thing where the water comes through. Go further up, you got to go up in the bushes. It'll be like one, two, three, four, five, maybe 50 feet into the area.

Okay.

It's one of those big trees. I hugged onto that tree while I went [mimes carving into a tree] while somebody went [unintelligible]. So there. And you better not tell it!

Nope. Nope. I'm gonna look for it, though. I'm going to look for it now that I know more where it is.

I would like to go down there but I can't remember where it is. My head was too tight.

I'll let you know if I find it.

Oh, the other thing is too, back in the day you cruised at Mr. P's, there were disco clubs in the alley. There was two of them on on 22nd Street. And when the clubs were over, you went to the park. It would be packed, but again the police knew that was happening so they would come with their flashlights and stuff, and try to bust up the party. But we knew they were coming so we would get ready, make a little sound or whatever the case may be, and get the hell out of the park or hide. And if you crossed the creek, if it was low enough, you went to the other side. But they got wise after a while, they went to the other side and caught you. Again, it goes back to that they didn't really want to go through all this stuff, you know, just get out the park, go home, you know it's closed. But if you got there before they got there, you got laid. I'm skipping out, la-la-la-la-la.

So did they make the rule of the park closes at dark because of the cruising, do you think?

No, it was open. No, no, no. It was open until midnight then they turned it down to ten o'clock. And then they turned it down to after dark. No cruising after dark. But back then, there weren't any signs then.

Because I know all the Rock Creek Park areas near me all have signs that say "park closed after dark," so I'm wondering if that's a -

I'll tell you one, I'll tell you one. Okay, don't tell nobody.

I won't.

One year I was young, 20. Riding through Rock Creek Park with a friend. Well, it wasn't intentional. We decided to pull to the side, go up in the woods, and do our thing. Well we did. And while we were thing-doing, a big bright light hit us. It was a park policeman. Well, we both just knew we was gone, right?

The biggest fantasy happened right there and there. He joined in. Me, this guy, and a park policemen in uniform. Oh my God. We had a good time. That started my uniform fantasy. Anything in uniform after that, baby I was hot for. That started a whole new kind of cruising.

Oh that's wild!

But it led to me finding out about the leather community. Oh, I got hot for that too. [pause] Next question.

Next question. Okay, what was it? Maybe need to calm down a little bit! You said something that made me think of another question.

Okay, I got to go to the bathroom. Can we cut for a second?

Yeah, sounds good. [short break]

Welcome back.

Hi.

Hi, welcome back. So, I actually don't have that many questions left for you. But, looking back, what stands out most to you about your experience with cruising?

Be careful. I made it sound like it was a whole lot of fun and games, but every now and then there were some conflicts. When I did get my own place, I would take somebody home and find em, fool em, fuck em, forget em. I would forget them but they would not forget me. And sometimes they would show up at my door while I got other company.

I have started wars between me and that person, or that person and the other person. Every now and then, I run into somebody who I didn't realize liked me a whole lot. I fucked up some hearts and I didn't mean to. I was playful because of the simple fact - When I got hurt from my first lover, I didn't believe it anymore, that dream of me and him; "everybody's full of shit." And I lived that lifestyle. So I didn't commit to anyone.

The one relationship that really really meant something was my friend and I, Alex. We were together for 10 years. Here's the deal with that. And this is not something to do with cruising. We had been together for several months. One day he said he's got to go his way and I said I got to go my way. But we had already, mind you, committed ourselves to each other.

What happened? We wound up in the same place cruising. Yeah, that actually happened. Well, we were torn about it. Something's up, something's up. So, we went home together, we talked about a whole bunch of stuff, and what we came up with was simply this: Okay, if you must go out and do anything, three things you don't do. You don't have unprotected sex. You don't bring them home. And you don't tell them you love them. Well, after those three vows were made, both of us decided we didn't want anybody else.

Our relationship became a lot stronger, and we stayed together for 10 years. He died of HIV. So that's a happy cruise story,

Right. I've heard people comparing apps and online dating sites to cruising. What are your thoughts on that?

It sucks. But it's effective. You get to narrow down what you're looking for because in cruising in my day, you didn't know what was coming. This site, you can narrow - these sites, rather, you can narrow down to what you want. Local, international, doesn't matter. I mean, big, tall, short, fat, wide, clothes, closeted, whatever. It's all out there. Any freak style, any lifestyle, whatever you want to call it, it's all out there. So you can - it's just a whole new era. If you know how to use a computer.

If you're my age and you don't, you're alone.

So, you haven't used any of the online.

Oh God no! Not me. No, never ever had. Adam for Adam [covers mouth]

I'm going to google that right now.

[laughs] You want some more?

If you have them!

Do you know of any gay women who cruised? Or wait, you're about to say something.

I'm sure they do, I'm sure they do. But I want to go back and tell you something. It's gone now but there was the biggest cruise site in the world to me was Craigslist. Craigslist, you met your neighbor across the street. Oh, I did. Neighbor upstairs in my other building. Craigslist was huge.

And that was the thing that got me hooked. Somebody introduced me to that, and I met some - episodes. Let's call it that, episodes. I met some episodes.

But they had to shut it down because of violence.

Yeah, that's what I heard.

You know what happened?

I think it was used for like, a human trafficking ring or something like that, right?

No, no, no. Some people had picked up the wrong people and they robbed them. People were getting robbed because you put yourself out there and they pretend they're something they're not and come rob you. And it got to the point where the government, I mean, police said, nope, no more. It was two killings. I think it was. Yeah, two things that led to killings.

The story is, I'm trying to remember how this was. It was two women who went after - I don't know. It's weird. Go ahead with your next one.

Did you write personal ads or respond to personal ads ever?

On the internet?

The internet or like The Blade, or I think the Black Light, that was another paper.

The newspapers back in those days sucked. You didn't have to! I didn't.

You had no problem finding people?

No, I didn't. It would be by accident. I'd be on the bus sometimes. You know, all I'm doing is trying to cross the street, buy some clothes. The mall were cruisy. I got to go pee, it's only going to take 40 minutes.

Only going to take 40 minutes.

Y'all continue shopping. Leave me on the other end of the mall where this room is. I forgot your question.

Don't worry about it. You answered it.

How did Craigslist - How was Craigslist cruising different from the in-person stuff?

It was, it was one of the most popular and that was the thing that got me hooked. The thing about it is, who didn't know who you were going to see on there, or who was going to see you. You could post your picture, you might get a response from your next door neighbor if you put your picture out there. People would ask what you look like, blah-blah-blah, and it was several situations where somebody close by, "I've been watching you. I know you, I know where you are," blah-blah-blah. So that kind of proves a thing. You didn't tell them what you were into. Well, I did, but I guess my experience made them curious: "I wonder what he's all about, oh my!" He said he was a virgin!

[laughs] So in comparison to the all the places where you've gone and you've picked people up and you've met people and cruised was there anything particular about DC's cruising or gay culture that stands out to you?

Clubs. You could pick up folks at clubs. You wouldn't even try, just go to a club.

And that was unique to DC? That was unique to DC?

It was original.

I mean, it was, it was original for Washingtonians. I mean - No, no, no, no, no. That isn't coming out right. It was just like straight life, you know, straight people go to clubs and meet people, you went to gay clubs to meet people. That's where you cruised. Yeah, it was a way of cruising without [unintelligible]. You either said you do or you don't, you drank, you went home, whatever.

There is no more gay clubs for Blacks in DC. There are no gay Black clubs in DC.

There's not many clubs at all. But yeah.

There are no gay Black clubs that - I think there's maybe three. But the whole situation has changed. Now they just have mixed clubs or gay on certain days and - oh, come on.

That sucks. But anyway.

What clubs did you use to go to?

Brass Rail. Tracks. Nob Hill. You want to know about the district or know about the whole nine yards?

The district. Let's keep it in the district.

Okay, um, oh gosh. Victoria Station was the first Club I ever went to.

Where was that?

That's before you were even born. I tell you, if you know about music and soul music, this was back in the day that Stevie Wonder put out "Signed Sealed Delivered." The Supremes had broken up. And "Up the Ladder to the Roof" was the song that they put out after the breakup. I was in the corner, drinking rum and cokes, a nervous wreck, scared somebody was going to see me. Well after about my third drink, people who came through the door I recognized. They recognized me. There's a dance floor up the spiral staircases. I went up on that floor and that floor was doing like this [mimes floor moving up and down] and we danced ourselves simple through the night. But I never forgot. That was my first gay club experience.

Pier Nine is before your time too. That was also down in Southwest before Tracks. That was another place I went to. I mean, the whole history of the black gay community clubbing. I can tell you about Bachelors Mill, it was the last one that was here. Bachelor's Mill. They closed.

The Delta Elite was a disco club. When they first opened, we were there. When they closed, I wasn't there. It changed a lot. But it was all one level when we first joined it, because you had to be a member. Couple of months or a couple of years, I can't remember, they opened up the basement so you could dance upstairs or downstairs. And the hustle was a big dance. And if you know about the hustle dancing, it was a hand dance, and you did a dip. Baby, we were all over. The place is packed, like about 200 people or more, and you watch people dancing. They're just twirling one another, you know, and doing the dip thing. But baby, this child went to dip this other child and girlfriend hit her head. And we heard that. You know, she kept going. That's what I won't forget.

That's crazy.

Well, back in that day, it was acid. You didn't feel anything until that shit wore off. That was before crack. We had acid. So that kept me in the party mood and cruising mood for quite a while, I could fuck the whole weekend. [covers mouth]

Okay! This interview is through, right?

Right. Unless you have anything else to talk about, that's actually all my questions.

It's been wonderful. Thank you.

Thank you so much. This was so much fun, so good and I will get the transcription a nd the recording and everything to you as soon as I have that ready to go.

Don't tell nobody.

I won't.

it's just between you and me.

Your secret's safe with me.

Washington Post, I'll be watching it. [laughs]

Alright. Alright, I won't sell it to them I guess.

Well look, I'm glad I did this. I'm glad you're smiling. So, it's all good.

Me too.

So if you need me again, I'll be here.

Sound good. I have your email.

You're staying safe, right?

Yes, yes I am.

Very good. All right my friend, much love to you be safe.

Yeah you as well, bye Cedric.

Hasta la vista baby .