Interview with Donald Hughes, October 9th, 2021

Make sure it's going. All right. So it is August 9th 2021. This is an interview with Donald Hughes by Kai Walther for the cruising DC oral history project and this is a virtual interview. So first of all, do I have your permission to record this?

Yes.

Okay, thank you. And could you just share with me a brief introduction of who you are?

Well, you know my name. I'm Donald Hughes. I'm an only child, I'm adopted. I have a dark side, unaccepted side. And rebooting myself back into what's so-called - What is called society. I think I was a little rebellious. My rebellious - Part of me that is rebellious and ashamed took precedence. And [was] a substance abuser. I have come 33 years of recovery. And I am a product of the judicial system.

My hustle is boosting - back then we called them drag queens - Going in drag and soliciting. And I had to be able to accept that part of myself to be in a position to - I'm a hairdresser. I'm well traveled, I think. Well, I'm told. And I've been fortunate enough to be introduced to a clientele of people of note who in turn have shared with me a lot. Introducing me to theater, others that I may have read about, looked at on TV. And at 65 retired medically and kind of do hair as a hobby, I have a little studio here.

I'm a transplant patient. I've been HIV since -recording when it was put on paper - since 1987. I've always had low numbers. My first numbers were 319 when there was a T-cell count. And I've been as low since the kidney transplant, the triple bypass, and I've been OD'd on shingles medication and went into - I can't recall six days of my life.

And I think that I have some value, if not to the public, to myself. I try to today to be at peace. Not to, you know, how you're in a store and you say can I speak to the manager? And my heart will start racing, then I may have a heart attack. I'm not trying to go there.

I'm trying to, at 65 years old, be compliant with medical and trying to, as well as maintain life, maintain this organ that's inside my body that allows me to produce urine. Because when people are on dialysis, some - most of us at some point do not urinate and we wait to go to dialysis to get waste removed.

Through therapy, through being in intense treatment as demanded by the judge because of all my charges, I have been able to present that part of my life as well. As I believe I've had a very successful career as a cosmetologist and I'm just willing to help out, share wherever I can. I think that's how I would define myself. I'm sure there are other definitions of me but that's how I would define myself.

Sure. Thank you for that. Yeah, I was looking around on your website and cosmetology and hairdressing, you have a lot of clients and lists and places that you spoken to and been on, it was really impressive.

And that was condensed. I had a therapist who recently transitioned who is like a mother to me. I used to have a CV, curriculum vitae, and it was pointed out to me that that was just too much for a hairdresser.

Fair enough, still looks very impressive on the website.

And I just have that because I'm not that computer savvy, but it feels good to have a little card to present. Say, you know, "here's my website that will tell you a little bit about me." And when people want to know, I shoot that off to them. Yeah and I guess that should take more care in pictures but I haven't ot around to it.

It's always hard because you have to have your good hair and have a good outfit on and need to be ready for it.

Yeah, absolutely. Trying trying to be age-appropriate but current.

Exactly. And how do you identify your sexuality?

I believe that I am queer. It's given me - I used to look at myself as a member of the trans community, but I believe that I'm queer because I'm open to all aspects of sexuality. And I've participated in basically - with the exception of a few - all of them. So I think the word queer covers them. So that's how I would identify.

And what made you change the language from identifying as part of the trans community to using the language of queer?

I dress and identify myself with the pronouns "he, him, his." Most people look at the trans - But I'm from the old school of drag, so most people look at the trans community as someone who identifies themself as the opposite of what their gender teller is. Rather than go through a lot of definitions, it's easier to say I'm queer.

Absolutely. It absolutely is. It can mean sort of whatever you want it to mean, it's different for everyone, which is what I like about queer as well. And so, what was your coming-out experience like? I'm assuming you've had multiple coming out experiences. I know I have, but perhaps maybe one of the first ones or one of the most memorable times for you.

Well, we had a fashion show in high school, of course I dropped out and need to get a GED. And we had to find stores to sponsor us in the clothes we were wearing or going to wear. And this guy referred me to a fashion designer that he knew, and the guy was gay. Very femme, but felt as though he was very grand, he's married with two children. And I saw how he carried himself and I liked it. I even, as moving out and coming back home to live with my parents, [coming] in and out, in and out.

When I did come out, because I played football, basketball, I did get called sissy and touched on my behind, the last to be picked on the team. I remember a neighbor - And I was supposed to do her hair recently for her daughter. I'm glad it didn't happen, because I remember her hollering across the street to another neighbor saying, "Have you seen the new breed in the neighborhood?" I felt like - I may not be right - but I felt like she was talking about me.

What word did she use?

Breed. Like a breed of people.

Oh.

You see what I'm saying, where I'm coming from with that?

Yeah, oh yeah, I wouldn't want to help her out either.

And then while being locked up, you know, when I got in trouble, I'd always want to change. I felt like my lifestyle was the reason why I was in jail. But predators said all sorts of stuff to me and they did make sense. If I were in drag on the street and soliciting, how am I going to come in there? So I tied my shirt up and we would - I think we got Colgate. You wet the box and that gives you a little lipstick. And they let us keep our shoes, so I had a pair of boots that I came in with and tied my shirt up and I marched out there and the reception, along with the other activity that comes along with that, was the reward. It was better living that was and being who I was than trying to put myself together and change.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. A profound lesson to learn.

Yes. And I call them predators, but to be, especially tr- well, no to just be gay in jail is - So they used to put it like a queen's paradise. Of course it was a rude awakening for me because I was very young. And I had no experience. And so it got me in a lot of trouble, especially in the end.

So I've had some devastating experiences. And one was in DC we used to have a reformatory called Lorton. And when you go to court in DC, there was a Lorton cage. We used to have bars. They have sliding doors and fancy things now. And a guy from Lorton told me to come there after I spoke to my lawyer, you normally speak to the lawyer before you go up to see the judge. And I had the guard put me back in the DC cage. I didn't know anything about separation for what they called homosexuals. And when he came from seeing his lawyer, he had them to put him in the DC cage.

I told them I was going to be a hairdresser, get my GED, and all that. And he said that he was going to have to F me up. And he understood because when you go to jail, you have a you have a wristband with a number. That number follows you all of your life. So anybody can look at your number and tell whether you're fresh meat, old meat, or you just came in, and, you know, my number was brand-new. So he started hitting on me and I screamed for the guard, grabbing the poles of the bars. The whole group just drowned me totally out. If he had not kicked me and the guard saw him, I wouldn't have been taken out of that cell. I mean, taken out of that what they call it, the bullpen.

Of course, the people, you know, when I tell that story, the judge is used to prostitutes, thieves, coming before them every day. And the judge was the only one that really shut me up because every time I go before the judge, I was going to school, I was going to get my GED and get myself together, and the judge "tap tap tap tap."

So I went to a treatment facility for drug addicts for three and a half years of my life. They called it therapeutic communities back then. Even there I was going to change because I didn't want to be gay anymore. And they, the director - I was out - Had to take a shower in Lysol, was with older residents who had been there three years. I was there three and a half years, and they helped me.

We had a DC paper called the Blade in DC. When I was there a little longer, I got an opportunity to receive the Blade and we worked on a social network. And me being the only LGBT person there that was out. Of course, there's other behavior, you know what I'm saying, that you would note. But there everybody was straight and I was the only gay person there. So I had an opportunity to build new relationships with contacts from out of the Blade. I had to go to staff and let them know who I met. And that's how I became involved. I didn't even know there was a gay community. You know, I just thought there was gay people and we all did what we did. I didn't know there was such organization back then.

What time period, vaguely, was this?

That was in '79, '78. I left the program in '80. So, I left the program with a whole new perspective. And I met a whole lot of new people who were very encouraging and very supportive. In the beauty industry, I met some real divas, some real divas. You know, I was just - I don't - I guess they call them hood rats or street walkers or whatever they call them. But I was used to a different kind of person.

So over the years, I have been nurtured, looked after and I still pay attention today to my mental health. I still go to therapy because I do better when someone is gently helping me run my life. Back then I found that mature older people. taught you about hygiene, how to present yourself, how to Ignore criticism, how to get around different things. Today it's wide open. People are very comfortable being who they are,

Right. It is in some ways, a lot easier now and easier to find other LGBT people as well.

And they don't mind. I guess there's a phrase called DL [Down low, not openly gay]. But even them, they have their own network, friends and you can speculate and look at them and you really know who they are. There's still a few haters, still a few. And I've been on the front line in my journey when I came out -

And I didn't talk about - I think I did talk about being HIV. Yeah, because I said T-cells. But advocating for medicine. The [AIDS] quilt. Preparing a panel to be sewn to that quilt that was laid out down at the Washington monument. Being part of a group called ACT-UP. I used to drink tea. I used to do lot of hair shows and travel and I'd go to different herb stores because we would be talking about different herbs that would help the body because people were so resistant to the drug AZT. I wasn't resistant to it. I took seven pills a a day.

Now I take 30 to 35 pills a day, but that's less than I was taking before I had the transplant. So I'm used to taking pills. And I'm used to, you know, even from the early days of being diagnosed, used to being able to comply with physicians and clinicians. Sometimes I get angry because I feel like I am the one who took the hit. So young people like yourself can be who you are. And it really irritates me when a younger LGBT individual talks down to me or talks to me like I don't have any sense or I don't know what I'm talking about and I've lived life.

Absolutely, you have. Yeah, I'm interested on that same - In terms of living life, I would love to hear more about how you found a community through the Blade and what that looked like for you and what that meant for you, if you could speak more about that.

Well, it was very difficult because I walked away from people who were smoking drugs or doing drugs. At the time that I was in treatment, it was okay to drink. They didn't associate alcohol as a drug, they only associated the drugs. So I would drink - I think it's a drink called Zombie which is compiled of three white liquors. Shots of white liquor. And Sloe Gin Fizz and, you know, these specialty drinks, and still be drunk.

But what the Blade afforded me to do because they had different listings. Courtney Williams has a community newsletter he sends out, and it's basically the same as the Blade and the Metro Weekly. And in meeting people, I met other people. DC Coalition from Black Gay and Lesbian Men and Women. Lesbian and Gay. Gertrude Stein Club.

At the time when I was coming out, it was a lot of discrimination amongst ourselves. We didn't like drag queens. The white bars would want to ID the Black patrons. And most of the bars were in some seedy alley or in some warehouse somewhere. But when you walked in, the place was laid out, just laid out.

Pier Nine, Grand Central. And you could sit, I think it was the Pier, at your table and if you were interested in someone, you could call their able and they would pick up. Grand Central had chairs, like I call them Morticia Addams chairs from the Addams Family.

People put a lot of effort and quality into their drag and played it very fabulously. [Unintelligible], ostrich feathers. You know, everybody was a true fan of Cher, Diana Ross. Still fans of those today. Bette Midler.

And then I had a chance - I had to get permission to go out and I'd have to say what I was going out for and I could get overnight passes. And what was interesting, I had gotten into a relationship, so I thought, they had other relationships, but I had an overnight, and I was taking my friend to my parents house. Now, my father had already - While I was in treatment, I went to confess, which my mother had said long time ago, "No man is going to take care of you for the rest of your life." I thought she was right, but I've lived long enough to see today, "Hey," you know?

Yeah yeah, good.

And I met - You know, I have more friends behind me than I have in front of me. I still have about a handful of those people who were in my early 20s when I was discovering, finding myself, building up my career, who kind of gently help me run my life.

Good. Good. How did cruising fit into your gay experiences? Is that something that you did with some of those friends that were guiding you, or how did that fit?

I knew how to cruise a long time ago. I would be in the neighborhood smoking pot, or we give, living in an urban community, we'd give one of the alcoholics standing out - In every urban community at the liquor store, especially if there's a parking lot, there's plenty people who just stand around. Give him some change to go buy something and we pass the bottle around and then I'd leave and go cruising.

Spots were like Georgetown, Dupont Circle. On the mall at the Washington Monument they had outdoor bathrooms. Franklin Park. And a very high cruising area was P Street Beach where the stream would run and Malcolm X Park. Carnegie Library. These are all places with big scrubs and people would connect. Back then it was very easy to cruise and you go home have sex and you may have a relationship.

Today, I think you - Adam for Adam, Grindr. People are much - You can call up for sex. I have friends that can, you know, solicit sex. Sex costs too much money for me to be happy paying someone for it. And I haven't been sexually active in about 25 years. I'm a little bit more grateful to be alive.

But cruising was very good for me. It helped me meet a lot of different people who - And if I wasn't trying to solicit money from them or have them as a sugar daddy, I was once very cute and extremely approachable. There were those people who would point out things to me. And over time I have learned and when I - Subconsciously, I was learning to listen and I was listening to learn.

I don't know if that makes any sense but they certainly caught my ear and pointed out to me. And most of the people gave me - When I was feeling like I could put a price tag on myself - Gave me very little of the much they had. And I believe that because of cruising, I missed out on peer relationships, relationships with people my age. I had relationships with people who were much older than me. And today, I guess it could be called rape. But nobody really cared about how you made out, especially if you were different.

Sure. So when you were cruising, was it mainly to solicit sex or find someone older than you for like you mentioned, like a sugar daddy or something? Or was it something you did socially with friends? What did it look like?

Over time on the surface, I believe those characteristics that you just said, were surface level ideas of why I was cruising. I was cruising for affection. My loneliness. My isolation. And I thought I had found it in other people. To make me feel good about myself.

I even had - Even when I came off the streets, I even had a successful career. And I was still lonely. I believe that I didn't recognize that part of myself until later on in life, not in the prime of my life. Because I'm able to now identify the feeling with the behavior. And it would be cute to say I was a prostitute, I was making money. I don't have a dime to show for it. Everything I have comes from scratch. I am made from scratch and comes from my hard work. Cruising is not in my agenda in the last 25 years or so. But I enjoyed cruising.

I used to call it, when I was younger exploring. I used to like to leave the neighborhood, go out and find people, catch the bus and just walk. All you had to do with sashay up. You could really just identify, it was easy to - I guess today you have to come out and talk, but [it was] signals, you know, subliminal messages, a little switching, little twitching.

A lot of people walk around with their underwear hanging out and they're not gay at all.

Oh, but that used to be a gay signal?

That was a cruising technique. Or grabbing your crotch or hanging in the bathrooms, public bathrooms and department store bathrooms . And you never know who you meet. And as I look over my life, I've met some very important people, or what you call people of note, in some real sleazy dives. Street dives, alley dives, just everywhere you could stand and cars circulating. And there were many different spots.

And as they've cleaned Washington DC up, I don't know where the spots are. And places that had tall bushes, the bushes have been all cut down to knee level. So, nobody's hiding behind a bush. And I think fortunately I've taken one therapist with me. So she could - she was interested. And she, the one that transitioned, the woman, that became like a doctor mom. We call them Mimi in the African American community.

So from what you've said, that's what I thought about. You know, I forgot I didn't even click with me about the title of the word "cruising." You know, I do know Smokey Robinson's song but he wasn't talking about us. In our community, cruising, has a whole different definition.

Yeah. Yeah it does. And it's something that I think even these days is still sort of taboo to talk about.

Very much so. And the funny thing is, when you run into someone - What really kills me are the people, the senior population that I remember from when I told you about things I did, and to talk to them today, you would think that you were talking to someone who had been accomplished and accomplished things all their life. I've ran into school teachers. Sometimes I've made mine - It's been so many years, I let them know where I remember them from. Ministers, politicians, because I also hung with female prostitutes as well.

And they - I was with a friend of mine recently that I've known for 50 years. And I've learned a lot from females who have sold their body, or who have used men for their own needs sexually. And it for me, it has put up a little guard, because even when you're outdoors cruising, you certainly do have blockers where you can detect whether or not this is going to be a bad experience or whether or not this is going to be a good experience. So you never know how you're going to end up. It's a risk.

Yeah. Absolutely.

Back then was definitely a risk because people are more out today.

Was there any - I guess - I don't even know how to phrase it, but any fear of, like if you met someone who was straight in their public life, but then would go out cruising, how did you navigate those sort of situations?

As I told you - We called them family back then. Older gay people would tell you, even if you knew them, you don't speak on the street. Just walk by. And then if you had - Especially if they were with another female. But the LGBT population today, they're not tolerating it. You're going to walk past me and not speak? They will confront you.

I believe that was associated with my own shame today. And it was safer to let somebody peck on your window at night or let somebody visit you. You never knew who was coming. And you also may have been trying to have company. True company, true relationship. And here comes something knocking on the door at night. You already knew you were dealing with, we would call them a whore. So who would want that? You know you felt like you couldn't trust them.

Yeah. So in meeting people, talking, you talked about how you've met people cruising and you see them now. How did the cruising interactions go beyond just sex? What did - Did longer relationships, whether romantic or not, ever come out of those?

Yes I told you. I said you would have sex, and if you can have sex, you know, there are people who are like, you can tell when you're not compatible if you're getting in the sack and nobody's doing any kind of move and nobody's responding. How people act when when they're ready to engage in sexual activity.

There were people who knew that I was young. I always had real jobs, little half day jobs, working at a government agency for two or three days a week. And I tell them, that's where I worked at. Or getting phony ID cards for different club that would card me that would say I was older than I was. Or just using someone's draft card, they used to have draft cards back then.

When I would go to straight clubs, when I was in denial, I loved it. Especially being high and having that nerve and people admiring me and drooling over me. I don't believe I got that from my peers as much. Because I rejected my peers. But from older men, I loved it.

And even today there's an older generation that I really appreciate that is much wiser, whether they be heterosexual or homosexual, whatever they are, trans, whatever. There's a lot to be learned, but it has deprived me and I deprived myself of meaningful relationships, intimate relationships, with people that were my peers, my age. Faking enjoying someone's company or faking an orgasm or just being around people who can't reach their sexual peak in life, but they still wanted to engage.

And I believe that part of my myself is the direct result of who I am today. I never had a complete relationship. I don't think I've ever had a relationship that lasted over two years or a year and a half. And as I got - became much more independent, less dependent on someone else's success, I didn't need you. Because I had what I had. And then I was around in my industry where I worked, I was around some very arrogant people. I think in the beauty industry, it creates a level of arrogance that is superficial. And you put on a show, it's your show, people are coming to see you.

I think in my days - In today, when people come to my studio, and it's an experience. And I don't even know how it's happening, why it's happening, because I've given you a list of all these procedures and health issues. I am 65. There are people still calling me up, asking for a consultation for the person whom they are receiving services from. I had a trip- You know, I have a heart condition so I really can't do over one person a day. Two people back to back, I definitely have to lay down.

If I'm doing two people a day, you have to come pre-shampoo. Somebody has to have already shampooed. I've always had shampoo people in assistance, in fact, I patterned myself behind the lady that I work for. And I didn't know how the shampoo bowl could wear me out. It's literally wear me out, I'm beat, I'm tired. But I can remember pumping out heads then going cruising.

order I mean there were - I don't know if you're familiar with bookstores, and just dirty book stores, drop a quarter. Many have - For the ones that are left, you drop some kind of chip. But everybody was in the booths, dropping quarters or not. You know, most of the time nobody was dropping quarters and the owner of the bookstore would come back and say, "All right, I want to hear some quarters fall." And I was right downtown, so I'd go back to work. And sometimes I met somebody who would ask for my phone number. So I'd call them. Even though we had did what we did sexually.

So the book - Wait sorry, I'll let you finish. Go ahead.

That has been the start of some relationships, may have just had sex that one time from a cruising episode. Except consciously, I believe that I have built relationships in that cruising.

It sounds like it. Yeah. So what were the bookstores? I'm familiar with that there were LGBT bookstores and then, they've sort of been don't exist, faded out -

And they're clean. If you go to some place today, It's very - Like health food stores. When I was getting herbs and things to fight HIV and AIDS to help myself, they were all cruddy. Now they're bottled, clean. You know, fresh. Bookstores were the same way. Somebody may mop it.

I remember I had a friend that I used to shoot drugs with. And he came down with AIDS and I never told him about me. And then when he was in the hospital, he, you know, he told me that he had - We used to call it the virus - and I told him I had it too. He was so happy that he wasn't the only one. And I took him out one day and I pushed him in that wheelchair right in the bookstore.

And we had people called hustlers who hang out at the bookstore. They're very cheap tricks. I guess at the time it was five dollars, three dollars, which was big money then. And I think I gave a guy like five dollars to play with my friend that I had taken out. Maybe did that with about three or three or two of them. But he was very happy. He felt good about it.

I recently was with a friend that I remember when I first was getting clean and rebuilding my life. And I took him to an old bookstore. We still have one left, it's all the way out. And I think I paid - what is it - five dollars worth of coins. I thought he was going to take advantage of it because he sexually active; he wasn't even interested.

But the interesting thing was, I was seeing people my age with something young. And it reminded me of myself going in to where they had the movies and dropping coins. And you can imagine what goes on once you close the door to view the movie, especially if two people are going back there,

Right. Okay. So when you went to bookstores or department store bathrooms or different parks in DC -

Public transportation or train stations, the Greyhound bus station.

Why did you go to one place or another? Would you find different things or different types of people at the different locations, or how did you make those decisions of where to go?

Some places were a lot more active than others. And some places were not heavily cruised by the police. They knew in the park after dusk. Malcolm X Park, there was a public - We used to have outdoor bathrooms outside where you could use the restroom.

I'll never forget, I was in the bathroom and there was a whole bunch of the people in the bathroom. Could be the ladies bathroom, the men's bathroom, at night, both bathrooms were our bathroom. All of a sudden the door slammed they had a boat and said "clink!" And someone hollered, "Okay, faggots. Pull your pants up and get your IDs out."

So, I knew - I know - I remembered about getting arrested and all that. So I wanted to be the first hurry up and show my ID so I could march out of the park. And then they get your ID and your name and stuff and then if you get caught again, then they have a reason to take you down. But they give you a warning. But there were people in the vice squad, the vice squad cops. You know, you had to remember them because if you didn't, they would arrest you. And there were those police receive sexual favors from me and still arrested me.

Or you know, can you imagine being in drag and the police roughing you up. calling his other friend over, another fellow officer, and calling you S-H-I-T, telling him to look at this. Or even when I was younger going out at night after leaving the boys, a policeman picked me up in another part of town, had sex with me, and gave me a ride home. It's just a big circle. And as I'm talking to you, I'm remembering periods in my life where these things came natural. They sound very obtuse and nondescript right now, but they were a part of - they were a part of the game.

Sure. Wow. So a police officer would pick you up -

You can ask anybody who's engaged in prostitution or cruising or anything like that. Drug dealers, they take your money or drugs. But police officers aren't known for having sex with you, robbing you and then let you, then they may let you go. I mean, my last charge, it scared the hell out of me. I knew I had a lot of sexual solicitation charges, and I hopped in the car. The police pull his badge out, and I jumped out the car and ran.

They had helicopters and all the stuff and I'm knocking on the door, telling him it's me. And you know how your friends will say, Ain't nothing happening. I'm telling them, saying the police are happening. They're saying, Ain't nothing happening. Finally the police caught up with me, that policeman that I solicited to, [said] that I was the faggot that pulled a gun on him. So I got a gun charge, sexual solicitation charge.

And I was so afraid. There were people who came down before the court before I was actually going to see the judge. That particular case would not stick. There was no gun. I was going to beat that charge. I probably - That officer doesn't know that he saved my life. Now, I'm not calling people's name, but I'll call his: Carlo Petay [spelling unknown] And even when I worked at the jail, I used to do detail, everybody knew him because he was a crooked cop. Probably died with honors.

But I took something called the Alford Plea where you're not saying you're guilty or innocent. And then I was remanded to a drug program. Nobody wanted to go drug programs back then because they were three, four years long and you lived in.

Wow, yeah. So would people get arrested for just being in the parks after dark?

Oh, yes.

So, it wasn't just for sexual solicitation, it was just in some cases, just being there when there was cruising or sex going on.

Vice police would wait for you to call the price. If it's is a cruising district that has prostitutes, they wait for you to call the price. They won't let you touch their private areas because I think that it's called entrapment.

But they wait for you to quote that price and that's - I remember one day, one time I was putting the key in the door to the rooming house I was in. I had already quoted the price. The next thing I know - They're very good with quick - Silver bracelets, I call handcuffs silver bracelets.

So it really depends on what type of cruising district you are in. At the time, nobody went to the park at night other than to cruise, but nobody in there - maybe there was somebody in there watching. But everybody in there was there for the same thing.

Sure sure.

And police running people out of the men's room, same thing. When you're going to the men's room in a public place, you use it, you go out, you leave. People just standing at the urinals. People going into the booth. I remember we had a library called Martin Luther King Library. It was so bad, they had cut the doors in half. You know how you go in the door to do number two, where the toilets are? They cut them in half so as you walked by, you can see what was going on.

Oh my goodness. So, and that was you think a direct response to people -

Oh that was because - I told you about the bushes being cut down. I was taking some friends of mine, we used to - I don't even know, I think we had a nude nudity license left in DC - But I was taking some friends out maybe 30 years ago. And we got up to the Carnegie Library where there used to always be these tall trees and they had cut the trees. And then the park. This big huge park I told you about in DC, they cut the trees down. That's a direct response to the cruising. Outside sex was very plentiful during my time of coming along.

Now thinking back to some of the places that you mentioned, having been there and it's so hard to imagine because there's absolutely no tree coverage or shrubs or anything like that. I think, P Street Beach is maybe the one place.

That's been cut down too.

Oh there's still a little bit.

Just a little bit.

But the whole thing used to be.

Yes, the whole thing used to be tall trees, and then they would shine - and the Iwo Jima park in Virginia - but they would shine lights. I don't know if they're spotlights, strobe lights, but they could find, they could know if people were in the park. They'd see your shadows. Okay, you remember P Street beach. There's an area where people sunbathe at and once they come in there and start shining their light, that area where they sunbathe, every body was running out. Just running to get out of the streak.

Oh I bet, you don't want to get caught.

You don't want to get caught.

Oh my God, that's crazy.

When I think of it now, it does sound a little crazy. But it was the part of the climate, and some relationships came out of cruising P Street beach. I know I met a lot of people in P Street Beach. I think my white network that I was building relationships with came out of P Street beach. Malcolm X Park, since you're a little familiar with DC, was more urban. Carnegie Library, which is I think the Amazon building now, was urban. The court, down where the courthouses are. There were a lot of old buildings that were vacant and that whole entire Northwest area was a place to just walk and look, you know, get lucky. And it didn't take long.

That's so hard to imagine. Like I have no doubt that's the way it was. But how much has changed in just a few decades. Yeah.

The bookstores have been put up with government buildings. There are a few places you can go. You may, you may not pick up somebody. Definitely these were targeted places and the police knew about these places. You would probably get a much more in-depth interview talking to police who were assigned to those areas.

That'd be fascinating.

Wouldn't it? I remember when I used to - When I didn't do drag and was like a little boy, looking like Dennis the Menace young boys. And the men picking them up down by the bus station, Trailways and Greyhound. There were police who knew the beat and knew who you were.

Would they arrest you? Or they just - They wouldn't let it -

They knew who you were. They just knew you were a regular. And there was a - There was a place called Nathan's on New York Avenue, that strip. It was a bar downstairs and a hotel upstairs. There were places that were called - I guess they would call trick houses - they charged by the hour. And the cost of living was cheap. I was on the street for a while, but I paid my rent. I always had a shot in the morning. I think drugs were much cheaper then, because when I hear the price of drugs today and then - I think drugs were much more cleaner and purer than they are today.

I believe that.

You knew what you were putting in your system.

Sure,

I think everything today is laced with some kind of fentanyl or something like that or some synthetic something that somebody has put in to make you hallucinate.

Yeah, yeah. I feel like I've heard a lot about that. So you mentioned that P Street beach was more for your white connections. And then Malcolm X Park was maybe more African-Americans. So were the cruising spots fairly racially segregated?

Yes, consciously. Because there are white men who are attracted to Black men, so they wouldn't go to P Street beach or Mr. P's or anything like that. They'd go downtown to the Brass Rail and cruise around that area. It depended on what your flavor was. And you knew. Because if you didn't know, somebody would tell you.

Anybody that's used to anonymous sex, anybody that's used to substance abuse, can go to any town and they will have scored by nightfall.

They just know the -

They just know the routine. It really doesn't change. I could go to [unintelligible]. Not today. Back in the day, I could go to any Greyhound or Trailways bus station, any train. I don't know about the airport, but the bus and the train are definitely cruising spots in any town. And there are designated parks that people go to.

Yeah. You said you haven't - You stopped cruising at a point, probably around, you said thirty years ago.

Probably about twenty-five years ago. Or thirty, yeah, maybe thirty years ago. Because it was - Thirty years ago, I was 35. And it doesn't look cute to be caught by your peers or people you work with or people you know, or in my case, even clients. I learned a long time ago not to screw my clients. That's disaster. One time I was dibbling, dabbling, and I got arrested. The client worked for the courts and she said she knew that wasn't me. But it was definitely me and the charges were not bogus.

Oh no.

As it became dangerous, intensely dangerous, I felt like I've never been - had a major, major episode. I guess they're major episodes. I've taken people home, they've stolen my car. Been actually having sex with somebody and they've asked me for money. The roles have been reversed as I've aged. I know what I've done in my youth and in my prime and I didn't want any of that for myself today.

I've got - I'm not interested in paying for sex. I know you're paying one way or the other, but we used to call people trade. These are people who postured themselves as straight. A trade has no conscience of how they're acting. And could you see one of my neighbors - And I've been, you know, very civically oriented, very active in the community. Could you see me getting beat up by somebody who wants some money? Or wants to come by and three or so in the morning. You know what I'm saying? It's not cute. It's not cute at all because there's somebody -

I live in my parents' house. So they are about - And I live on a long block. So there are about seven original families that knew me when I was a child. The neighborhood's been regentrified and all that kind of stuff. But there are still people, there are still families left. There are two mothers of the neighborhood. You know how you call the older people Mother this, Mother that?

They knew me when I was kind of, like, I guess you could say thug or undesirable. I'm a little bit more accomplished today, so I don't want to get caught cruising. I don't want to be in the police station for cruising or being in the park after dark. And I guess you have to be willing to try to hide behind some statue or something, and it's nothing no worse and it's happened to me several times. The police shining the light on you, the flashlight.

That makes sense, that makes sense. It's not quite what you're doing anymore.

No, not at all.

Right. What part of DC are you in?

I live in Southeast, which is always considered the bad part of town. But it's not out - Well there are - The the better parts of Southeast. But there are no "out" - There never was an "out" gay community or LGBT. Well there is now, you know how young folks are. They give a damn. But all the action took place in Northwest or Southwest or where there were warehouses.

Why do you think that was, is?

Because people couldn't be openly gay and they couldn't probably - couldn't get bars. Those places were safer for people to go to. It was dark, seedy, nobody of any real - Everybody in a space like that could identify with each other. We were all there for the same thing, female, male. If you go into a clean slate, nice nightclub. And there were places like Tracks. I don't know if - I don't know how old you are.

It was before my time but I've heard of it.

Okay. And that was like the beginning of black and white disco era, that type of thing. But prior to that, we danced to straight music, put quarters in the jukebox. I even had a job at a nightclub, it was called the Third World, it used to be called ClubHouse. Before it was the ClubHouse, it was the Third World. And now it's called Food and Friends. They give food to people with HIV and AIDS, cooking classes and all this type of stuff. Prior to that, it was a nightclub, a hole in the wall that everybody went to. I think in New York, it was the Garage, a lot of other places. In Baltimore there were different clubs that you went to.

But clubs. even though they were in dark places, seedy places, that was a step up from the actual cruising. Cruising was done out in the streets and parks, alleys, different things like that. And there were definitely spots that you would go to for cruising.

But then, as more gay bars were starting to open, people could go in there and it was maybe less risk than the parks. Is that what it was?

Yes. I know you've heard of the - something. It doesn't touch my memory. But this is when it was illegal to even patronize or have establishments like that. And the gay people started fighting back. But yes, it was less. But I came along when there was a lot of discrimination amongst gays.

The pants - We called them "pants wearing punks" - hated the drag queens, because they were a step down. I believe that you would find more about sexuality and secrets from the trans community. Just because you have on the dress, doesn't mean that you're the femme.

Most of the time. Because when you give the illusion of femininity but you're packing, the so-called straight male, I think there's - It's a size queen type of thing that still goes on today, not necessarily paying attention to the level of compassion. I'm a little bit more mature now, so you could - No matter what your endowment is, that's kind of later on down the line for me.

Right, that makes sense.

Yeah, and I'm more into - For myself, you know, I am a little afraid of trying to approach people because, in the term that you're using, "cruise" people, because even after I do that, there's still a level of conversation that has to happen in terms of my health. I remember early on with HIV and AIDS that we were having sex with each other, we may have been using a condom but we got the relationship first. I remember a guy telling me, "Wow you want to take everybody with you." And that made me - I heard that.

And remember, I talked to you earlier about listening to learn and learn to listen. So relationships for people who have health issues - I know because of the medicines and things like that, it's a little bit different now. You may get away with it because you can't transmit that particular virus. And then I guess we're dealing with covid-19 and the d-line and all this kind of stuff today, but it's not fair.

I remember talking to someone, he's telling me about being in relationship being in a relationship and using the justification of the medication not transmitting the disease, and they didn't - That's why they didn't tell him. I don't believe that. I think, when nobody tells you, they meant not to tell you. It's just - Here lately, when it's being publicly announced that undetectable viral load on medication, when it's Truvada, different blockers, stuff like that, that's it's safer to not tell and a lot less deceitful.

Yeah, I was wondering during the peak of AIDS starting probably in early, mid 80s, if that had any impact on changing cruising or sexual interactions. But it sounds -

Not a drop. There were older people who were having sex with younger people, but they felt like they couldn't contract AIDS from younger people. That was the thinking. Again, there were people who were obviously dealing with something, and then you'd be scared to touch them. But people who would be honest enough to express - And there were those people who had relationships knowing that the other person - We used to call them positive. It was the time when it was called AIDS, ARC, and HIV. They have taken away the word ARC in the middle.

Yeah. So it didn't really have an impact. I guess there was not a whole lot of information about HIV or AIDS for a while.

Well, I guess probably during Ronald Reagan days when he never - you know, he's always labeled the one who never mentioned the word until the last of his presidency.

But in the gay community, we didn't say LGBT, we knew. We knew all about it. It was a monkey's disease, or a flight attendant. In Africa people I know are calling it skinny, disease. They were from Africa. The gay community is not stupid. If we've been hiding not to get caught and not to be called a sissy or a faggot all these years, you know we are aware, and were aware back in the day. I mean, they used to come get you when you contracted syphilis or gonorrhea. The Department of Health would come pick you up. Or you would tell them who you had sex with and they'd contact you.

I've been - With that in mind, I used to be a sandwich maker. And I know on two occasions - And then when I was shooting drugs, living with two prostitutes and me, I'm a prostitute, the Department of Health while we were getting high, took a hypodermic needle of the blood. It got it right there from all three of us.

And they were two white females, but they lived with me. We, you know, me engaged and all sorts of risky behavior. And then weren't those many other than syphilis, gonorrhea and then herpes came along. I don't know of any other sexually transmitted lots of a man chlamydia and all this other stuff and many more than where I just talk, but you used to get a drip Go to the clinic. With my Walker was in the basement of a church back then. And they had a grant from the Department of Health. And on Saturdays, you could go to and get a shot or some pills whatever you want it. In. Did grow back to your business? There were nightclubs that the eagle and leather Community bringing DC, you've seemed to be familiar with our DC, but they would like to Green Lantern and they were cages

having sex. Yeah. Yeah. It sounds.

Which is the Disco launch of the

eagle

and in my neighborhood they just recently closed down Something happened with the, the eagle over

here. That's what I heard, which is

to say when it's awful, because see, they wouldn't allow people to far, A man was waiting for these to be National uniform and the man that owned the lot across from the eagle. Was waiting for that dilapidated buildings, get more dilapidated before he purchased it. But all Eagles are kind of CV and dark, so the eagle can take an abandoned building and make them into a car. You know, if you came II Haven for the City DC to make money cars for being told because all the stores were

closed,

you know, they didn't open back up to nine in the morning. Most of them comes by 9 o'clock at night. So if you were parked on the lot or the property you are in violation, Amanda Crawford. Their own thing. Property across across from the eagle. The eagle wanted to pay him so their patrons could park didn't happen, you put a big old sensor. but interestingly enough, Because you know, the eagle is an, I didn't know that they were, you know, and they walk down the street from the Metro from train station in quotes. I've never heard of no robberies the eagle donated money had fundraisers to place for abandon use. Call me, Wanda Alston house, where a female in charge Anthony Williams, LGBT deficiency was strangled or kill something, she was killed, but I don't know. She can has she done right? There are no at that I know of maybe mr. Piece because I'm not going to see but then we're gay clumps on over the place, doing disco era, and there was a secret Community before the Disco era and then used to be ball. He's with someone with rent of all French people you knew and the punch is only spiked with something back in with acid, people who dropped acid Peels and traffic acid in the punch. Maybe there wasn't no acid in French, but we call, it was asking if I was so high. I would swear that the DJ was Playing the music based on the moves that I was making. Yeah, What a Feeling, a feeling what? I feel. Yes, that makes me very happy time of my life, like it.

And even when I

listen to

music, I'm

constantly and you have put something on my mind for the remainder of the day. oh, you know, already, you know, all those years looking for, I was looking for affection but and looking for people to be emotionally attached, there are people who have relationships in still cruise, but I think my cruising Was to the success and the detriment

of me

because I finally needed to take ownership and responsibility for my own destination. No other individual was going to be able to make that happen for me, other than me, right? Because I find in the air, I don't know about the LGBT community but in the gay community. So It was all based on

youth. Yeah. Yeah. And but it wasn't without cruising you wouldn't have probably gotten to that place where you realize that you had to look for them without

proving a I would never have even met some of my best friends. I had the opportunities that I've had in life. Without cruising I would have been decried friendships. Because people were not building gay friendships. No, I still see some younger people today. I know they get a I know they Grand-Am is another mamas. And the

grandmothers.

But we don't have that kind of relationship. I don't have many relationships. You're younger. Lgbtq people. Unless they are on the front line.

What do you mean by the front line?

I'm not sure if you're LGBT and that I am I don't want to assume that's Frontline. Okay, are giving I go Sibley hospital has a home or Community Dynamic that's fabulous. I mean they show his face show films from back in the day when women could not be exported with him, a man women couldn't wear. and, They have people to come in and talk about feelings and emotions and different sexual acts that I may think are just low life or slimy. It's not a problem today. It's a part of sexuality.

I don't know, Sibley hospital did that. I'll have

to it was into that. It just to into her name is Clara, she's the nurse practitioner there. He's got an ass. But they have a home component. He said, I travel from I live across the street from PG camp and I can travel there.

That's a bit of a

a a a a a canoe. Yes. But it's worth it. You know, we work with is not the only they were embracing. Many years ago of the gay community that everybody tends to be inclusive of Grants inclusive. Right there and lots of lgbtq Dynamics. That are popping up. And there are a lot of people my age who are not interested, they're not interested in talking to you like the guy that referred me. He is very active. Yeah, and he keeps me abreast. I want to be a breast. I don't believe my health allowed me to be his active, so I perceived a lot with caution but that subject your subject matter today has been very refreshing because cruising always had such a dirty twist to it right, you know, like a dirty Secret. You know, I look dirty activity

and

here. Because of this conversation, you have made me see the benefit of my cruising that I never thought

about.

In the terms of cruising,

huh? I'm glad to hear that. Yeah. Yeah,

you know because I'm in you know at my at my posture in life and my age there are moments of reflection especially when the right type of music comes

on

You know, so it really makes me dig very deep. And makes me appreciate. Where I'm at today,

okay? Yeah. No. I as a identify as trans and queer. Mainly. And so,

they're so, yeah. Yeah. So there's so much

history that I don't know about him, but I've been trying to learn about because I don't want people like you, people your age and older even have lived through so much in done so much to get us where we are now. I'll provide generation. And so I just want to learn as much as I can and talk to people like you because I think it's so important. And I want to learn about, you know, like my community's history and keep that in mind. I'm going forward in

my overview of our films. Yeah, yeah documentaries. Yeah. And I think that simply has the best in DC. There is a LGBT A component for

seniors,

silver circles, when you hear the word silver, you know, it applies to you. Yeah. Dating I just called teeny the cruising sites but they're dating sites

for silver people is Adam for Adam, one of those.

I think Adam fan Is non generational. I think they respond the young people as well as older

people, okay,

but you've got to have the youth. Got to look like you. Yeah.

Both sigh both parts of it, both sides. Yeah. Well that was everything that I had. Is there anything else you wanted to talk about her? Mention that wasn't already brought up.

You know you've covered everything. Yeah, never miss this.

Okay. Okay,

you know and I I'm very impressed with younger

people who

want to embrace people my age

and

it helps us really helps me not to feel like a throwing my husband. Sure. I like to feel Cameron and age-appropriate. And there is a spot. For people like me. Today in 2020 month, there was the time people here. You know, I remember people people who knew me when I was a child never wanted to come out, didn't come up. Got married, all this kind of stuff. I think, probably sometimes I get a little, I'm glad things to happen when they happen because there's a fear of older people in nursing homes, especially people my age of being found out freighter harm. There was a arrogance, still. Today, people this say, I may want to use the name darling, My real name is Donald, but I've got a long, fingernails, a nice way, lipstick completely shaved. And I've got room joint, I'm sitting in your desk. You know, my name is Donald but I'm telling you, my name is Darlene, why? And you are in public service, why are you addressing me as Donna to hurt my feelings and make me feel my ass resting is the agency not too far from here. there's always some younger guys, they were throwing rocks at the trans, girl, the agency is looking out the window laughing and then when you asking, So there needs to be more education in the workforce. There needs to be more housing. For LGBT seniors. I'm not talking about your major cities. Something about in rural

areas. Oh yeah totally

you know when you can easily be dismissed or you know, not even thought

about

So, I am honor. I like stuff like

this.

You know, everybody likes to tell this story. Absolutely, absolutely the time. And, you know, no run-of-the-mill really boosted my self esteem made. You actually shown me again. As other people have done that, I have down. Yeah, and my experience in like as value. I was that a Narcotics Anonymous meeting

yesterday.

So it has get when you go to support groups and different things that gives you a little boost and then gives me a little that gave me a little boost and as I'm talking to you, it has reinforced, you know, I have worked on myself and I'm not ashamed of myself in every episode, every facet. And I've talked to you about today, There may be somebody who is living the life that I live and can't get

out,

you know, in a stuck. So that's probably all I want to add some strong. Don't talk about you on the phone and this

In your stories and learning. Absolutely. So, so much from you. So thank you.

Okay. And do you? Well, I ever see this interview or is this something? Yes, gonna connect with me and let me know once the project is complete, right? Yeah, see I.

Okay, so, I will transcribe it all and then I'll send it back over to you to look over and make sure I got everything right and then I will So once you okay, terrific, I make any edits and we'll go into an archive and I'll send you a copy as well. So I can send you that over email or like a flash drive.

Okay, whatever, whatever version you prefer. So then you have a

copy of it as well.

Oh, I like that. Yeah, I like that.

Yeah. So you'll have it, okay? Yeah, so as when I get this when I get it done, I will send it over to you to make sure it's all good to go and then also send you a link to it online. So you'll have that.

Well, I appreciate that. Yeah. Mom interview I had it was titled secrets of a no more and it was very, they only covered about a paragraph. Of My Success but the whole story was based on my dark side and I had a hard time getting rid of that unconvincing Ani are our time getting rid of it. So I'm it's very before that you are a breath of fresh air. I haven't talked about that as in-depth as I've talked to

them. Yeah, thank you for sharing all of that, as well as 60 fun. But I'm gonna hang

up. Because, you know, if you say something, then I respond and I'm full of conversation. All good, all good.

Yeah, as well. Thank you, Donald goodbye.