Kirsti Lattu Interview, July 22, 2021

This is the July 22nd, 2021 interview of Kirsti Lattu by Audrey Barnett for the Humanities Truck Community archive, recorded on zoom in both of our respective homes. Thank you so much Kirsti for being here today. I would like to ask you first if I have permission to record this interview?

Yes.

Thank you. Would you also be able to tell us what your name is and spell it?

Sure, Kirsti Lattu. K-I-R-S-T-I my last name is L-A-T-T-U.

Would you mind telling us a bit about yourself? For example where you currently reside, a little bit possibly about what you do, or where how you became connected to us?

Sure. Well, currently I live in the Hudson Valley in New York. Interestingly enough, my dad's a DC native and my mom's an Alexandria native. They were both born in DC. So I traveled around a lot when I was much younger, but I came to reside in DC early, I guess, middle school.

How do I explain how I got from there to here? Okay, I think we'll talk about this a bit more later on, but I, I left DC actually to work internationally and so over the last, I guess we're talking nearly 30 years now I worked in public health, human rights, and international humanitarian assistance.

And while I've lived in DC a little bit on and off, really the Hudson Valley has been my home for almost 20 years now. Much of the work that I've done since then has been International but HIV/AIDS was a very important theme which ties together different professional things that I have done since living in DC. So that was a very formative chapter for me.

Thank you. And I believe, if I heard you correctly, you said you moved to DC in Middle School?

Alexandria. Yeah, so the DC area. Yep.

So would you mind clarifying for us how long you lived in the DC area, like approximately from what age to what age? And what areas also you lived in, if you moved around.

Sure. Well, I went to middle school and high school in Alexandria. I went to college down in Fredericksburg. It was Mary Washington College then and now it's the University of Mary Washington. Then interestingly enough, I moved up to Provincetown right when I graduated from college and that would have been 1988. So I kind of went from a very small town to an even smaller town, but a very comfortable place to be if one identified as queer or whatever. It was certainly a very permissive community and I think it continues to be one.

Following that, I moved to DC where I lived in both Shaw and Mount Pleasant. Again, as a young person starting out in my career, I was looking for both a more permissive environment but also opportunities for work. I have lived there since then, but maybe for your purposes or for thinking about the context of talking about being an activist in DC, I was there as an adult from late 1988 through mid-1991, which is actually when I left to join the Peace Corps.

Okay, cool. So you kind of contextualize this a bit with your parents being from the area and whatnot, but what prompted your move to DC after college?

Sure, economic opportunity, closer to jobs that I wanted, which is on par with a more permissive environment. You know bright lights, big city. It was wonderful to hop across the border of the Potomac and be in the city.

Yeah, that makes sense. So I'm curious now going into kind of the early years of HIV/AIDS when did you first hear about this disease? Was there a particular story that had an impact on you or possibly somebody you knew personally?

When I was in college, I was definitely living in the gay community then and it was something that I would certainly hear about. There was amongst my friend group a growing concern and fear of this disease, that we were hearing more and more about. Not very good factual information. So it felt real and concerning.

I was also in a leadership role on campus as a resident advisor. I reached out to Whitman Walker clinic and I said, are you offering any sort of programs or how can I learn and informed myself? I actually came up while I was still a college student, I got a long weekend, and did their HIV/AIDS hotline training. So that was another way that I was connected and better informed.

From there I was linked into another community where concern was omnipresent because it was very real. I did start meeting people then who were infected with HIV/AIDS. The concerns became much more personal because it was in my friend group at that point.

So at that point, I started to know quite a number of people that were HIV-positive, and also just that fear and that concern and real worries about stigma was a serious challenge and a barrier back then. I think internalized homophobia as well as being able to reach out and get information was a real challenge, depending on who you were and your comfort level.

My first professional job was with the Peace Corps and I remember on the day that I started I actually had to go ask permission to leave because I had to go to a funeral of a young friend. The funeral was within walking distance from downtown DC and he was probably 25 or 26. He was very young and so it became a very personal issue.

I'm really curious because I know initially, my question, I asked if there was possibly a first story that you've heard and I want to contextualize that a bit further. Like the new stories that you were hearing or the media at large you were consuming about HIV/AIDS, if there was any at all, I'm not totally sure what was in your purview. How are those possibly contrasted or compared to the many personal stories you knew and were experiencing yourself?

One of the challenges that I remember very clearly was the concern that there were good people and bad people getting infected. There was kind of a good category and a bad category. The bad category of people being gay men particularly and IV drug users. That was very troubling to me because it's a disease.

I knew from being out in bars and again through my friend circle that it was real and it was affecting people who at that point when I just was hearing about it, were just outside of my friend circle. There was a lot of fear and not enough information about what can I do to protect myself. So that's kind of a roundabout way of answering your question but what really motivated me was that my friends perceived it as real and were afraid and that was very troubling to me.

Yeah, that makes sense. I'm curious then if that was also a motivator for your activism. I know you noted hotline training and also getting in touch with Whitman Walker, but I would love to know how you first kind became involved in HIV AIDS activism and through what avenues that occurred.

Whitman Walker was and is an amazing institution. That was really right at the front lines of how do we confront this disease with information and providing care and support. So as soon as I did the hotline training, I became involved with people who were actually at the front lines of fighting this disease.

I first lived in Shaw and then I moved into a lesbian, bisexual group home up in Mount Pleasant. There were five or six women living there. It was a wonderful house of diverse interests and a lot of complements and I'd say all of us were activists in a range of different ways.

There was quite a range of different issues at that point that were important to me and I feel like as I became a part of this broader community, I learned a lot more about being an activist and what my opportunities were there and I very quickly found OUT! or OUT! found me. Ironically I don't remember exactly a first meeting of OUT! other than when I heard about OUT!, I'm sure from friends who were involved with it that I met through this community in Mount Pleasant and through my group home.

It felt like a wonderful place to be because Whitman Walker was absolutely leading the efforts to provide care and support and identify advocacy issues and very tangibly taking on policy rules, etc, but it wasn't moving fast enough. One of the things that was really incredibly frustrating and infuriating at that point, which was many many things, was the District of Columbia actually had a bunch of AIDs services.

That was actually one of the fun, community, visible activism efforts that we did was standing outside of the district building holding up signs saying we're tracking your spending on the AIDS in-service budget and it's not being spent. It was a regular visible presence during rush hour traffic with press releases to The Washington Post and the Blade and other papers to let them know we'd be there and quite often we would get pretty good press coverage.

We tried to be outraged, but entertaining as well, in saying we are here and we're monitoring and we're not going away and our friends are dying and this is personal. It's personal, it's political, and it's not good enough. We are standing here bearing witness, and chanting, and making a bus as well.

There were a lot of issues at that point. I mean OUT! had a very unique role because it really was the activist group working on HIV/AIDS, but not limited to HIV/AIDS. We also were out in bars at night doing safer sex discussions. We did a series of very practical, safe sex posts on telephone poles which were fairly graphic.

I've seen those before.

You know, we were talking about safer sex and people would hold up a banana. It's like, well sure intellectually you can probably wrap your mind around that, but sometimes it's helpful to actually talk about what do you really need? What should I be doing? And a lot of the safer sex materials were towards men, you know, or men having sex with women who might have been exposed, however, for lesbians there wasn't a lot out there.

So it was like let's talk about safer sex and let's talk about risk and let's talk about testing for yourself so you know your status and let's talk about having these very difficult conversations with intimate partners. So OUT! brought the practical let's educate our community and let's educate ourselves and let's arm ourselves with that. But it also took that activism out into the street and into our broader community.

I really liked what you noted about this balance between being outraged and entertaining and I'm curious if you could expand more on what a meeting at OUT! would have looked like back when you guys were an active organization and what kind of planning went into these initiatives. Like how did you guys decide to you know, make this, what at the time was labeled as quite provocative, poster that I know you guys put on the Metro or put on the sidewalk and different different places like that. I would love to hear more about that process of discussing and planning initiatives or what a meeting might look like.

The wonderful thing about OUT! meetings, which could run very long, was it was a creative bunch of relatively young people, you know people their twenties, maybe early thirties. Who came to OUT! There were a number of folks in the group who were what I would call professional queers, in terms of they had a day-job working on issues that were directly relevant, but that was more of a day-job than OUT!.

There was this crossroads of really exciting ideas and real frustrations. And I was thinking about this just sort of last night before we met today, I was thinking about some of the concerns, that the issues that came up through this wonderful group of people that was sort of always percolating ideas of what should we be doing or what could we do and what would happen in fact or what would you even just bring attention to? Issues of concern? HIV/AIDS was was a central theme but there were others as well there. There certainly was violence against the gay and lesbian community. At that point there were concerns about youth in schools feeling marginalized and stuck.

There was the Corcoran Art Gallery decided not to show the Robert Mapplethorpe exhibit at that point and that was actually an effort broader than OUT! that brought together a range of different activists where we simply showed the Mapplethorpe exhibit on the outside of the Corcoran since they wouldn't show it on the inside. Totally unacceptable, but a brilliant solution to the problem, it showed on the outside.

So you asked about process, I hope that gives you some sort of an idea about some of the many different issues and creative ideas that were coming up. Again it was a very, very different time period. There was a lot of stigma around HIV AIDS. There was a lot of internalized homophobia as well. We were just in a very different time period than we are now and it's funny, I feel like there have been really significant changes since then, and a lot of folks at that point were still not necessarily out with their families or otherwise, so it was just a very different time.

What was really wonderful about OUT! something that was really informative for me is that decisions were made by consensus. Which was a really kind of evolved path to take because what it meant is we did have really, really long meetings, ideas would come up, we would discuss them, we would look at them from different perspectives, pros, and cons. But at the end of the night, or the end of whatever the decision-making period was, who didn't all agree this was a good action or activity to go forward with, we did it as OUT!

When we did move forward, everybody had had a say and we had looked at it from different perspectives and some people would not necessarily completely agree, but they would agree to yield and move forward with the particular idea. Having to really discuss and defend and yield and work together with that degree of give and take when we made a decision, it was a form of foundation, there was genuine by and to move forward.

I've seen other groups and workplaces and other places try to emulate this consensus approach and it's a much harder process. It's much easier to go to a vote. But when you go to vote, some people are going to lose, you know, they're going to be for and against and consensus was can we reach a different kind of decision where w are all in or someone yields either for the greater good or for the fun of the idea or because it's just a good idea and that's just got to move forward.

That's super interesting and I know you noted, well actually I'm not entirely sure if this is what you meant, but do you think it's been executed well within other organizations. Or I guess let me clarify, what I'm more interested in asking is whether you noticed this consensus decision-making within other organizations you've worked with or rather you see it as something that really is unique to OUT? OUT!

OUT!

OUT! was really where I put my energy and there were offshoots where members of OUT! started other kinds of efforts, which were different. For example, Gay and Lesbians Opposing Violence Everywhere, called GLOVE. There was a real concern about violence against our community and DC, particularly both violence and could you feel comfortable with calling the police. Also violence potentially by the police as well.

Sorry I'm off track. OUT! was where I was. That was where I was an activist and there were many other groups and efforts going on. There was a lot of activism around homelessness at that point as well. But really OUT! is where I participated that was my intersection and then having a broader network of activists around me.

So, and in my professional and personal experiences later, making decisions by consensus was highly evolved. Again, I can only speak to my experience with OUT! but my understanding was that it was very unique and having to give and take and really negotiate and compromise forged some really profound friendships and community that I think gave OUT! good credibility, as it was phenomenal to be a part of. Let me stop there because I'm starting to get into things that I think are kind of extraneous.

I would love to hear more about your community within OUT! because I can imagine as you noted, it's really long meetings, everyone is contributing to the conversation, people don't always agree. Also just given the nature of your activism like it's incredibly personal. You all are advocating on your own like behalfs. It's something that was super prominent within my interview with Amelie. It's not an us versus them, we are advocating for ourselves.

And so, I imagine organization kind of becomes your social life as well. And so, I would love for you to speak more about your relationships with the people within the organization. And, and I guess, you know clarifying, did you spend a lot of time with these people? Like what were your relationships with one another? And how were you able to organize successfully together?

That's a really, really important point. We really did look at it as it's an us. I think that was really important given that some of women's issues and lesbian issues and issues facing gay men are, you know, being together. You know, there was a range of different personal interests and personal passions at that time, and we couldn't do them all. This is why HIV/AIDS was a very, very central theme and it was a we. We are going to feel out and proud, and put these issues out on the street, in a range of different ways.

So yes, I spent a fair amount of time with people and had some really profound friendships, some of which still exist today. I've traveled around a lot, and I think that part of my no longer being in touch with some of the folks that were in OUT! is just because since then I've worked in 25 countries and really my focus has been international. I feel very confident that any number of the folks from OUT! if I were to run into them now we would just sit down and catch up. Because it was such a profound friendship and relationship and shared period that I think transcends time and distance.

I think, part of that was really due to consensus building. That was a really, as I said, involved way to make decisions as a group which is never easy. And when you would go to an OUT! meeting, it wasn't like you could say oh, it's going to be from 7 to 9. It was like, oh, it's gonna be from 7 until whenever we're done. And hope I can hang on till then.

Yeah, I can imagine like if you're going to engage in that kind of like consensus-driven decision making, I imagine, it would be hard to put a time limit on meetings or it makes sense that they would end up being really long conversations. So I'm curious if carework was something that you guys talked about or would you say apart of your activism at OUT? What what ways did you guys care for one another and make sure that people were doing okay?

Obviously, this kind of work is very all-consuming and takes not only a vast emotional toll, but a physical toll as well. And I'm assuming members who maybe were dealing with HIV/AIDS, like, who were disabled somewhat, like, how you guys all cared for one another and make sure you were doing okay with these pretty taxing actions and meetings. Also, I imagine really gratifying and am important source of community as well, but I'm curious how you achieve that balance or whether that was something centered at all in your activism there.

You know, we talk a lot about self-care now. Certainly then Whitman Walker was doing a phenomenal job and I'm sure probably is of providing care and support and having the assistance of a hotline, but I personally didn't think about self-care as much. I think because we had such a wonderful sense of community and awareness of each other and sort of give-and-take or how can I lend a hand even to other efforts going on?

The fact that we were out in the community doing outreach with facts about safer sex, a night, to provide facts and engage people and have conversations that they might not necessarily feel comfortable calling a hotline or talking to a neighbor or a friend about. But if you're sitting in a bar, um, what's this? What are you doing? What do you know? You want to talk?

That feeling of extended community and that we were all in this together was very fulfilling and very sustaining and very wonderful so maybe that sense of being a practical, proactive part of a community that was facing some real challenges and needed that sense of community was maybe self-care for us.

Yeah, that makes sense. And I realized with my last question, it's possible, I put a few words in your mouth, so I want to give you the space to clarify. Like did it feel really rewarding being a part of this organization? Did it feel physically or emotionally taxing at times or both? Like I'm curious if you could even talk a little bit about the emotions you experienced those years of organizing and devoting a lot of time to OUT!.

HIV/AIDS and some of the other issues we were facing, again is was a very different time period, where there was a very clear and present risk and danger. It was a really important time to have that sense of solidarity and activism within our community and to take action in ways that we could. I'm not sure if I understand what your question is. I feel like I'm running off on a tangent. Try again please.

Yeah, of course. I guess when I initially asked about how organizers within OUT! cared for one another, I felt like maybe I was making an assumption when I talked about both an emotional and physical toll. I also noted how I'm sure at times it was obviously very rewarding and gratifying being in a organization such as OUT! and you noted also how that community in a lot of ways fueled you guys.

And so I just didn't want to make any assumptions about that balance between the two. I didn't want to make an assumption about an emotional or physical toll or just how felt about that experience. And so I wanted to see if you if you want to clarify at all on whether it exhausting these years of being an activist? Like what did that feel like for you? Was it more rewarding? I'm just curious. I could assume that it would be like a balance, but I wanted your clarification on what that felt like for you personally. If that makes more sense.

Sure. Thank you. I'd say empowering, yeah, empowering because none of us were victims and none of us were going to be victimized, there were a lot of issues. You had a lot of opportunities to raise very concrete and practical issues and highlight how this community was being excluded, even from drug trials and decision-making, and was in a lot of ways marginalized. And meanwhile, this was a community that was dying of AIDS.

What else? But this was a community that was profoundly experiencing HIV and AIDS. And so, they're having that outlet. So, try to take action and taking action very concretely in some ways and that sense of community was empowering and it was very tight-knit. There was a lot of support across friendships and just within the broader community of give and take and can I lend you a hand, is there something I can do for you outside of just being an activist together?

Thank you. Yeah, I appreciate the clarification. It seems as if largely your queer community in DC revolved around OUT!, but I wanted to know if there were any other organizations, spaces, events, people which served as a focal point of this community for you or in whatever ways you connected to queer people in DC, beyond OUT!.

Sure, as I mentioned earlier there was an effort to start GLOVE, Gay and Lesbians Opposing Violence and that was a really important offshoot to look at a specific set of issues. Other than some nighttime outreach and efforts to be in spaces where there were concerns about the potential for violence, one of the efforts was to train police cadets in the DC police force.

We trained them on gays and lesbians, on HIV/AIDS, and the queer community, and that we have a right to all the protections and when we call for help, we're calling for help. We're taxpaying citizens and we need your help. And that effort to try to proactively destigmatize and included in police cadets training was again, very empowering and something that I was involved with, in a limited way. But it was a very timely effort and I was really glad to do what I could while I was still in the U.S.

There was Sexual Minority Youth Assistance League or SMILE, which also was really looking at younger LGBTQ youth still in schools and providing kind of a safe place for them to come and talk and be in community, not isolated or stigmatized, but valued and create that safe space.

I wasn't super involved with that but I think it was a really important effort and I certainly made an effort to be supportive and go to different events when I could and show my support and say there's light at the end of the tunnel and it's awfully nice to be an adult or whatever and there's a big community out here for you, so you're not alone. Yeah, so there were a lot of different intersections.

I would love to hear about a particular action, whether like with OUT! or GLOVE, or any organization. I know you said OUT! , was your organization you spent the most time with, so I'm assuming you would maybe recall from your time with them, but any particular action that really stands out or but maybe you draw upon today or just think of when you reflect on your time with HIV/AIDS activism in DC?

Wow, there were so many creative things that we did, and I think I've given you two great examples, which really stick with me. One was the being present outside of the main DC government building quite regularly and holding visibly, physically holding them accountable for not spending a budget when there was a budget for HIV/AIDS services. That's really important and having worked as a civil servant later, I always remember the accountability piece and it's just really important to me. That's something that stuck with me.

The absolute frustration that the Corcoran wouldn't show the Mapplethorpe exhibit and the stigmatization around that and the brilliant idea of, and I don't know whose it was, but let's go ahead and show it anyway. Absolutely great. That you cannot shut out this community. You can't decide to say this art is X or Y, or whatever your criticism of it was. I just thought that was brilliant. Maybe someday we'll make these happen again. Hopefully, we won't need to.

Yeah, as I mentioned we did a whole bunch of holstering of safer sex and all of the nighttime outreach as well one-on-one more than you know. Loud crowd out here, face out in the streets, but it was through we're here and we're part of your community and this is a real danger. Let's talk about it. I'm your neighbor. I'm your friend. Let's talk about it, it's a hard conversation. But a really life saving one to have at this point. There were a whole bunch of things that we did but those are ones that strike me as actions I particularly liked.

Well, I had this opportunity to go and see Amelie's organizing papers at AU and so a few of the things you've noted, are familiar to me. I saw within pamphlets or different notes for meetings and things like that. Something that stood out to me previously in our conversation is you noted you did a lot of international work after your time with OUT! and within your life you've done a lot of international work and something I did note within one OUT! handbook, was very was a page creating connections between the issues that OUT! was advocating for and also what was going on in the late 1980s in Central America.

And so, I'm curious given you have spent so much time abroad in your life, if you were making international connections, like within OUT! or whether, in your travels, you continue to make connections. If In fact, that wasn't present when you were actually with OUT!, but I would love to hear more about maybe connections you've made either when you were still with OUT!, or later when you were traveling and doing more International work.

When I was an activist with OUT! my focus was really DC and the DC Metro area. My interest in learning from what else was going on stemmed from my girlfriend at the time who worked for the National AIDS Network. This organization was really trying to bring together institutional awareness of the many different grassroots efforts to provide care and support and educate about HIV/AIDS nationally. So that was really helpful.

Again, as I said, the number of folks that were involved either directly or through our broader community were working on a range of these issues. There was a really good cross-fertilization of what are people doing in other communities about specific issues. Anyway, my focus really was domestic at that point and very specifically, the DC area.

International really came later when I joined the Peace Corps. I was a volunteer working as a [couldn't understand] Health Center. I was in a country in central Africa, where HIV/AIDS was a really significant risk. I also worked for a phenomenal grassroots organization called the AIDS service organization and Uganda Acaso [is this correct?]. The founder was one of my heroes, her husband was HIV positive, died of AIDS and she just said, this is not good enough. We have to have more, more information, more services, and she started a whole movement. I worked on that project. I was officially under Doctors Without Borders, Menzel [not sure if this is correct] Frontier. I was part of their contributions to that group. I did a lot of work with their support and traditional healers.

Yeah, I worked in a number of countries on a number of projects and really the three central themes throughout my life since OUT! to now have really been public health, human rights, and humanitarian assistance. I've worked on HIV/AIDS at a policy level and a community level. I went back and did a masters in Public Health, I've always seen a lot of the human rights issues as really interlinked. In exchange, you can't separate them from the disease or the people who might be experiencing that or other diseases in terms of the stigma. A lot of that comes from OUT! as well, as I think a real commitment to community wherever you are. So it was very informative and it's carried forward to the last three-plus decades.

I would love to hear more about the way in which it's been formative or how maybe you've found yourself drawing upon your experiences with OUT!. I would love to hear more about that or if there's been any, like particular instance, in which you've felt like, wow this was really useful or thinking back to your time with OUT!. I'm curious the ways it continues to pop up in your life.

One of the things that we were talking about was process and this idea of consensus. As I've said, I've worked with different groups where they tried to operate by consensus to some degree and quite often they would move to a vote. And I'm not going to go into specific details of like what and where and when, but the fact that OUT! actually operated by consensus.

Still, it was kind of a pinnacle of how can you make the decisions in an authentic way without excluding voices, or excluding people. It was very inclusive and very genuine, and also very difficult. It really required a commitment. And I should say, even now, I'm kind of looking for workplaces that actually apply this and I don't know if that's possible.

Awesome. Since we have a few more minutes, I would also just love to know more about what DC was like when you arrived here in late 1988 through 1991 when you were living within a group home. I'm really curious, just what a typical day in your life would have looked like back then. Like what neighborhoods you would have been in? Would you have been taking public transport or walking or biking? I would love to just get a little glimpse into what your life would have looked like back then within DC.

Probably very much the way yours does. The ways that it probably was different were probably quite subtle and deep seated. It was a little bit more affordable and I think, you know, the rising property values probably really changed the landscape of the city. When I lived in Mount Pleasant at that point, right around Mount Pleasant, was a very large El Salvadorian community and a very mixed neighborhood. Absolutely what was wonderful was I could walk to work. I worked near K Street and 19th. And so it was a good walk, but definitely could walk. Sometimes took the bus.

We had a number of bars that existed at that point. Tracks being one of the best-known which was down in Southwest. It was a big huge old warehouse on the wrong side of the tracks, quite literally. I don't believe that has existed for many years. There are a number of other sort of hole in the wall bars. We had the Blade as well, which was a newspaper. It was wonderful to have an independent newspaper that provided information, facts, analysis of what's going on in the community.

High heel race on 16th Street [is this correct?]. When you say how is it different, is there anything more specific? Because the National Zoo and probably alot of the landscape and features are still the same, but I do imagine that the high property values, really changed the diversity and I imagine it's driven some people out.

Well totally, and I was really intrigued when you initially said that you had lived in Mount Pleasant because I've had this amazing opportunity the past semester to take like a community-based learning course and a lot of what we've been learning has been about Latine communities in DC and Mount Pleasant has been central to that and has been the place we've spent most time learning about. And so, of course, the large Salvadorian population is something that came up and was a significant part of my class. It's also largely why I was so intrigued when I saw within the pamphlet connections drawn between Central America, and why they were suddenly such an influx of Central American immigrants and then also like LGBTQ organizing and activism.

And so, I am curious given DC is a city known for its racial segregation and class inequality if that was how you experienced your neighborhood. If you interacted with your Salvadorian neighbors, or if you feel like the gay community was able to come across those boundaries at all. I'm curious just what your impression or experiences were living in this pretty diverse neighborhood.

I think about that was a real challenge because it was a community that was really, in my opinion, marginalized. And new immigrants, probably legal and illegal status, had to work very, very hard just to get by and survive. So, probably having the time to participate in an organization such as OUT! might've been a luxury in some ways to have that time to devote to it. That's kind of funny, I had not thought of it that way. Definitely, there were intersections with different communities, like Salvadorians.

In another group house that I lived in when I was back in DC, after I had came back from Peace Corps, one of my housemates was very involved in literacy and working directly in that community and ones who are a native spanish speaker, which I think brought me a lot more in contact with different efforts going on in that community. When I was OUT! I was just less involved and I think there was somewhat less participation probably for a range of reasons.

with OUT! At that point, DC was also sixty percent African-American and Marion Barry was the mayor and I feel like there was a farely diverse participation in OUT! , but I do think it was more predominantly white, but not at all exclusively. And again it was kind of a rainbow coalition and kind of good open doors with different groups.

I'm trying to think back to be more concrete, but I really, I would have to actually do some research at this point to refresh my memory, it's been a long time. And we definitely have people within the group that I felt like, again that was their community and they were human placeholders or gates for sharing of information and reaching other communities as well.

Thank you. That was really informative and was totally what I was looking for and what I was interested in learning about. So it's very Illuminating to get your perspective at least on this neighborhood and what living there was like at the time. I recognize we are approaching about an hour into our interview. So I also wanted to check-in and see if there was anything you particularly wanted to spotlight.

Also, I believe you just noted this was something maybe you hadn't thought too much about so certainly if like anything were to pop into your mind after the fact, you could always reach out. I am also really excited at the possibility of meeting up in person and continuing this conversation in person. That would be very cool. But yes, if there's anything else you would really like to bring to our attention, please do so.

I would love to come back. It was such a very very different time period. There was just such a lot of stigma and that was always a barrier and a challenge they you were working against, internalized and external.

I think it's really wonderful having that measuring stick to say, there's a lot that still needs to change, but that was a time period when there were, if I remember correctly, sodomy laws in 25 states, which was something that we took on as OUT! to challenge locally.

As well, the idea of legal marriage, that just didn't exist. So now the fact that within the federal government and then many states, you know, it's now no longer even a discussion. Of course, it's legal. Why wouldn't it be legal? Back then that was an uphill battle.

It was a very different time and HIV/AIDS just highlighted so many of the challenges that we were struggling with and facing at that time. And then also it was definitely ugly and negatively reinforced a lot of those statements that were so prevalent. So, things can change for the positive and activism is pretty important as we're learning now in so many different ways. Activism is certainly alive.

Yeah, and just quickly as I know you touched on stigma and that's somethingwe haven't talked as much about in this interview. But I know you said what initially drew you to DC was that it's a more cosmopolitan area, there's more of a queer community here, it's more permissive, but I'm curious because clearly stigma was a huge part of your organizing efforts, how it infiltrated then your personal life in DC or whether you felt protected or you had a strong community. I'm curious what your experiences with stigma were like as a queer person living in DC and the late 1980s early 1990s.

I had a really strong sense of humility, and a strong sense of self, and a wonderful family that were very supportive. I don't even know what their opinions might have been, but certainly, my parents were supportive in this kind of, we love you, we don't understand everything, we love you, bring her home for dinner anyway.

So no, I feel like I was extremely lucky but what it did teach me is that my experience was unique and unusual since a lot of my friends came to directly DC to seek a safe place, to be who they were. Whereas for me, I wasn't fleeing something, I was just seeking more of. To be better connected to a community and closer to work as well. I think I'm very, very lucky and I've always been very lucky.

And it did actually even like the marriage, whether or not gays or lesbians could get married. Was something that I felt very uncomfortable until everybody could get married, I feel like for many years, I should not get married. I don't know how to explain that but a lot has changed since then, for the better.

And there's still a lot of other looming issues, but it was a good place for me to be and it was a high bar in terms of living in a community and having a lot of give-and-take and compassion for people around you and a sense of connectedness. And as you said a "we", a "we" and learning from what others were experiencing, which was different in some ways than what I was experiencing, and then how could we change that. We.

Well, thank you so much. It's really just amazing to hear that DC did provide this community for you. It certainly resonates with a lot of other people I've talked to and their narratives. I've just been really enjoying getting to know the queer community in DC better. It's really cool knowing my city's history and thank you so much for sharing your own personal history. It's really appreciated.

Thank you, Audrey. Thanks for the chance to reflect on that amazing period. Very amazing and difficult period and wonderful.

As I said, certainly, let me know when you are in DC because our team would love to invite you to the university to have a second conversation as well. That would be really great because obviously there's so much to flesh out here and an hour never does the person's history justice, but it was nice at least to have this introduction and I do feel as though I learned a lot talking but certainly if you're back in DC anytime soon, it would be awesome to continue this conversation.

Thank you. I'll stay in touch.

Yeah, and I'll definitely reach out because I will transcribe this interview and so, before the video or transcription gets published to our online archive I'll send that along and have you look everything over and get your approval before anything is published anywhere or accessible to the public.

Great. Thank you very much for your time.

Yeah, thank you so much for your time. Have a really great day.

Thanks. You too. Bye.