Karen Wilson-Ama'Echefu Interview, October 17, 2020

INDEXED CLIP TIME: 00:00:02.04 --> 00:01:22.00 SEGMENT SYNOPSIS: Sajel Swartz interviews Karen Wilson-Ama'Echefu at Malcolm X Park for Indigenous Peoples' Day. In this clip, Karen Wilson-Ama'Echefu introduces herself and explains the meaning of her name. SUBJECTS: name; family

Nnelolo Karen Marguerite Wilson-Ama'Echefu.

That's a beautiful name.

I really like it. It grew, you know. Nnelolo is "mother of queens."

That's a powerful name.

And it's true, too. Karen, which I didn't like for a long time, this is the one my mother gave me. It means pure, purity. Marguerite means daisy. Wilson, I'll leave that one for last. Ama is short for a Amajoyi, which is my husband's name which is "my community has gathered around me." Echefu is a shortened form EchefunaChukwu, which means "do not forget God." Wilson was my father's name I've had it longer than anyone and I have no idea what it means.

It's like, I keep saying, "tomorrow."

I know every single other piece of this!

I kind of chose the rest of it but I didn't choose that.

Your name is beautiful, it tells a story.

I'm a storyteller.

That's our favorite, so I'm excited to interview you more. So you introduced yourself. I just want to confirm with you that I have your permission to record the interview?

Yes.

INDEXED CLIP TIME: 00:01:22.20 --> 00:01:47.18 SEGMENT SYNOPSIS: In this clip, Karen Wilson-Ama'Echefu says that she came to the event to sing. SUBJECTS: Black Workers Center Chorus; Lucy Murphy; Indigenous Peoples Day

Wonderful, okay. So what brought you to this event today?

I came to sing with Lucy Murphy who I think is one of the great cultural treasures of Washington, DC. Cultural and historical treasures of Washington, DC. And I came to sing with the Black Workers Center Chorus to celebrate Indigenous Peoples Day.

That's wonderful, all right.

INDEXED CLIP TIME: 00:01:45.21 --> 00:08:21.19 SEGMENT SYNOPSIS: In this clip, Karen Wilson-Ama'Echefu speaks about personal and historical connections between African American and Indigenous Peoples. SUBJECTS: Ojibwe; Rebecca Monte Kugel; US history; Trail of Tears; African American; Indigenous; Cherokee; family; storytelling; University of California Riverside

Thinking about the American Indian Movement, would you say that you have been involved with AIM, The American Indian Movement?

No, I can't say that.

What I can say is that I'm a historian of African Diaspora in the United States. I understand that African peoples and so called Indian peoples met and enjoyed each other and themselves because they were very close in many of their traditions, the things they understood, their love of the land and their reverence for elders, and the importance of spirit. All of these things were important to both groups and they met on that basis.

I can also say that when I was in graduate school attempting to finish a PhD in U. S. history, which eventually did get done, the person who did triage for me was an Ojibwe woman who remains someone so precious to my heart, Rebecca Monte Kugel. She is an Ojibwe American historian, and she's taught me many things. One of them being pumpkin pie belongs to Indigenous people! I said no for many years because I said, it's not sweet potato pie, I'm not eating that! And one time I did that next to her, I was standing next to her, she said, "What do you mean, that's ours," and I was like, Ooh. So that is how I feel it is right for me to be here.

Also my mother told me that her grandmother had white hair that she could sit on. She told me that she was a Cherokee woman, and for many years, I said, Really Mom, really? But I believe that during the 1830s in the Trail of Tears, I believe, I have no basis to to put this on, but I believe that my grandmother peeled off from the Trail of Tears and was absorbed in an African American community, and she married my grandfather. And my parents were old enough to be my grandparents, so basically she would have been my great-grandmother if my parents had had me earlier in their marriage. So that's why I feel right in being here.

Absolutely. So it sounds like, thinking about what your familiarity is with the American Indian movement, it seems like you have a lot of familiarity with the long history of these two communities. You know, being parts of the same causes and fighting for some of the same things, so is that sort of how you feel you're familiar with the American Indian movement, is sort of that history?

I have a sense. And they have so much to talk about.

Thinking about what is also motivating you today to be part of the movement as an ally to a lot of Indigenous people, what motivated you to take part today?

I'm a singer and storyteller and a historian. My voice is for the purpose of amplifying and uplifting and telling the story that needs to be told. I have said for a long time I give voice to peoples whose voice is not heard. So when it's time, when Lucy calls me if there's any way that I can come, I trust that she's going to be amplifying voices I want amplified. And I want to come.

So what do you think inspired partnership between the group you consider yourself part of, both as an artist, as a historian, and also in your community growing up? What do you think inspired the partnership between that community and the community that's here today?

Well for one thing we are not separate. There are many of us who are like me. My adviser Monte Kugel said she was standing there with the -- I was in California, University of California Riverside. She was standing in the mail room with one of her Native American students and they looked at me and they said, High cheekbones and a butt as flat as the Great Plains. Yeah, she's one of ours. And I was -- I've never heard myself described that way but it is so true.

So we are in convergence because of that early meeting and because of everything -- Many other historical events such as the five so-called civilized tribes, which gives you a really interesting idea of what the United States has promoted in the world. The five civilized tribes were the ones that had slaves. They were not -- it wasn't my understanding it was not the same kind of slavery that the mainstream here developed. A very special form.

So we have had convergences and connections and agreements and disagreements. You can learn a whole lot from the people you disagree with.

For many years, many many many years (sings) Buffalo soldiers. That was not a happy thing, but it was the metaphor which is another thing we share, and the song, which is another thing we share. And the drum, which is another thing we share, although we use it in different ways.

Wonderful, thank you so much.

INDEXED CLIP TIME: 00:08:21.24 --> 00:12:51.20 SEGMENT SYNOPSIS: In this clip, Karen Wilson-Ama'Echefu shares her thoughts on the name change from Colubmus to Indigenous Peoples' Day. SUBJECTS: Indigenous Peoples Day; Columbus Day; (Washington, DC); progressive movement; A People's History of the United States; Christopher Columbus

Thinking about Indigenous Peoples Day which just happened recently on, I believe, the twelfth of October, last year the DC government officially replaced Columbus Day with Indigenous Peoples Day. Why do you think that this change happened when it did?

When it did, ha! I was just saying to someone, our present president, number 45, has done more for the progressive movement than he ever dreamed. He made things starkly clear for many many many many people who never even thought about these issues before. So I think that even though there was, there still is, apparently kickback on this change, I think that the current starkness of separation, and the need to take your stand, show your spot, has made it more possible for this to happen.

I didn't even know! I mean, Lucy said that We're having a celebration of Indigenous Peoples Day, can you come and sing, and I was like, Yeah. No idea that it was the old Columbus Day, I didn't know. All I knew is that some people take that Columbus Day thing as a day of mourning. I would -- I'm happy that we're here to celebrate the beauty of our cousins, sisters, brothers, uncles, aunts, and we need to know each other better.

So thinking about your personal thoughts on this change of language, to making it Indigenous Peoples celebration, what are your personal thoughts on that change?

You know, Howard Zinn has a book, The People's History of the United States, and the first story he tells is Columbus encountering peoples in the Caribbean. He says so many lovely things about them, he says they'd make perfect servants, which is of course code word for -- Well it's not code, it's "they're going to serve us," but code word for slaves.

He had no right to be celebrated. He was a barbarian, someone who looked for -- He was an opportunist. This was not a wilderness without civilization, without cultivation. Unfortunately when someone does not know how to see difference, too often their ignorance hurts so many. So it wasn't the guns, it was the germs and the attitudes. So he doesn't deserve a day.

I'm grateful that these changes are being made, and I'm hoping -- You know, none of these buildings around us -- We don't know what we would have without Columbus, we don't know. But we could have had something different, I believe. We are not here to subjugate each other. We're all human, we all need shelter and we all have babies and we need to raise them, and we need to eat somewhere, and we can manage to do that without killing each other I believe. But that's just me.

I'm with you.

INDEXED CLIP TIME: 00:12:52.10 --> 00:15:42.13 SEGMENT SYNOPSIS: In this clip, Karen Wilson-Ama'Echefu describes her relationship to Malcolm X Park. SUBJECTS: Malcolm X Park; Meridian Hill Park; Indigenous Peoples Day; Columbus Day; (Washington, DC) 39 00:12:52.10 --> 00:13:03.24 So, thinking about the space we're in, Malcolm X Park, what's the significance of holding this event at Malcolm X Park in particular?

Well, you know it's interesting, it's also Meridian Hill Park.

(in response to a singer off-camera) Okay, check it check it check it. I don't know who that is but she's doing a deal, she's doing it.

Meridian Hill Park, Malcolm X Park, has a dual name and a dual identity, I'm sure in more than one community. Indigenous People's Day and Columbus Day also has a dual identity and it's very similar. I think it's most appropriate that we are here continuing to struggle with our identities, with who we are and what we're doing and why. We have to continue to ask those questions. I'm looking forward to approaching more workable answers with less fear and more growth.

Yes absolutely. Thinking about for you, your community's personal connection to the park, how would you describe that? What kind of connection does your community have to this park?

I really love this park. My daughter lived in in DC before I did. I always wanted to live here, she got to live here first. And when I would visit she would take me to the places she loved. She loved Meridian Hill, Malcolm X Park. She loved the drum circle, she loved the dancing. And I love them because these things are close to us.

This park is a center for culture, a center for learning, a center for community, a center for joy, a center for families, and so it is important that members and groups in our community come here to celebrate their triumphs and their challenges and to make networks and learn, to meet new people. Such a good thing.

INDEXED CLIP TIME: 00:15:43.24 --> 00:20:40.05 SEGMENT SYNOPSIS: Karen Wilson-Ama'Echefu ends the interview by performing a spoken word piece she wrote. SUBJECTS: vote; spoken word

So I guess I'll ask you in closing if there's anything else you'd like to say or talk about. If you wanted to sing a little something for us, I would love that.

I'll tell you what I want to do. I've just written a spoken word piece that I want to get out -- we're trying to get up to YouTube, that's one of the reasons I'm running to get home. It's called, "Baby Get Out and Vote."

So, I could really use a little help. I've got the claves (claps rhythmically, interviewer joins). Okay, I'm coming. Keep that going.

Baby get out and vote. Baby get out and vote, bom bom bom bom. Baby get out and vote. Baby get out and vote. Baby get out and vote, bom bom bom bom. Baby get out and vote. If you're any kind of poor, if you're any kind of brown, the man don't want you to vote he wants to shut you down. We got a choice between the devil and the deep blue sea. Well I don't know about you, but there's no choice for me. The man is dangerous.

Baby get out and vote. Baby get out and vote, bom bom bom bom. Baby get out and vote. I've seen what the devil can do and I am done with him. More than two hundred thousand are dead, you better learn how to swim.

Baby get out and vote. Baby get out and vote, bom bom bom bom. Baby get out and vote. You think your vote don't count I got news for you. He's doing everything he can so you never do. Trying to scare you and confuse you, trying to make it hard. Because if you go to the polls, he's going to the prison yard.

Baby get out and vote. Baby get out and vote, bom bom bom bom. Baby get out and vote. Now let's get real, he is afraid of you. Afraid of beauty and brilliance and what you can do with your head on straight and your mind engaged. That's why my peeps he's trying to keep you caged.

Baby get out and vote. Baby get out and vote, bom bom bom bom. Baby get out and vote. My cousin Ron said something truly profound. He said, pull your pants up and pull your lever down. Drop the ballot in the box, tap the button on the screen. That way the powers that be become the powers that been.

Yeah, Baby get out and vote. Baby get out and vote, bom bom bom bom. Baby get out and vote. Now when the White House turns and the Congress flips, you cannot go home and sit down. Let me give you some tips. Inform yourself, think deeply, and prepare to represent. So folks will recognize and honor your serious intents. Don't get caught up in cages of things. That way you'll be ready for what the future brings. Now go home and stabilize your community to strengthen our immunity. And let your light so shine amen.

Baby get out and vote. Baby get out and vote. (vocalizes) Baby get out and vote. Baby get out and vote. Baby get out and vote. (continues vocalizing) Baby get out and vote. Baby get out and vote!

Oh, I loved it! Thank you.

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

I can't wait for that to be on YouTube.

Okay I'm going to -- I'll let Professor Kerr know when it gets up. Oh honey this was great.

Thank you so much I loved it!