Harvey M. Matthews oral history interview, 09 November 2018

Okay, my name is John Power and I am recording with Mr. Harvey M. Matthews today. The date is November the ninth, 2018. We’re here at the Macedonia Baptist Church and we’re here to talk about the Moses Cemetery and other parts of Mr. Matthews’ life. So if you would, Mr. Matthews, tell me your name, which I’ve already stated. Where you were born, and when you were born.

I was born in Suburban Hospital, which was located on Old Georgetown Road, in Bethesda, and I was born in the year of 1944.

And tell me how big your family was, how many brothers and sisters did you have?

Ehhh… I had uh, three… three brothers and three sisters. There was seven of us all total, seven

And tell me a little bit about your mother and your father.

Ehhm… my mom was born in Orange County, Virginia. She moved to the Bethesda area, in the area of River Road, and her maiden name at that time was “Christian.” She met my dad, and they married and lived here on River Road and my momma worked… worked in the homes of the wealthy white folks during the years of my schooling and me comin’ up, and she ran a restaurant here on River Road, uh, that was formed out of [???] store, it became a restaurant, and the family owned it was the Millers. Abe Miller.

Do you remember the name of the restaurant?

That just was… it was just a… it was in that store, it didn’t have an actual name to it.

Mhmm.

This restaurant was already in the [???] of the store on the inside.

And how about your father?

Yeah, my dad worked as a sanitation engineer for the Washington Sanitation Committee, uh, as a supervisor now, until, that is, they changed over the ownership of the company to the various other names, but, uh, that’s where he started out at…

What was his name?

Milton G. Matthews.

And what were your brothers' and sisters' names?

Uh… oldest sister’s name was Shirley Matthews at that time. Uhh… my next oldest sister was Pauline Matthews. My brother was Milton G. Matthews Jr. and then my oldest brother was James R. Matthews and my other sister’s name was Aurene Matthews. Then there was myself, Harvey M. Matthews, there was my younger brother, John S. Matthews.

So were you second to the youngest?

Next to the youngest, yes.

So you’d told me before that your mother was, um, very religious. Can you tell me how she became very religious, and how that…

Well my mom came into this area with my dad, uh… my dad was a deacon in the church. Uh, my mom sung in the choir and she was a deaconess in the church. Uh, my mom’s brother was a, was a minister, was a preacher. And uh, my mom had a, had a twin brother. And a, but uh, she came up with the church background, very very religious. Uh and, she taught us children the goodness of the Lord and the mercy of the Lord and the goodness of the Lord and so we came up in a pretty much, uh in a religion home.

Can you tell me something about the home you grew up in and what other family homes near it you can remember?

Well in our homes, like I said it was seven of us, my dad, my mom, and the dogs and, we had a little farm-like area here on River Road. We had horses, and chickens, and homeless pigeons, and my dad trained, uh, trained beagle hounds for the white people in the area. He trained their dogs for them to teach them to hunt, you know, at night. Coon huntin’ was a popular thing back then in the olden days, and my dad has [???] white friends that lived down here in Wood Acres and Green Acres and the surrounding areas of River Road, and they came up and they used to go huntin’, you know, at night, and do night huntin’. Uh, but all the homes on River Road were average homes. Uh, they weren’t. uh, little shanty shacks, like they were nice dwellin’ homes. Because a lot of them was pre-owned by white people at- at first and they decided to leave the area and sold their homes to the- to- to the blacks that was more-so coming into the area. And uh, and buyin’ homes and, uh, working in the area.

And how did your mother and father come into the area? Why did they come into this area?

Uh, they came into the area from out of Orange… uh, with my mother’s father brought his family here. And, and, bought property and got in the home on River Road here. Uh, my dad was already here, cause his parents were already living here on River Road.

And so your father and mother met in the church?

Met more-so in the church, and, yeah, we used to have a little [???] here, it’s called The Sugar Bowl, and that’s where everybody went, you know, in the community, you know, partyin’ and whatnot.

Um, so can you give me an idea of what your earliest childhood memory would be?

Well I guess the main thing, [laughs], when I wasn’t going to school, and then when I started going to school, uh, and I had a big old dog, and everywhere I would go that dog went, and even when I was going to school, I was heading to school, even when I went inside the school, my dog would lay out on the porch all day ‘til I came out to recess or came out to go home or whatever. He stayed there right on the school steps. And when we came out the go home he would go home, you know, home with us. Uh, I remember, playing on the railroad tracks, playing around up there in the cemetery, and uh, up and down the hills of River Road and whatnot. And, uh, we had ball teams on River Road, you know, and we played a lot of competitive ball against each other and against all the other towns that was nearby, nice Scotland, Cabin John, and stuff like that. Basically, ah, me, I played sports a lot, so my after-school hours was mostly devoted to playing sports and doing sports and being involved in sports. And that’s basically what I did as far as coming up. Caddied at the various country clubs, [???] country club, Burning Tree [???] Country Club, Kenwood Country Club, you know, I caddied those places when I was younger, younger. Set pins at the bowling alley in Bethesda, so the white people could come in and bowl, we would set the pins. We never was allowed to bowl, we just set the pins.

How old would you say you were then, when you did that?

Uh, about thirteen.

So now you said that your father trained hunting dogs and… did you ever get to do any hunting yourself?

No, no. Later on, as I got growing old and older, yeah, ‘cause, uh, traditional thing on River Road, that was all killin’ on Thanksgiving morning, and there was rabbit huntin’ on up through Rockville and Gaithersburg. That was all built up and, uh, [???]… rabbit huntin’. And the nI did rabbit huntin’, uh, with my dad, on Thanksgiving morning, then we would come back and then watch the people. Kill the hogs, slaughter the hogs to get ready for Thanksgiving dinner later on that afternoon.

And how about fishing, did you ever do any fishing?

No, no, b- but my dad was a fisherman and my older brother was involved with fishing but I never did too much of any fishing. But when they did fish, they fished down there at uh… Chain Bridge [???] down there in the Potomac, Potomac Road, up in Tobytown.

So tell me what you can remember about the graveyard when you were young. Do you remember… kinda give me an idea of what it looked like?

The graveyard was… had old-fashioned stones, a lot of the stones they used was head markers they got out of the bed of the creek, they took [???] stones out of the creek and chiseled in them, put names in them and things and whatnot. Then we had a lotta masons and things, people who worked with concrete, and, and, the masons what laid bricks and blocks and [???] Road, they made wooden trawls and poured concrete in that and then beat the wood from the truck, and that made the image of a cross, and they used to take one end of that cross and dig a hole six to eight inches and stick that cross down in there in the ground and cover it up. They just had these flat rocks that they chiseled names in gravestones, and they was in that Moses Cemetery when we used to play on it and whatnot, those were the kinds of stones they had in there.

And did you ever get in trouble for playing in the graveyard?

No, we was always told not to play there, but being kids, we were mischievous at times. We played there anyway, because we had to pass through that area when we was going to school. So it became a little play spot, because we didn’t have no playgrounds or, you know, stuff to play on, so we used to go up in there and play hide and seek, up in the graveyard behind the gravestones and whatnot. Then, uh, everybody started moving away and on up in the later years, about fifty – sixty-four – about sixty-eight, they started building that, uh, Westwood Towers over there on the west [part ???]. And that’s when, uh, the graves got displaced and whatnot. And there was a bunch of people who said there wasn’t gonna be no big ditch and shovel all the graves’ remains down in this trench and cover it over. And that’s when, in later years, they paved it over with a parking lot, when they built the Westwood Towers. Westwood Towers was finished, completed in sixty-eight. [???] in DC, but the church was always here, so I always came back

So were you always involved in the church, even when you were young, or did that come later?

No, I was involved in the church I guess around Sunday school age, I guess around about you’d say about seven, eight, nine years old. The church was a thing to us and… go to school, play around the church during the summer months, and then we got associated with American University and we used to go down there before they built all them homes down there, and we used to camp out on the woods on the weekends and stuff like that. Then we used to go to American University to use their pool, and that’s where we used to swim at. Other than that you went down the railroad track to Georgetown, down in the creek, bring a towel down there basically, and swim in the water down there. But then we got affiliated with the [???] Baptist Church, they tied us into American University and we went there to swim.

So the cemetery was established before you were born?

Oh yeah, oh yeah. The cemetery… you know, I look at the history of it now and they talk about the cemetery was born, established somewhere like 1867 or something like that somethin’. Yeah, but the church itself wasn’t established until somethin’ like 1920, something like that.

Had you ever heard, when they interred the bodies at the cemetery that there had been a petition to not do so?

No, never heard of any petition of not doing so, or not building there because they were building those towers and disturbing the cemetery, and in later years the stories were told that the bulldozers already dug a trench and took out, took all the tombstones and everything, uh, pushed it in something like a ninety-foot-deep trench, and then covered over. Because firstly they were building the towers, the man was afraid about the [???] of the bank, that some of those caskets was gonna come off that bank and then go down in the creek bed. They were gonna have a problem with that, se he had to do something to keep that from happening, and that’s when they established that parking lot back there and covered all that – red clay hills up.

So tell me a little bit about the greater church community. Your relationship with this church, with the other churches.

Uh, we had a good relationship with uh, Westmoreland Baptist Church down on Massachusetts Avenue. We had a church up in Cabin John [???], what they call a Gibson Grove, another one near Scotland, up there in Scotland off of Seven Locks Road. Uh, we had another one, another church up in Tobytown, Rockville, another church near Mount Glory was on, uh, back off the Boulevard. That was, uh, that was another church. So the churches was very connected throughout the black churches of Montgomery County, the black areas.

So tell me about your, your schooling. First school you went to and then you went to a different school later, is that right?

Yeah, I come out the all-black school, and went to Somerset, which is over here in Somerset. I think we started going over there to integrated schools, the segregated schools in fifty-four. And, uh, we started going there, did that for a while, then went over to [???], I mean, Mass. Avenue, to Western Junior High School. Finished that, then went on over to Chevy Chase for East West Highway, then, by that time, we moved over into DC and went to [???] High School, and that’s where I finished my schoolin’ at, at [???].

So when you went to the integrated school, can you tell me about that? Was that… was it a big deal?

Well it was an adventure within itself. Very disappointed, you’d go in there, and being black, you’d come from over here on River Road and going there, uh, it was just a thing of… you’re going to school, and you got insulted with different comments. Uh, there was name-calling and stuff like that, that we shouldn’t be there and why don’t we go away and let them have a school system of their own, and uh, why did us blacks want to come over there to- to the white schools at the time. So it was very—constant use of the “n” word back then, but you know, I look at it today, and I tell folks, I think I heard more of the references to the “n” word today than I did back then. Hell, there wasn’t integrated schools and blacks started going to schools with the whites. You know, I think there was less of that word being used back then in the fifties and early sixties than it is now.

Did anybody that you remember have any problems? I mean, was there fights or anything like that?

Well, we was always laughing and joking about it. We fought going to school and during recess and coming home from school. You know, that’s how we survived. Yeah, we maybe did that for the first three months of the school year, and after that I guess they figured we weren’t going anywhere and we started mingling with them and getting along with each other, because, most of the blacks together, [???] athletes, so we put a lot of schools on the map because they had the blacks to anticipate on the track, you know, on the ball, the football and all that. And a lot of them schools wouldn’t have no kind of name for themselves if it wasn’t for the blacks, and that’s how they got established. And all the high schools, the Johnson Whitman and all in the area, they got popular when they started mixing blacks in the school.

And how did your parents feel when you went to the school? Did they talk to you about it?

Well my mom was very religious and so was my dad, but no. They just told us to try to take care of ourselves and try to put ourselves out of harm’s way and to try to be respected as much as we could be, to be respected. And not to go looking for trouble, but if the trouble came our way, we had to do what we had to do to deal with it. So it wasn’t like we were gonna turn tail and run, that wasn’t in the program. Yeah, you stand there and fight your battle and whatnot. So, that’s how we survived there.

So tell me, um, a little bit about your life when you got, um, you know, over… eighteen, say.

I guess I got outta school and got in the work field and my dad and everybody else was working [???], so I took it on as a job too, because that’s what most blacks had to do out here was a stone career workin’ and sanitation committee and trash and whatever-not. And, you know, I said, “well, how will we survive?” and by that time, so, I started to have children of my own, and they said “a man has to do what a man has to do,” so I did all I could to take care of them.

And how many children did you have?

Eh, da-da-da, I had six. Yeah, I had four- four girls and two sons. Yeah, right now I got four grand, thirteen great-grand.

So tell me about your wife, how you met your wife.

Eh, she lived, eh, in Rockville at the time. My wife was very good, very athletic, especially softball player, and volleyball, and stuff of that nature. And we met doing things, going around with teams in sports and whatnot. And then I was going to church here and she was going to church in Rockville. And then [???] Silver Springs.

So how long did you court before you got married?

Eh, she came up in a strictly Christian family, boy they was, they ain’t cuttin’ me no slack! I’d say almost about two-and-a-half years.

And how did your parents feel about that?

Well, my parents kind of knew her parents, so that was, in this area there wasn’t too many people not knowin’ each other. So, you know, it went over all right. When they gave their blessing upon it, so, it wasn’t a thing that was too harsh. I was doing everything I was supposed to be doing as a young man. I was working, I was, you know, taking care of my kids, paying my rent, everything was cool.

So I’ve talked to you before about when you played baseball, and I want you to tell me that story one more time. I’ve heard it a couple of times, umm, when you went to the Hot Shops restaurant and they didn’t want to serve you. So, let me start at the beginning of that, for, how did you first start playing for the baseball team?

Well, I was going to school, and we used to have recess on a school day, and we used to play kickball. Let it roll the ball, kicking [???] [??? For a few words]. Then we used to play softball, and I could run a fairly good speed at that time. And, uh, we had not team at school, we used to play intermural ball. So then, one of my friends on the team, he was tellin’ me that, uh, that they was having tryouts for the, the recreation… Chevy Chase Recreation Center, and I went up there and the coach looked at me and whatnot, the first day we worked out, and he told me to come back, and I went back. And pretty much, as far as playing sports went, as far as playing baseball, I never looked back my second day of practice, and I was the only black on my team. And, uh, then the man at the drug fair, told us that if we won the games, then we could come to the drug fair and get a cheeseburger and a Cherry Coke. Cherry Coke was a big thing back in that time, and we went marchin’ in there, we won our games and whatnot, everybody got to the counter and was sittin’ around, and I was sittin’ up there and the guy come and say “man I can’t serve you in here.” And I said, I said, “what?” He said “can’t serve you here.” He said “I can serve these guys but I can’t serve you. My boss isn’t gonna let me serve you and let you sit at this counter.” He said “but I’ll give you a hamburger and fix you a soda, but you gotta carry it outside, and you gotta eat it outside. Furthermore you gotta, can’t stand here and wait on it, you gotta go around the side, to a little alleyway out there and we’ll give it to you out the window.” So when my coach came in, and asked them where was I, and they said I went outside and told him what had happened and all, whatnot, he said “well y’all gather up all y’all’s stuff, and y’all march out here, because if Matthew’s can’t eat in here, we all won’t eat in here.” And he was very very strict with that. That only lasted one week, he went back and he raised so much hell to somebody down in Bethesda, and a lot of parents came out and protested and picketed this drug store and all that. And the police officer just come to watch us play. They’d just say, “I’m gonna tell you right now, why they didn’t [???] that guy, but I’m gonna tell you right now, he’s one of the best ball players on that team. And he is why they are where they are, and you know he deserved to be…” Well anyway, but that wasn’t the case. During that time there was a real restriction on blacks being seated at the counters and things, the hot shops, the taverns and all that. You know, it lasted about a good year. Then it, then it played it down.

How did the other players on the baseball team feel when you first came on the team as the first black player?

Well, they, it wasn’t no “hoolah” because at school they see me every day and I played with them every day after school. So they’re the ones who went to the coach, told him that black boy that lived down on River Road, he was in my class and boom boom boom, Then he can really play ball, he can run fast, he can do this and he can do that. And the coach said “yeah, bring him on up.” And he asked them: I didn’t feel the bump, playing on the team as the only black, they didn’t have a problem with it. You know, so they thought there might be a problem with spectators or something like that, but it wasn’t too big a problem because I remember seeing them, I remember seeing boys, girls, they’d say “y’all got a game this week? Y’all playing this evening?” and whatnot. So it was a pretty [???]. You know, and every time I played ball my mom and my dad always came and watched me play ball or something. I figured they weren’t getting bothered or assaulted or nothin’ like that so, okay! So my mom let me play, she says it’s okay for me to play. So I went and played from – from grade school to junior high school and right up to senior. I never had any more problem out there.

And that – so when you had kids, did they – are they athletes too? Your children?

My kids?

Uh-huh.

Yeah my son – he did everything except play pro ball. Bummed his knee out and was playing for West Virginia. He busted his knee up. Uh… my other son, he just wanted something in the morning, something to get him to go to school. He went to school behind a scholarship. And my girls, I mean, my oldest daughter, she ran track pretty – pretty good. And the rest of ‘em, they were like, cheerleaders and stuff – soccer players and stuff like that.

So do you think that going to school for them was different than going to school for you?

Oh, way much different! Because we had paved the way. We paved the way. You get – you get awarded on your achievements and what you can do, but I instilled the difference that my dad instilled in me, you know, you get to readin’, writin’, arithmetic, first of all. You don’t worry about that ball, you go in there and get educated so you can pave the way for yourself and for your kids to come behind you. So you make sure you can get education where, you know, you can get trainer

So… I’m sorry, go ahead.

No, that’s basically, you know – that’s basically what it was. There wasn’t no – the ones that came behind us, they had it easy! [laughs] Yeah, they had it easy. Yeah, yep. Because by that time, [???] had grown up by that time and become teenagers, and more of them was in school, like in Scotland you had the [Dubs ???] and this one and that one and the Matthews down on River Road, and the Smiths in [???] Gove, and the Martin family in Tobytown. All these people was athletes. You know, people came out on Saturday, Sunday playing ball. Each little community played the next little community and it became a big fad. So every little black community had their own baseball team.

So tell me about when – communities would get together, what were the biggest gatherings and what were they like?

Uh… you go to the beer joint, and party and dance, and stuff like that. You’d cut up like that. And each little – little area had their own little beer club, you know, beer joint. So it kept us – kept us going.

And do you remember the name of the beer joint you used to go to?

Well the one we had around here was, uh, The Sugar Bowl. Then on up further into Maryland they had one called “Dew [Do?] Drive In,” then they had Jimmy Cooper’s place up in, uh, outside of Tobytown. Then we had Bub Duvall’s in Tenley Grove. So, that’s just how it was, they just stayed within their circle. But no, back on Friday nights we would host parties. Somebody in the community would have a house party. And everybody had them, you know, and we would get together and have a house party. This is where you met your little girlfriends, a little this a little that. But it wasn’t no – it wasn’t a whole lot worse than that now than it was then. Whole lotts fightin’ and shootin’ and all that kind of stuff hadn’t come in, that come on now, that came in after the mid-eighties or something like that.

So when you were young a shooting was a pretty rare occasion?

Huh?

A shooting, when you were a younger person, was it a very rare occasion?

Very rare. Very very rare.

Um – so, let’s talk a little bit about where we’re at now, as far as the effort that the church is making, and, um – what’s your first memory of the church?

Being baptized. Uh, when I got baptized I was about nine. We ain’t got that pool like we got in there now. We got baptized right up there at Scotland. And as far as [???] people mention Scotland right in the creek, and when the preacher took us underwater to baptize us, you could – you could see the fish coming downstream in the water. You can see the catfish and the different fish and things that was runnin’ back then. You know, and you could see them. And, uh – that was it! Come to church, go to Sunday school, see but then I tell my kids now, y’all got it made! Y’all go to church three times, and we went four times back in my day. We went to Sunday school at – at – at 9:30, we went to morning service at 11:00, we went to evening service at 3:00, and then we went to the night service at 6:00. So we stayed in church all day. But we didn’t have the luxury of a McDonald’s or Roy Rogers and stuff then. All the food came from home, made and prepared by each given home that lived on River Road. Somebody brought the roast, somebody brought the chicken, somebody brought the greens, somebody brought the mashed potatoes, somebody brought sweet potatoes, somebody brought corn, peas, and all that. Pies, pastries and all that. Everything was right here, so you had nothing to leave the church for! Once you got here, you was here! Playin’ around all over the playground until you gotta go back in to the service, you know, but church was church back then. Not as much of this today. I’m sayin’ from – from the early sixties until, I’m gonna say until… maybe – 2000, maybe… 1975, man you had church when you came to church. People would be in that church – church just singin’ and white folks would be parkin’ their cars and stuff up and down River Road, just let ‘em, just let the black church folks singin’. Yeah, we always had someone who would go sing downtown, Virginia, here and there, you know? And, uh… this church was really known for singin’. Every black church was! The one up in Scotland, they was known for singin’. And up there where Reverend Martin be comin’ from, that Tobytown, and they can go, it was like being in Carnegie Hall, they can throw down.

And what songs did they sing?

Huh?

What kinds of – same songs you sing in church today?

All kinds of Christmas song – I mean – same songs they’re singing today, yeah. It’s just more – more upbeat of it or different vibes of it but, uh, I mean, they cut up. But, uh, Macedonia right here now they – they – they got nice singin’ and Scotland does, Toby – all of ‘em! The church has never faded out because the little ones have always grown into it. The old men will fade off or die off or something like that, and all their teenagers will get into their spot, just, and it’s like a revolving door, just keep going around and around and around.

So how many members of the church now are from your era, are there any – there’s more than just you?

Eh, from my era, it might be… three besides myself. Four. In all our church now is descendants from Africa and Jamaica. Like the [???] and all them kind of places. You know, there’s very few Americans in my church now, maybe about three besides myself.

And when do you think that started happenin’?

Uh… I’m sayin’ round about, oh 1980.

And how did the – how did your – the members of the church feel about that, at that time?

Well most of ‘em came in this country ‘cause they was workin’ for white families, all up in Potomac and all the big white homes, you know, and that’s how they got in – got in the states. They came in – excuse me – they came in on like a visa, for – for – for workin’ for those folks in their homes, and it was hard three or four of ‘em, do some things in the house…

Okay, I think we’re going. I don’t have too much more for you but I got a little more. So what I want to talk about now is trying to bring things up to where we are now, and tell me how, how you first thought about or heard about the effort when people first decided “hey we need to do something about the graveyard.”

Well, it was strange, because… I know when they built that apartment over there, and I used to hang out at that gas station up there, Citgo, about thirty years off Westbard, in [town name?], and never ever was anyone sayin’ anything about movin’ any bodies, and then they used to find bodies and ring the bell, and stop – stop the work and all that. And, not the pastor we have in now, but the former pastor, Rev King, they asked me to come with them and go up to the Park and Planning meeting they was havin’ up in Silver Springs one night, and I got in there and they was talkin’ about the sector plan, how it was gonna be redeveloped, Westbard, and all that area over there, and just the third, and all that and whatnot, and then I was sayin’ to myself, I said “wait a minute! I haven’t heard anyone yet said about they removed those bodies from over there., that they moved those bodies.” And… they said that – they had a panel that you can come up and testify. So I went up and I asked, uh, the commissioner, I said “the question I have to raise,” I said, “I was born and raised on River Road, Tobytown,” runnin’ around and different things and whatnot, I said “and I ain’t never heard of any knowledge of you all movin’ those bodies that was in the cemetery there.” [First thing they laughed???] and said there wasn’t no cemetery. [???] there wasn’t no cemetery. I said “well, I beg your difference, but, I was born and raised on River Road,” told ‘em how long I lived on River Road, how long I was still there at the service station, and when they built them Westwood Towers, and I said “nobody moved no body out of there, in a casket. You’re looking at [filing some casket???] over there at that cemetery, and none of them was trucked out of there.” Mike Snowden was a black politician out there and Maryland at that time, and Snowden never said he moved any. Mr. Snowden’s father didn’t say he moved any when he died. Mr. Snowden took over, and he said he never – then his son, Snowden Jr. took over, and he said he didn’t move any. So now in the fourth generation of the Snowden funeral home, it’s down there in Rockville. So now I said “wait a minute, ‘cause the cemetery was there when we used to play there and go to school there and we used to do this there and do that.” So like, everybody stepped back and said “what the hell’s he talkin’ about?” And I said “I don’t know how come it’s not in the county records, and I think the county needs to search its records, check all the morticians in the area, I’m- I’m gonna say from about 1950 to 2016, -15 when I first went over there, that I got involved in the struggle here. And I kept tellin’ them, they kept saying “nah, there isn’t any proof,” but they had knowledge of it. They had knowledge of a cemetery bein’ there, and they didn’t want it to be known. They didn’t want it known, because now they already got a building built up on the cemetery. They done paved a parking lot over top of the cemetery. Uh, you have remains in them clay hills over there. And ain’t nobody moved them where they go. So I kept on askin’ that. Eventually somebody went back, did some research, looked it up, said “oh, there was a cemetery there called Sons and Daughters of Moses, and it was there.” Okay, then we went – we went and started fightin’ them about that. Some of ‘em still would come back and [see a ledge???]. And so our biggest fight was getting’ them to realize that they found it there and have them realize that – that – that it was there. Okay, so then they said that it was there. I came back to the church, and by that time Reverend King was leavin’. And our new pastor come on. And he told me, he said “reverend King told me you had knowledge of this” and I said “yeah! Sure.” I said “man the cemetery was there, all right? Me and my sister and brother used to play in it so we finally got it known that it was there.” Okay. To prove our point, then, we just got to the point, we was sayin’ “these people should be memorialized, something should be there, put in recognition that there once lived here on Rive Road, make like a museum, a memorial and a museum. And we been fightin’ for three years now on that subject, and I learned somethin’ new in here today. When we tried to get people from American University, to go in there, explore the ground, dig it up and whatnot, the county, Parks and Planning, they was all for it at first. Then they dropped them, uh, uh, Blakey and- and- and- that little girl, they dropped them like a hot potato. They said “no, no, no, y’all can’t use them.” We don’t – we don’t want him. So they sent us another group in here. They came in, sat with us, talked with us, said “we gonna do this, we gonna do this, and we gonna do the third,” and they said “whatever we’re gonna do we’re gonna do it together with the church. We’re not gonna make a move without the church.” So they reneged on it which is why I say we had somebody stabbed me in the back. They reneged on it. They went back to the planning commission. I just learned today, I seen ‘em up in the [???] buildings they been up there diggin’ and diggin’, what in the world are they diggin’ for, I don’t know! So that’s what they did! So maybe about… two months ago, they woulda been dug it up and explored it. So now they’re realizin’, sayin’ that… cemetery was there, they’re finding showin’ the cemetery was there, whatnot. So now where we gettin’ with that now? But they did not tell the church. They did not tell us that what the discovered and how they discovered…

And where… where is that group from? The- the- the group that did the digging? Who were they?

That was somebody that the county – that the county got! Came in here and sat with us! And they told us they wasn’t gonna do nothin’ with the county until we was involved.

So it wasn’t part of the university?

No, hmm-nmm.

It was a different group.

Different group. See? But they didn’t come back and tell us they was going to do that. That they have done that. So they’ve done that. So now, I’ve been tellin’ the pastor, I’ve been sayin’ now we gotta get on it to see what all [???] about. They ain’t moved no bodies, so now if they dug down and give you the knowledge that yeah that was in the case that the cemetery was there, okay! So now, do you think we’re gonna let you sit still and let you come back, after you confirmed that and let you pave another parking lot, build a garage and stuff? No, no, no, no, no. So now when this guy come on yesterday or, or [Mount Elridge???], see, and he been with us about two years, he’s not a, this went on waaaaay too long. He said “injustice been done way back then in the 50s and back then during the 60s, no no, it’s not gonna go on, continue on on my watch. We’re gonna get to the bottom of this, and we’re gonna get somebody to dig it up or explore it or do this and the third, so happened after he made that statement yesterday, I mean Wednesday, at the- at the HOC meeting, so now, this comes out. I think they said it came out yesterday. Yeah, about… that is the burial spot.

And somebody has dug in there.

And somebody has dug in there.

And have they ever given you the findings of what they have?

No! We don’t have no findings. Because we just heard about it.

Have you spoken to the church about that?

No. And they never talked to the church about it, and we just found out about it, I think yesterday. [Shey???] got a letter from somebody, yesterday. So now, this is where we at now. You was aware of it, have people dig it up, you did not notify the church, so now what is the c- what is the coverup now? Because if you know all that, we need to know that! So we can pursue what we gonna do, concerned that what we’ve been askin’ for, all this time.

Let me ask you about the various entities, people who have said they’re gonna help the church. So starting in the beginning, if you can, kinda outline different people who’ve joined the effort and how they have failed you or succeeded for you.

Well… well the main one who hurt us the most was [???], David. See because, I don’t- I don’t talk to too many – too many people, I don’t do too many interviews, I’ve done ‘em and I got burnt. I did it with Bethesda Magazine or some sort. Then it was with the Washington Post, then it was somebody else, and all these people, they got little bits and pieces from me, and never moreso got back to me with it, and turned the stories. When I told them about [???], I said let me tell you about [???]. In the interview, [???] is a crook! He’s a beat. He’s controlled by the white media, and all that whatnot, and when I give you an interview, and you interview me, I expect to see if you’re gonna put in the Washington Post, I expect for you to put it in there as I said to you, that’s how I cared to say. Everything I said about [???], it never got in the Washington Post. Or, or, one of the writers named [Troop?], he went on to Kansas, he would never put nothing I said in there about [???]. He would just brush over it, put something else, this, that, and the third. Then he started a thing about a [ledge???] cemetery. Then, you know, I’m tellin’ you there was a cemetery there, I played in it and all that, you gonna tell people about a ledge? So I went through that with him. So then I just shut down. Instead of beatin’ all of ‘em, stopped talkin’ that… lady that was in here earlier today, her and David, and another lady named Paige. All of them write books and things together. You know, and I sat down with them. I said “you know what, I’m not givin’ it, not givin’ any more interviews, uh, and David, David really took the starch outta me because I confide with him a lot. And I would tell Paige and his other people that work with him, I wouldn’t share a word with them. And then later on I found out that he worked with them! So what I was givin’ to him he was givin’ to them and they was makin’ these little books like this book this lady gave me today, stuff like that, conversation I had with her, whatnot, and she’ll come back and give it to me, and, uh, man it just got crazy. So it was just a point of trying to get through HOC, then HOC… Regency owned the property, HOC come and paid Regency twenty million for the property. Why you buyin’ it if you aren’t planning on doing anything with it? Now you got us fightin’ to take down the cemetery there, we haven’t resolved that issue. You keep on sayin’ that it’s not, you keep sayin’ you don’t want to give us permission to get people to go in there and dig it up! But now here of late, county and you all got in there, and let somebody dig it up. And they came back and said that, pretty much that a cemetery was there. I mean, and so – so, that’s good news to me to hear, but the thing is now, where do you go from here to do something about it? And why y’all did not come to the black community and to the church and discuss that with us like y’all did a year ago? See, so now, so now everybody know now that it’s a coverup. That’s all they knew all the time, and you know, you try to sweep it under the rug.

So… were these people that do the books, was that SURJ, or is that a different group?

No no no, that's not SURJ.

Oh, okay.

No. Now, now, SURJ came in as a group to help us. Great, they still here with us today. Because of, uh, Laura. Sister Nancy is the pastor of a church up on River Road. She came in to help us. She stayed there for about a year. And the reason she went away was because of another young lady, who was here today, then we had a lawyer that was with us, and [???} and Michelle done had a lawsuit against the county right up here on Westbard. About [something about travel when they put the second plan in there???]. So they had a fallout. So their group, Pastor and Michelle and them, they filed suit against the county. And maybe about six months ago, they lost the lawsuit. So we haven’t heard anything… Michelle, so we haven’t heard anything from Michelle since they lost the lawsuit. [Patsy???] is here today, working still with us, and Michelle went her way. SURJ is okay. Uh, Sister Nancy was okay. So then ‘bout that time David came along. Uh, Paige came. I went and talked to Paige, the lady here who was here this evening. She gave me this information, ‘cause I’ve been meeting with her for the last month or so. And then she revealed to me that was I… [laughs], was I aware that her, Paige, and David works together on writing their books, pamphlets, and whatnot? I told her I wasn’t aware of that. And uh, so that’s where we went with them at. Then you all come and say that you wanna interview me, so I figured you all had been workin’ with the church. I told them I wasn’t gonna do no more interviews. Then I told the pastor, I said “well, uh, American University had given us all they could give us, they been helpin’ us a lot, and we appreciated them comin’ in and helpin’ us because they didn’t have to. Uh, but I don’t wanna be the one who keeps them from tryin’ to draw up something or draft up somethin’ that they may need if I can give them any information that I would do that.” And I told ‘em, I said I was supposed to meet with one of them, you know, Friday evening after our meeting to go through things with him, and I told him I would, you know? And he just said, “well, Brother Matthews, if that’s what you feel you want to do, you know, you go right ahead. I can’t tell you what to do and what not to do, if that’s what you want to do.” And I said “yeah, so. And the only other thing we’ve been waitin’ for this time was for the elections to be over and see was we gonna get Elridge in the lot, ‘cause we done a whole lotta campaignin’ for him, and to have him win that, to have him come in there and speak at HOC like he did the other day, that was very important for me to hear him speak like that.” And so I said “well, here we go again. Let’s see what he’s gonna be all about.” You know, so that’s- that’s- basically where we’re at right now, it’s this idea of lettin’ it run its course, to get together with HOC, Regency, and with Parks and Planning, and see if they’re gonna allow us to build… a memorial, if they’re gonna allow us some construction for a, something to put a museum. You know, and that’s where we are.

SO I guess the last thing, uh, I’ll talk to you about is uh, the meeting the other night, ‘cause I was there, and I- I recorded all the- all the speeches everybody gave, and I thought yours was particularly moving to me. So was… the pastor’s.

Pastor's.

And, um, so give me an idea on how you felt about the meeting, and how you felt when you were speaking to those people, and what you think of those people behind the…

I been… okay I’m gonna tell you exactly how I feel. I’ve been speaking to those people for two years. Two months ago, they didn’t change anything, any of those conversations with blacks on the committee, on our group. The tall white boy who was here today, he had said what he had to say, was coming back to take his seat, and the lady who was a chairperson of that committee, she spoke to Bill. She said “ah, blah, blah, blah, boom, boom, boom.” And he said “yeah, this, that, and the other.” She was communicating with him! So I’m like sittin’ there to myself sayin’ “What the hell?” [???] you had to be a white boy for her to talk to you, something like that. I said, they never talked to me, and this man over here, he’s black like I am, he don’t talk to him! This woman on the committee don’t talk to me, you know? And I said “wow, man! What’s going on?” So now! You asked me, so I stopped speakin’ to ‘em for about maybe four months, I would just sit back and watch everybody else see what this person might be sayin’ to this person why don’t they get the hell outta here and why they keep comin’ every month with this same bull crap or whatever kind… So, I stayed away. But then the pastor called me, said “I’m gonna draft up somethin’ for me, and I’m gonna draft up somethin’ for you, to speak on Wednesday. And the pastor pulled one before me and I pulled up, came behind him somewhere along the line, but so happened, I got up there before him, and he went after me. So, then, when I got up, I said “you know what? I’m not goin’ that way with this. I’m gonna tell these people strictly from my heart, like I been tellin’, and I want them to- to hear me! Little black man in here cryin’ his heart out to you all for some justice. Just hear what I’m sayin’. Give me a chance to sit down with you all and discuss my concerns with you all is all I’m askin’ for you all to do. Just- just give me that and I’ve been comin’ here, asking you all this, okay? Then y’all sit- sit- sit down with us! And that mo- that me-, like we didn’t even have it. Okay, we came back again. Same thing. Cryin’ to you all, I’m askin’ that man, “what can we do to get you to talk to us? What can we get you so we can sit and have a meeting? I don’t care to come in here and disparage you- your public forum that you have here. I want to go somewhere on the side in another room with the church folks and greet with you and let’s get an understandin’.” Yeah, yeah. And then I told him off the record, I said “man, let me tell you one thing. I’m feelin’ very strage for me to have to come in here and have a battle with a- a- with a black man and with a- with a brother and what I have to with you, then you sit in here and you find all fault with Marsha’s just said and with this one said and with Laura’s sayin’ and this, I’m not concerned with. I’m talking about me and you right now. You know. I can meet you one on one anywhere in this county, discuss these things, because I am the descendent! I am the only descendent of River Road! You know, these people come to help me! These people come to help my cause, you know. I got- got white, black, African, Jews, all these people to come help me, they come to help me! This is my cause. You know? I’m the one cryin’, cryin’ foul to the county, you know? And I’m right here today doin’ the same thing, you know? And I was- I was tryin’ to, I was tryin’ not to- to- to go off on the deep end, because I know [Segun] was comin’ and he already expressed to me how upset he was, and I- and I- I know he goin’- he goin’ let them have it, cause I talked to him earlier that day. So, and, talkin’ to them and lookin’ at them, you know, and I’m watchin’ that lady and she’s just lookin’ at me, goin’ “you know, okay well… when you take your seat like the rest of ‘em, we’re not gonna budge…” So I said “well, I don’t want to be too bad.” I told- I told Marsha I said “it’s a good cop- it’s a bad cop and a good cop. Today, on this particular Wednesday, you all be the bad cop, I’m gonna be the good cop.” I’m tryin’ to let the man know we still want a reason to sit together, do a little boom boom boom boom boom boom, hopin’ he would let me know something blasé blasé. They try to put us- put back on a plane, like an even foundation. Then when [Segun ], when the pastor got finished, heh, you know, I’m standin’ back there, at the back of the meetin’, I was lickin’ my chops. I said “let him have it, let him have it, let him have it,” and he didn’t back down, and he when he got up, I mean to walk away he still said something back to explain and I applauded that. And- and tell you the truth I- I told him today when we got in here earlier, I said “man I’m gonna tell you what. For a number of occasions I’ll tell you the same thing I told you before. I was really proud to- at HOC, for you to be my pastor.” I said- I said “you did the job.” I was very impressed with what you had to say. I said “you know what? And comin’ from you, it means more than anything, because you the leader of the church, [Segun], and you can’t just go in there and just ‘yay, nay’ and smooth sailin’ with them, you gotta roll your sleeves up sometimes, you gotta let your feathers gets fluttered, you know? You gotta let ‘em have it.” And I said- I said “you did a hell of a job! I was very, very, I was very proud of you.” Now here you sittin’ here talkin’ about you heard him, you heard me, and… who and whatever, but, it’s not easy when you’re goin’ in there, ‘cause those people man they got like deaf ears and they’re not payin’ you no attention, and you just wanna talk to a brick wall. You know, they don’t budge.

So we’ll finish with one- one final question, and that is: a lot of white people, you know, committed transgressions on this community, over a long period of time. And now that you’re going for this effort, some white people are trying to help you, and how do you feel about those white people trying to help you? Do you feel that they’re all genuine of heart? Are they doin’ it for the right reasons? Their reasons? And… how does it makes you feel?

Well, I’ll tell you like I have stated before. I sat here and told Laura, the committee that we have, uh, pretty much, just like today. I mean- I mean I’m here with five African Americans and I’m in here with nine Caucasians. Now, I always go and try to sit here, so I can have everybody in front of me. Uh, I sit there at times and I get very emotional. When I look out there, and I see how we’re outnumbered as a body, and I listen to what that person be sayin’, and I like- like- like Lynn, sometimes I heard Lynn and sometimes I don’t heard Lynn. Lynn- Lynn can be a ner- ner- a nerve rattler. But she’s good! She has good points, she has good meaning. But I know all she’s doing and all she has said and has done is comin’ from her heart. She’s doin’ it from her heart, it’s not a form or a fashion, she’s doing it from her heart. Laura, same thing. Laura has done a lot to help us. Laura’s group, SURJ, has really helped us financially, to keep on getitn’ motivated, keep on goin’ where we’re goin’. Reached out and got attorneys for us and whatnot, did not charge us notin’ to do the legal work and research and the this, that, and the other and whatnot. Like that little teeny old lady that be in there talkin’, I love her to death and of course she’s funny to me, but she gets serious, she gets so excited she can’t- can’t hardly talk. And I watch her and I watch [???], she [???] the lawyer that was here. She- she was- she was good as gold. You know, and Jim! Uh, then you got Bill. Then this other guy came in, taller gentlemen. And I sat there to myself, and you know I be sayin’ to myself “Wow, this thing, huh? They don’t have to be here! Neither one of them had to be here. But they are here, and they had shared with you, where they had heard you speak, and say what you said, and that’s what got them involved to be here, because they figured that you had been hurt in the past, you don’t mind tellin’ the story, ‘cause if you don’t tell the story, the story’s gonna go unknown, un- untold. And they’re here to push you, to motivate you and ask you “what do you need for me to do to help you with this situation?” You know, and I tell ‘em, “boom boom boom, we gotta be there at one o’ clock, boom boom boom,” like that. Okay now, American University comes in here, and I look at those kids, I look at that group, I look at the leader of that group, I look at you, uh, and, it’s funny that I can remember- I can remember you, and I go home, I talk to my family concernin’ you, and I said… the man asked a question on night, like “what did y’all eat? What did y’all do about food?” I said when he said that, [laughs], we ate like everybody else, and Mr. Hatton went up to West Virginia and brought the food back to River Road and we ate, we did this that and the other. I said you know I never did get the fullness, and I always ask myself, I was like I guess I answered the question to his satisfaction, what he asked me, but you know I said he came back again after that and he says somethin’ about food, come to find out, as funny as it may seem to me, the man’s a chef! [Laughs]. I said “man, I mean- man when you asked about food…” I said the funny thing about it is it’s a small world, he graduated over there at Catholic University, I said where Michelle graduated, my oldest daughter graduated from Catholic. Then she left Catholic and went over there to Texas, and then graduated out of the, the… University of Texas Law School, and got her degree again! Then she went back again and got her Master. And, you know, uh, and I was lookin’ at her and she said “what daddy? Wow, you should have known him when I was goin’ to school, I woulda been gettin’ a free meal!” [Laughs] Yeah, I said “It’s a small world.” I said yeah, but I said and I- I said and I talked to him, and, uh, my wife even told me “all right now, you know how [???] day,” said, said “don’t you come back and get your feelings hurt again!” I said “nah, I ain’t gonna get hurt like that no more,” I said “because I look at this guy as a whole different matter, then I looked that day, I went “they wasn’t mad at me, they told me!” Now, I went in the meetin’ with HOC, I seen David come out the side door from the back… “What the hell’s David doin’ here?” So he went up and sat on the front row, more seats than [???], I came from the background and I sat right beside the man, but, uh… the black guy that the… the head of the HOC, he was lookin’ at me the whole time, we was makin’ like eyeline contact, he was sayin’ to himself “What the hell’s Harvey doin’ sittin’ there next to Dave? Do he knw what Dave come in here to do today?” You know? “Do he know Dave gonna come in here and present somethin’ to us that’s gonna be a hindrance to the church?” And Dave sat there and he- these were Dave’s words, he said “Harvey, you okay?” I said “yeah I’m all right.” He said, uh, “you gonna speak today?” I said “I don’t know if I’m gonna speak today, Dave. It all depends on which way they steer the meetin’.” He- he did like this and he said “’cause I got this here that I’m gonna give HOC,” he said, uh, “it’s gonna hurt the church, but it may not hurt you personally, for what you stand for.” He said, uh, “then you can speak after I speak, then maybe you can clarify and you can straighten it up, like that.” So when he got up to that man and he reach over there, and he, uh, he gave me a letter first, what he was gonna present, what it was going to consist of, I was readin’ that and I said “oh man, wow, how you gonna do that?” And he got up there and… [hits hands on table] gave the letter to HOC, this man gave him the book, and I said “wow! That’s the same book I got, that this lady give me! This lady here, she gave me the book! She asked me was I well, and I told her no, she gave it to me.” He gave it to them, and right now, the county’s using what he said, as the front page they say on this… thing, website or somethin’, what David was sayin’, a record against the HOC, you know, he’s… he’s… and they picked the parts out of it that they wanted to use, and they put it up on the website so that anyone that wanted to could read it. My feelings on the letter that the pastor wrote to offset uh uh what HOC is sayin’, he should be on there, on there, [???] to coincide with that. You know, but, they said they was gonna try to get it on there, but you know I don’t have all that stuff, you know I don’t got… I got a little flip-phone and you call me on my number and I pick up and I talk to you. I ain’t got no emails, no fax machines, no- no nothin’- no, none of that- none of that kind of stuff.

You know, but you ask me how I feel as a whole, I- I feel good. I- I- I have all you on my team to help me, and hope I can- can get somewhere with that, and I had a lot of ladies that went out and got information from- from other white people and media and whatnot and have brought back to us and shared with us, that I would’ve never, been able to get myself from where- from places where they got it from. It’s only they who can get it, they who go back and get stuff that’s been put away, almost like an archive. They can dig it up and give it to them, and- and- and give them insight that the cemetery was there, the county was aware that the cemetery there way back in the day, when they built the high rise, that the cemetery was there, but it was something they had already done, it was gonna go unforgotten about, and nobody was gonna bring it up. Here in 2015, in August, had this little old black guy come from River Road Baptist Church, come in there and said this and said that. I said “Ho! No, no, no. Y’all got to hold up here a minute. Y’all can’t tell me. I was born there, raised there, played there, did this and that, and y’all are going to allege that it wasn’t? Then I can tell y’all that it was. And we- we can take it from there, and I’m gonna hold y’all accountable that there was a cemetery there. And I am gonna do it, and I want you all to show me on record that the cemetery, first y’all are sayin’ that it wasn’t there, okay, and I’m tellin’ you it was there. Then I want y’all to also show me who- transported the bodies from there to somewhere else that you can tell me and show me in writing that it was done, that it was not done. And those folks are still layin’ over there in them clay hills over there by that- by the Westwood Towers. I said, “and I will fight you all ‘til my last dyin’ breath concernin’ – to get justice for those folks who have gone on to glory. I can’t let it go. I had – I had to fight it. I have made it known to my relatives, my friends, my church members, people who know me all around the county, that that cemetery was there. [They see me on the – on that – on the evenin’ news, this that and the other, and I forgot about that too. And see- and see me on the – on the evenin’ news and whatnot, and uh, let me tell her, {phone call interlude}]

I think we're good! We got one hour and six minutes, that's pretty long!

Ha ha ha!

I hope I didn't wear you out.

No, no, no.

I'm sorry, I know it's kind of tiring, but I think it's really important.